Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 11:10 am
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 10:25 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 24th, 2022, 6:58 pm I have sat on the church court of a man whose wife told him after the second child that that was the last time they would have sex. He was excommunicated for adultery. I told the other men there that I thought she should have been excommunicated as well.

Because we don't have the right as spouses to declare impure what the Lord declared pure. We don't have the right to deny the Lord's teaching that spouses become one flesh. I believe defrauding a spouse from the marital intimacy that is implied in the marriage covenant is WRONG and just as bad a sin, in most instances as adultery.

If one of the spouses has a medical issue, then patience is needed. But if they take no action to resolve their medical issue they are betraying their covenants and defrauding their spouse.

If abuse is happening, then divorce generally should take place and I can't imagine intimacy reasonably happening then.

But a spouse that goes into a marriage thinking that they will over a long period of time withhold intimacy or who decides that later on because they feel like it is a despicable person. That's all. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. Only repentance and faith in the Lord can save them.
I think a wife should be willing to sacrifice occasionally for her husband. But what people need to understand is that if the wife is not receiving anything that can be appreciated during sex, and not feeling loved from it, it is not making them one flesh. The idea of one flesh should be the sharing of sexual love gifts, emphasis on the love part. If she is not feeling loved, then it is degrading sex and not pure.

Sex should be about expressing love and procreating, not about the wife sacrificing her body to her husband's lustful desires. If it really was about love and not lust, he would put her before himself, because she has the weaker sex drive. He needs to figure it out instead of giving up and looking at other women. What if she had a medical condition that could not be fixed? Some women have severe pain with intercourse that cannot be fixed, so is this about love, or about expectations, and feeling entitled to something from someone who is weaker than you.

Literally becoming one flesh may not happen in this life. It is more important to show charity. It would only be driving a wedge between them to expect a wife to dutifully endure something that makes her feel used or in pain. This is like any other challenge in life or difficult relationship. Instead of giving up, the husband should go to the Lord to get revelation on how to help his wife. It's his responsibility to make physical affection and intimacy a thing of love for her. If she doesn't like touching, he can ask his wife to stimulate him without him touching her. He has no right to touch her body simply for his own pleasure. Him touching her should only be making her happy, or he is touching her out of lust, not love.
True. The man should put the woman and her needs first. However, if the wife actually put her husband and his needs first instead of worrying about herself and what she got out of everything, as any spouse should, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I know of a man who has given his wife thousands of back and neck rubs because she needs them, in spite of his hands that truly ache. How unfair would it be if his wife felt put upon if he wanted to make love?

If you don't think sex is a need you should try having a high sex drive for a month or two. Then I'd be glad to hear you talk about it. Truly, it isn't a "need" like air or food, but you'd be convinced it is if you could feel that. But it's as much of a need for some men and women as ibuprofen or a deep tissue massage. But some people think that the person with this drive is wicked just for having it, even though they didn't choose it and God have it to them. Carrying each other's burdens so that they might be light doesn't count here 'cause this God given process is disgusting, right?

I guess empathy for each other's position is probably what is needed here, even though we are both struggling with that.
Most wives are naturally compassionate and realize that their husbands have a real urge and desire not equal to theirs. Most wives who've started rejecting sex have already been compassionate to their husband perhaps hundreds of times and where has it gotten them? Feeling sexually unfulfilled, frustrated, and used, and unloved. So telling wives they need to have compassion on their husband's sex drives, I've learned the hard way, is never the answer. The advice always needs to be that the husband needs to have compassion on his wife's feelings or there will never be true love. She has the weaker sexual response, so it's his job to bring her up to his enjoyment level first. If a husband and wife get into a satisfying rhythm where he can get her to orgasm each time, then a wife, recognizing her husband's strong sex drive, will naturally continue to feel compassion and be generous with her giving as much as she is able to do that for her husband. I know there are some really selfish, stubborn women out there, so perhaps with some there isn't a lot of hope, but with unconditional love from a husband, I believe the most stubborn woman can be softened.

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 24th, 2022, 7:32 am
But if you are a eunuch, it is entirely possible that you will be more righteous, but what is even the point of being married? Why be married if you are a eunuch?
At the start of a relationship, if a man told his girlfriend, "Oh, by the way, I had my gonads cut off, I hope this is ok with you"

what would be the response of the woman?

Now, in some relationships, after being married, the woman effectively cuts off his gonads, celebrates it and then demands him to still HONOR HER.

lol. the dark psychology of this speaks for itself.

edit typo
Last edited by FrankOne on September 25th, 2022, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atrasado
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

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Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 11:05 pm I think it might help men to imagine what it would feel like to be raped, to understand how sex can feel for a wife who doesn't enjoy physical intimacy. Women can more easily relate to rape victims because many of them have felt used for the man's pleasure during sex. So probably most men, unless they have been abused or raped, have no idea what it feels like for someone to use your body for their sexual pleasure.

So here's a scenario to imagine: Pretend that a man breaks into your house while you're asleep, ties you up and tells you that unless you let him do whatever he wants with your body, he will drag your wife and children in the room and torture and kill them before your eyes. You don't have much choice anyway because he has you tied up, but you don't put up a fight and allow him to rape you. Imagine what that would feel like. Now realize that this is a taste of what millions of women have gone through with abusive husbands because of tradition, and what almost every woman can relate to who is sexually active. It's not good to think that a wife has a duty to feel this way week after week for years on end with her husband. It's abusive for a husband to shame and guilt-trip her into having sex with him at her expense.
This is one of the most twisted, wicked things I have ever read. If you really think this I pity you. Satan was called the accuser of the brethren. That somehow he's convinced millions of women to have such a selfish, self-victimizing, shriveled, and judgmental attitude is horrifying and hellish. The lack of charity here is astonishing.

I'm sorry, you must feel that I lack charity and that I'm attacking you personally. But if what you've written is right and Satan has driven such a wedge between most husbands and wives then I felt I had to reply.

Abusive men and women who feel entitled to their spouse are very wrong. Abusive men (yes, there are men like this) and women who feel entitled to neglect their spouse are just as wrong. To accuse them in such horrible ways in their hearts is wrong and wrong in such a self-deceiving manner that repentance will be nearly impossible because we can't repent of sins we refuse to see.

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Thinker
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

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Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 11:05 pm I think it might help men to imagine what it would feel like to be raped, to understand how sex can feel for a wife who doesn't enjoy physical intimacy. Women can more easily relate to rape victims because many of them have felt used for the man's pleasure during sex. So probably most men, unless they have been abused or raped, have no idea what it feels like for someone to use your body for their sexual pleasure.

So here's a scenario to imagine: Pretend that a man breaks into your house while you're asleep, ties you up and tells you that unless you let him do whatever he wants with your body, he will drag your wife and children in the room and torture and kill them before your eyes. You don't have much choice anyway because he has you tied up, but you don't put up a fight and allow him to rape you. Imagine what that would feel like. Now realize that this is a taste of what millions of women have gone through with abusive husbands because of tradition, and what almost every woman can relate to who is sexually active. It's not good to think that a wife has a duty to feel this way week after week for years on end with her husband. It's abusive for a husband to shame and guilt-trip her into having sex with him at her expense.
Generally speaking, men struggle to understand where women are coming from sexually (as do women vice versa). That is a good analogy to help a husband begin to understand somewhat how it feels to be emotionally, verbally or otherwise shamed into have sex when his wife is not wanting it.

What can happen when a wife keeps betraying herself to sexually please her husband is compounding resentment that can result in being even more turned off.

Many women never orgasm during sex. God designed women to require more emotionally to be turned on - probably to be more selective in who fathers her children. Men need to be taught that it takes much more for women - generally speaking. He may take it personally, thinking it’s all him - & partly it could be how he treats her - but it’s also just the physiology of women.

So much of what turns on most women has nothing to do with sex - it’s more emotional - feeling intimate, trusting, cherished… etc. Some of that is her responsibility (guiding her own thoughts) & some is her husband’s in establishing trust, connection, talking/listening etc. It takes work, patience - & trial & error. Much easier & quicker to throw in the towel & dream of other women (who by the way, are going to be generally the same, given the same physiology).

And women may not empathize well with being so horny. Marriage is really challenging! A lot of couples fail! Men and women are so different - & then there are individual differences. But I believe it is ordained of God to help us grow most optimally.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 11:05 pm I think it might help men to imagine what it would feel like to be raped, to understand how sex can feel for a wife who doesn't enjoy physical intimacy. Women can more easily relate to rape victims because many of them have felt used for the man's pleasure during sex. So probably most men, unless they have been abused or raped, have no idea what it feels like for someone to use your body for their sexual pleasure.

So here's a scenario to imagine: Pretend that a man breaks into your house while you're asleep, ties you up and tells you that unless you let him do whatever he wants with your body, he will drag your wife and children in the room and torture and kill them before your eyes. You don't have much choice anyway because he has you tied up, but you don't put up a fight and allow him to rape you. Imagine what that would feel like. Now realize that this is a taste of what millions of women have gone through with abusive husbands because of tradition, and what almost every woman can relate to who is sexually active. It's not good to think that a wife has a duty to feel this way week after week for years on end with her husband. It's abusive for a husband to shame and guilt-trip her into having sex with him at her expense.
This is one of the most twisted, wicked things I have ever read. If you really think this I pity you. Satan was called the accuser of the brethren. That somehow he's convinced millions of women to have such a selfish, self-victimizing, shriveled, and judgmental attitude is horrifying and hellish. The lack of charity here is astonishing.

I'm sorry, you must feel that I lack charity and that I'm attacking you personally. But if what you've written is right and Satan has driven such a wedge between most husbands and wives then I felt I had to reply.

Abusive men and women who feel entitled to their spouse are very wrong. Abusive men (yes, there are men like this) and women who feel entitled to neglect their spouse are just as wrong. To accuse them in such horrible ways in their hearts is wrong and wrong in such a self-deceiving manner that repentance will be nearly impossible because we can't repent of sins we refuse to see.
Did you read my response to bbrown on the last page? You need to understand why I gave the rape analogy, and it wasn't to suggest that every woman feels like she is being raped by her husband. But wives do know what it feels like to be feel used by their husband. Do you have an idea of what it might feel like to feel used by someone? That's why I gave the rape example to help you just have an idea of what it might feel like for someone else to use your body to sexually please themselves. I don't know if men ever feel used by women sexually. They would probably love it, so they can't relate.

Atrasado
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Atrasado »

Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 11:05 pm I think it might help men to imagine what it would feel like to be raped, to understand how sex can feel for a wife who doesn't enjoy physical intimacy. Women can more easily relate to rape victims because many of them have felt used for the man's pleasure during sex. So probably most men, unless they have been abused or raped, have no idea what it feels like for someone to use your body for their sexual pleasure.

So here's a scenario to imagine: Pretend that a man breaks into your house while you're asleep, ties you up and tells you that unless you let him do whatever he wants with your body, he will drag your wife and children in the room and torture and kill them before your eyes. You don't have much choice anyway because he has you tied up, but you don't put up a fight and allow him to rape you. Imagine what that would feel like. Now realize that this is a taste of what millions of women have gone through with abusive husbands because of tradition, and what almost every woman can relate to who is sexually active. It's not good to think that a wife has a duty to feel this way week after week for years on end with her husband. It's abusive for a husband to shame and guilt-trip her into having sex with him at her expense.
This is one of the most twisted, wicked things I have ever read. If you really think this I pity you. Satan was called the accuser of the brethren. That somehow he's convinced millions of women to have such a selfish, self-victimizing, shriveled, and judgmental attitude is horrifying and hellish. The lack of charity here is astonishing.

I'm sorry, you must feel that I lack charity and that I'm attacking you personally. But if what you've written is right and Satan has driven such a wedge between most husbands and wives then I felt I had to reply.

Abusive men and women who feel entitled to their spouse are very wrong. Abusive men (yes, there are men like this) and women who feel entitled to neglect their spouse are just as wrong. To accuse them in such horrible ways in their hearts is wrong and wrong in such a self-deceiving manner that repentance will be nearly impossible because we can't repent of sins we refuse to see.
Did you read my response to bbrown on the last page? You need to understand why I gave the rape analogy, and it wasn't to suggest that every woman feels like she is being raped by her husband. But wives do know what it feels like to be feel used by their husband. Do you have an idea of what it might feel like to feel used by someone? That's why I gave the rape example to help you just have an idea of what it might feel like for someone else to use your body to sexually please themselves. I don't know if men ever feel used by women sexually. They would probably love it, so they can't relate.
There are husbands who have been sexually abused, but it's much more likely for a husband to abuse a wife, granted. But many husbands certainly know what it's like to be used. We do know what that's like.

---------

I can feel your disgust about sex when you write about men who "sexually please themselves." As if that's despicable in a marriage. Wow. If we had known that our wives would think of us and our needs so callously I doubt any man would have ever married.

It's funny, many men run themselves into the ground trying to please their wives. We try doing what our wives want, but what they want bounces all over the place so we never know if what we are trying to do will actually make our wives happy. My wife has routinely asked that I do things that are physically uncomfortable and exhausting, and sometimes dangerous, after I've spent all day doing things that are mentally exhausting. And my wife is a great wife.

On the other hand, in many marriages the only thing women have to do to make a husband happy is cheerfully make love to him a couple of times a week. What's that, twenty or thirty minutes a week? Boy, would that be nice.

So, God gives you a magic method for making your husband happy and creating a strong marriage and you run like He's trying to kill you. Would that we men had such a simple and foolproof method for making women happy. But that's either too easy for many women, or they couldn't care less in spite of all they ask us to do. And then they label us as perverts. Thanks. Hearts have indeed grown hard.

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:31 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 11:05 pm I think it might help men to imagine what it would feel like to be raped, to understand how sex can feel for a wife who doesn't enjoy physical intimacy. Women can more easily relate to rape victims because many of them have felt used for the man's pleasure during sex. So probably most men, unless they have been abused or raped, have no idea what it feels like for someone to use your body for their sexual pleasure.

So here's a scenario to imagine: Pretend that a man breaks into your house while you're asleep, ties you up and tells you that unless you let him do whatever he wants with your body, he will drag your wife and children in the room and torture and kill them before your eyes. You don't have much choice anyway because he has you tied up, but you don't put up a fight and allow him to rape you. Imagine what that would feel like. Now realize that this is a taste of what millions of women have gone through with abusive husbands because of tradition, and what almost every woman can relate to who is sexually active. It's not good to think that a wife has a duty to feel this way week after week for years on end with her husband. It's abusive for a husband to shame and guilt-trip her into having sex with him at her expense.
This is one of the most twisted, wicked things I have ever read. If you really think this I pity you. Satan was called the accuser of the brethren. That somehow he's convinced millions of women to have such a selfish, self-victimizing, shriveled, and judgmental attitude is horrifying and hellish. The lack of charity here is astonishing.

I'm sorry, you must feel that I lack charity and that I'm attacking you personally. But if what you've written is right and Satan has driven such a wedge between most husbands and wives then I felt I had to reply.

Abusive men and women who feel entitled to their spouse are very wrong. Abusive men (yes, there are men like this) and women who feel entitled to neglect their spouse are just as wrong. To accuse them in such horrible ways in their hearts is wrong and wrong in such a self-deceiving manner that repentance will be nearly impossible because we can't repent of sins we refuse to see.
Did you read my response to bbrown on the last page? You need to understand why I gave the rape analogy, and it wasn't to suggest that every woman feels like she is being raped by her husband. But wives do know what it feels like to be feel used by their husband. Do you have an idea of what it might feel like to feel used by someone? That's why I gave the rape example to help you just have an idea of what it might feel like for someone else to use your body to sexually please themselves. I don't know if men ever feel used by women sexually. They would probably love it, so they can't relate.
There are husbands who have been sexually abused, but it's much more likely for a husband to abuse a wife, granted. But many husbands certainly know what it's like to be used. We do know what that's like.

---------

I can feel your disgust about sex when you write about men who "sexually please themselves." As if that's despicable in a marriage. Wow. If we had known that our wives would think of us and our needs so callously I doubt any man would have ever married.

It's funny, many men run themselves into the ground trying to please their wives. We try doing what our wives want, but what they want bounces all over the place so we never know if what we are trying to do will actually make our wives happy. My wife has routinely asked that I do things that are physically uncomfortable and exhausting, and sometimes dangerous, after I've spent all day doing things that are mentally exhausting. And my wife is a great wife.

On the other hand, in many marriages the only thing women have to do to make a husband happy is cheerfully make love to him a couple of times a week. What's that, twenty or thirty minutes a week? Boy, would that be nice.

So, God gives you a magic method for making your husband happy and creating a strong marriage and you run like He's trying to kill you. Would that we men had such a simple and foolproof method for making women happy. But that's either too easy for many women, or they couldn't care less in spite of all they ask us to do. And then they label us as perverts. Thanks. Hearts have indeed grown hard.
what you are doing in your post is to ask women to work out their fears, resentment, and insecurity. What these types want is something very different which is what Sarah has repeated. Although her words are not the following, this is what she is asking for the most part:

Men are to adopt the woman's fears , make them their own and call them real. Then men are to soothe those fears instead of reduce them through teaching. Teaching is the enemy to these. The woman, takes a stand! You can't teach me, only God can teach me! (but since God isn't talking to them, they are learning nothing). When I say talking I mean teaching ideas which actually causes inner change, not a soothing bandaid. These teachings bring humility. Humility is the enemy to the modern woman. It's scary! Women are not to be in humility before their husbands!!!!!!!!

I'll try and take the other side of this next time. lol.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:52 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:31 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:11 pm
This is one of the most twisted, wicked things I have ever read. If you really think this I pity you. Satan was called the accuser of the brethren. That somehow he's convinced millions of women to have such a selfish, self-victimizing, shriveled, and judgmental attitude is horrifying and hellish. The lack of charity here is astonishing.

I'm sorry, you must feel that I lack charity and that I'm attacking you personally. But if what you've written is right and Satan has driven such a wedge between most husbands and wives then I felt I had to reply.

Abusive men and women who feel entitled to their spouse are very wrong. Abusive men (yes, there are men like this) and women who feel entitled to neglect their spouse are just as wrong. To accuse them in such horrible ways in their hearts is wrong and wrong in such a self-deceiving manner that repentance will be nearly impossible because we can't repent of sins we refuse to see.
Did you read my response to bbrown on the last page? You need to understand why I gave the rape analogy, and it wasn't to suggest that every woman feels like she is being raped by her husband. But wives do know what it feels like to be feel used by their husband. Do you have an idea of what it might feel like to feel used by someone? That's why I gave the rape example to help you just have an idea of what it might feel like for someone else to use your body to sexually please themselves. I don't know if men ever feel used by women sexually. They would probably love it, so they can't relate.
There are husbands who have been sexually abused, but it's much more likely for a husband to abuse a wife, granted. But many husbands certainly know what it's like to be used. We do know what that's like.

---------

I can feel your disgust about sex when you write about men who "sexually please themselves." As if that's despicable in a marriage. Wow. If we had known that our wives would think of us and our needs so callously I doubt any man would have ever married.

It's funny, many men run themselves into the ground trying to please their wives. We try doing what our wives want, but what they want bounces all over the place so we never know if what we are trying to do will actually make our wives happy. My wife has routinely asked that I do things that are physically uncomfortable and exhausting, and sometimes dangerous, after I've spent all day doing things that are mentally exhausting. And my wife is a great wife.

On the other hand, in many marriages the only thing women have to do to make a husband happy is cheerfully make love to him a couple of times a week. What's that, twenty or thirty minutes a week? Boy, would that be nice.

So, God gives you a magic method for making your husband happy and creating a strong marriage and you run like He's trying to kill you. Would that we men had such a simple and foolproof method for making women happy. But that's either too easy for many women, or they couldn't care less in spite of all they ask us to do. And then they label us as perverts. Thanks. Hearts have indeed grown hard.
what you are doing in your post is to ask women to work out their fears, resentment, and insecurity. What these types want is something very different which is what Sarah has repeated. Although her words are not the following, this is what she is asking for the most part:

Men are to adopt the woman's fears , make them their own and call them real. Then men are to soothe those fears instead of reduce them through teaching. Teaching is the enemy to these. The woman, takes a stand! You can't teach me, only God can teach me! (but since God isn't talking to them, they are learning nothing). When I say talking I mean teaching ideas which actually causes inner change, not a soothing bandaid. These teachings bring humility. Humility is the enemy to the modern woman. It's scary! Women are not to be in humility before their husbands!!!!!!!!

I'll try and take the other side of this next time. lol.
What is he teaching her?

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:18 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:52 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:31 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:33 pm

Did you read my response to bbrown on the last page? You need to understand why I gave the rape analogy, and it wasn't to suggest that every woman feels like she is being raped by her husband. But wives do know what it feels like to be feel used by their husband. Do you have an idea of what it might feel like to feel used by someone? That's why I gave the rape example to help you just have an idea of what it might feel like for someone else to use your body to sexually please themselves. I don't know if men ever feel used by women sexually. They would probably love it, so they can't relate.
There are husbands who have been sexually abused, but it's much more likely for a husband to abuse a wife, granted. But many husbands certainly know what it's like to be used. We do know what that's like.

---------

I can feel your disgust about sex when you write about men who "sexually please themselves." As if that's despicable in a marriage. Wow. If we had known that our wives would think of us and our needs so callously I doubt any man would have ever married.

It's funny, many men run themselves into the ground trying to please their wives. We try doing what our wives want, but what they want bounces all over the place so we never know if what we are trying to do will actually make our wives happy. My wife has routinely asked that I do things that are physically uncomfortable and exhausting, and sometimes dangerous, after I've spent all day doing things that are mentally exhausting. And my wife is a great wife.

On the other hand, in many marriages the only thing women have to do to make a husband happy is cheerfully make love to him a couple of times a week. What's that, twenty or thirty minutes a week? Boy, would that be nice.

So, God gives you a magic method for making your husband happy and creating a strong marriage and you run like He's trying to kill you. Would that we men had such a simple and foolproof method for making women happy. But that's either too easy for many women, or they couldn't care less in spite of all they ask us to do. And then they label us as perverts. Thanks. Hearts have indeed grown hard.
what you are doing in your post is to ask women to work out their fears, resentment, and insecurity. What these types want is something very different which is what Sarah has repeated. Although her words are not the following, this is what she is asking for the most part:

Men are to adopt the woman's fears , make them their own and call them real. Then men are to soothe those fears instead of reduce them through teaching. Teaching is the enemy to these. The woman, takes a stand! You can't teach me, only God can teach me! (but since God isn't talking to them, they are learning nothing). When I say talking I mean teaching ideas which actually causes inner change, not a soothing bandaid. These teachings bring humility. Humility is the enemy to the modern woman. It's scary! Women are not to be in humility before their husbands!!!!!!!!

I'll try and take the other side of this next time. lol.
What is he teaching her?
The curriculum would vary substantially depending on the woman. The core of all of it is the understanding that fears are merely ideas created by our own minds and that emotional pain is caused by personal negative reactions to situations. The tendency to blame the world or the husband is merely a bandaid on a festering thorn created by your own self. Its all about personal responsibility. We feel what we create, not what others do to us. (This does not apply to physical abuse). A kindergarten saying: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

I'm not sure if it would be beneficial to dive into this subject. I'm sure there are books out there on this subject for those that wish to understand it. I'm not motivated to debate it nor engage this further.

Atrasado
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Atrasado »

Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 12:19 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 11:10 am
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 10:25 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 24th, 2022, 6:58 pm I have sat on the church court of a man whose wife told him after the second child that that was the last time they would have sex. He was excommunicated for adultery. I told the other men there that I thought she should have been excommunicated as well.

Because we don't have the right as spouses to declare impure what the Lord declared pure. We don't have the right to deny the Lord's teaching that spouses become one flesh. I believe defrauding a spouse from the marital intimacy that is implied in the marriage covenant is WRONG and just as bad a sin, in most instances as adultery.

If one of the spouses has a medical issue, then patience is needed. But if they take no action to resolve their medical issue they are betraying their covenants and defrauding their spouse.

If abuse is happening, then divorce generally should take place and I can't imagine intimacy reasonably happening then.

But a spouse that goes into a marriage thinking that they will over a long period of time withhold intimacy or who decides that later on because they feel like it is a despicable person. That's all. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. Only repentance and faith in the Lord can save them.
I think a wife should be willing to sacrifice occasionally for her husband. But what people need to understand is that if the wife is not receiving anything that can be appreciated during sex, and not feeling loved from it, it is not making them one flesh. The idea of one flesh should be the sharing of sexual love gifts, emphasis on the love part. If she is not feeling loved, then it is degrading sex and not pure.

Sex should be about expressing love and procreating, not about the wife sacrificing her body to her husband's lustful desires. If it really was about love and not lust, he would put her before himself, because she has the weaker sex drive. He needs to figure it out instead of giving up and looking at other women. What if she had a medical condition that could not be fixed? Some women have severe pain with intercourse that cannot be fixed, so is this about love, or about expectations, and feeling entitled to something from someone who is weaker than you.

Literally becoming one flesh may not happen in this life. It is more important to show charity. It would only be driving a wedge between them to expect a wife to dutifully endure something that makes her feel used or in pain. This is like any other challenge in life or difficult relationship. Instead of giving up, the husband should go to the Lord to get revelation on how to help his wife. It's his responsibility to make physical affection and intimacy a thing of love for her. If she doesn't like touching, he can ask his wife to stimulate him without him touching her. He has no right to touch her body simply for his own pleasure. Him touching her should only be making her happy, or he is touching her out of lust, not love.
True. The man should put the woman and her needs first. However, if the wife actually put her husband and his needs first instead of worrying about herself and what she got out of everything, as any spouse should, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I know of a man who has given his wife thousands of back and neck rubs because she needs them, in spite of his hands that truly ache. How unfair would it be if his wife felt put upon if he wanted to make love?

If you don't think sex is a need you should try having a high sex drive for a month or two. Then I'd be glad to hear you talk about it. Truly, it isn't a "need" like air or food, but you'd be convinced it is if you could feel that. But it's as much of a need for some men and women as ibuprofen or a deep tissue massage. But some people think that the person with this drive is wicked just for having it, even though they didn't choose it and God have it to them. Carrying each other's burdens so that they might be light doesn't count here 'cause this God given process is disgusting, right?

I guess empathy for each other's position is probably what is needed here, even though we are both struggling with that.
Most wives are naturally compassionate and realize that their husbands have a real urge and desire not equal to theirs. Most wives who've started rejecting sex have already been compassionate to their husband perhaps hundreds of times and where has it gotten them? Feeling sexually unfulfilled, frustrated, and used, and unloved. So telling wives they need to have compassion on their husband's sex drives, I've learned the hard way, is never the answer. The advice always needs to be that the husband needs to have compassion on his wife's feelings or there will never be true love. She has the weaker sexual response, so it's his job to bring her up to his enjoyment level first. If a husband and wife get into a satisfying rhythm where he can get her to orgasm each time, then a wife, recognizing her husband's strong sex drive, will naturally continue to feel compassion and be generous with her giving as much as she is able to do that for her husband. I know there are some really selfish, stubborn women out there, so perhaps with some there isn't a lot of hope, but with unconditional love from a husband, I believe the most stubborn woman can be softened.
I agree with you here. But what if the wife thinks that orgasms are dirty? That happens, I've heard. I've heard of some wives who doesn't even like to hear the word.

Sarah, thanks for being so level headed. I have reacted a bit harshly. Sorry. I appreciate your point of view.

I guess this subject is a contentious one to many of us and it brings that out in me. That's why I think I'll check out of this one. Thanks for all the different points of view.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 12:19 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 11:10 am
Sarah wrote: September 24th, 2022, 10:25 pm

I think a wife should be willing to sacrifice occasionally for her husband. But what people need to understand is that if the wife is not receiving anything that can be appreciated during sex, and not feeling loved from it, it is not making them one flesh. The idea of one flesh should be the sharing of sexual love gifts, emphasis on the love part. If she is not feeling loved, then it is degrading sex and not pure.

Sex should be about expressing love and procreating, not about the wife sacrificing her body to her husband's lustful desires. If it really was about love and not lust, he would put her before himself, because she has the weaker sex drive. He needs to figure it out instead of giving up and looking at other women. What if she had a medical condition that could not be fixed? Some women have severe pain with intercourse that cannot be fixed, so is this about love, or about expectations, and feeling entitled to something from someone who is weaker than you.

Literally becoming one flesh may not happen in this life. It is more important to show charity. It would only be driving a wedge between them to expect a wife to dutifully endure something that makes her feel used or in pain. This is like any other challenge in life or difficult relationship. Instead of giving up, the husband should go to the Lord to get revelation on how to help his wife. It's his responsibility to make physical affection and intimacy a thing of love for her. If she doesn't like touching, he can ask his wife to stimulate him without him touching her. He has no right to touch her body simply for his own pleasure. Him touching her should only be making her happy, or he is touching her out of lust, not love.
True. The man should put the woman and her needs first. However, if the wife actually put her husband and his needs first instead of worrying about herself and what she got out of everything, as any spouse should, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I know of a man who has given his wife thousands of back and neck rubs because she needs them, in spite of his hands that truly ache. How unfair would it be if his wife felt put upon if he wanted to make love?

If you don't think sex is a need you should try having a high sex drive for a month or two. Then I'd be glad to hear you talk about it. Truly, it isn't a "need" like air or food, but you'd be convinced it is if you could feel that. But it's as much of a need for some men and women as ibuprofen or a deep tissue massage. But some people think that the person with this drive is wicked just for having it, even though they didn't choose it and God have it to them. Carrying each other's burdens so that they might be light doesn't count here 'cause this God given process is disgusting, right?

I guess empathy for each other's position is probably what is needed here, even though we are both struggling with that.
Most wives are naturally compassionate and realize that their husbands have a real urge and desire not equal to theirs. Most wives who've started rejecting sex have already been compassionate to their husband perhaps hundreds of times and where has it gotten them? Feeling sexually unfulfilled, frustrated, and used, and unloved. So telling wives they need to have compassion on their husband's sex drives, I've learned the hard way, is never the answer. The advice always needs to be that the husband needs to have compassion on his wife's feelings or there will never be true love. She has the weaker sexual response, so it's his job to bring her up to his enjoyment level first. If a husband and wife get into a satisfying rhythm where he can get her to orgasm each time, then a wife, recognizing her husband's strong sex drive, will naturally continue to feel compassion and be generous with her giving as much as she is able to do that for her husband. I know there are some really selfish, stubborn women out there, so perhaps with some there isn't a lot of hope, but with unconditional love from a husband, I believe the most stubborn woman can be softened.
I agree with you here. But what if the wife thinks that orgasms are dirty? That happens, I've heard. I've heard of some wives who doesn't even like to hear the word.

Sarah, thanks for being so level headed. I have reacted a bit harshly. Sorry. I appreciate your point of view.

I guess this subject is a contentious one to many of us and it brings that out in me. That's why I think I'll check out of this one. Thanks for all the different points of view.
Thanks for acknowledging my thoughts. What if she thinks it's dirty? I guess that is a challenge the husband could try to help her overcome, and she also needs to have the desire to overcome her feelings, otherwise, he still needs to respect her agency to accept whether or not she wants him to touch her.

Yes, many women just don't want to bother with sex, and they've given up on themselves enjoying it. I used to be that way. But I continued to give my husband sex and allow him to touch me even though I didn't like it, because I was trying to be like Jesus and sacrifice in order to "love." But I realized my sacrifice wasn't loving, in the sense that it was not what was best for him. He needed to have some tough love and learn some unselfishness himself if our relations were going to be more Celestial. So, just trying to give husbands and wives some hope that a wife can change. But she needs her husband to change, and get rid of selfish behaviors, attitudes, or ignorance.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:32 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:18 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:52 pm
Atrasado wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:31 pm
There are husbands who have been sexually abused, but it's much more likely for a husband to abuse a wife, granted. But many husbands certainly know what it's like to be used. We do know what that's like.

---------

I can feel your disgust about sex when you write about men who "sexually please themselves." As if that's despicable in a marriage. Wow. If we had known that our wives would think of us and our needs so callously I doubt any man would have ever married.

It's funny, many men run themselves into the ground trying to please their wives. We try doing what our wives want, but what they want bounces all over the place so we never know if what we are trying to do will actually make our wives happy. My wife has routinely asked that I do things that are physically uncomfortable and exhausting, and sometimes dangerous, after I've spent all day doing things that are mentally exhausting. And my wife is a great wife.

On the other hand, in many marriages the only thing women have to do to make a husband happy is cheerfully make love to him a couple of times a week. What's that, twenty or thirty minutes a week? Boy, would that be nice.

So, God gives you a magic method for making your husband happy and creating a strong marriage and you run like He's trying to kill you. Would that we men had such a simple and foolproof method for making women happy. But that's either too easy for many women, or they couldn't care less in spite of all they ask us to do. And then they label us as perverts. Thanks. Hearts have indeed grown hard.
what you are doing in your post is to ask women to work out their fears, resentment, and insecurity. What these types want is something very different which is what Sarah has repeated. Although her words are not the following, this is what she is asking for the most part:

Men are to adopt the woman's fears , make them their own and call them real. Then men are to soothe those fears instead of reduce them through teaching. Teaching is the enemy to these. The woman, takes a stand! You can't teach me, only God can teach me! (but since God isn't talking to them, they are learning nothing). When I say talking I mean teaching ideas which actually causes inner change, not a soothing bandaid. These teachings bring humility. Humility is the enemy to the modern woman. It's scary! Women are not to be in humility before their husbands!!!!!!!!

I'll try and take the other side of this next time. lol.
What is he teaching her?
The curriculum would vary substantially depending on the woman. The core of all of it is the understanding that fears are merely ideas created by our own minds and that emotional pain is caused by personal negative reactions to situations. The tendency to blame the world or the husband is merely a bandaid on a festering thorn created by your own self. Its all about personal responsibility. We feel what we create, not what others do to us. (This does not apply to physical abuse). A kindergarten saying: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

I'm not sure if it would be beneficial to dive into this subject. I'm sure there are books out there on this subject for those that wish to understand it. I'm not motivated to debate it nor engage this further.
So regarding this thing about fear and thinking that she just needs to take responsibility to make it go away. I thought of another analogy to help you guys understand the kind of fear I'm talking about.

Let's pretend that husband and wife get married, full of optimism about their physical relationship, and come to find that the husband is not enjoying sex. Why? His body just doesn't allow him to ejaculate. He's able to get excited and have built up tension, but for some reason it just won't go, and he's not even sure how to make it go. So after sex with his wife, he's left feeling uncomfortable and tense, and feels some disappointment, but he still enjoys the build up and being with his wife, and he truly loves her. So he's optimistic this might not be so bad. His wife feels sorry for him that he's not enjoying sex as much as she is, and she doesn't understand why. But she figures he will figure it out.

She continues to come on to him. She wants to make out, have him touch her, she wants to touch him wherever she wants to, have intercourse, and have him bring her to climax. She seems to be loving it, all while her husband just seems to be liking it less and less as he never gets any release. So now, the husband, instead of looking forward to being sexual with his wife, starts to dread it. But he's not sure what to do because he's had the impression his whole life that marriage is for sex. And he knows his wife expects it. But he decides to not act interested as much so hopefully he won't have to endure what he has had to endure as often. But as he does this, it seems like his wife gets disappointed every time he is not interested. He doesn't even like her kissing him because it's just going to get them both worked up. She starts acting hurt that she's not getting sex as often as she wants. She starts acting entitled to other things too, almost as if this is punishment for not giving her the sex she wants. Well all this causes the husband to question if his wife really loves him. She doesn't seem to understand how he feels during sex, and she doesn't seem to care. This causes him to not feel love or attraction for her anymore, and he starts to pull away even more for fear of having to go through awful sex with her, as she demands to be satisfied. If he refuses she will tell him he is being selfish. She starts saying things like, "look at all the work I do, I've given you children and cooked and cleaned for you. The least you could do is to give me sex."

Okay, so do you all get the picture now from this analogy? The fear from a disinterested wife is the fear of feeling bad during sex, just like the husband from my analogy who didn't ejaculate felt bad. That is the fear that needs to be addressed, and the husband isn't going to help his wife overcome her fear of he's acting like this wife acted in my analogy.

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Mangus MacLeod
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

This continues to be a very interesting discussion. And just like married couples, men and women here seem to just keep talking past each other, without really listening, and without really understanding, and just seeking validation of their own positions. I know that happens to me. It’s like many married couples are just waiting, begging, for a responsible adult to step into the fray and help sort it all out, because it can become such a vicious cycle.

Suddenly now my mailbox has started to attract more interest from women too, who are venting their frustrations. Maybe Sarah’s is too. Maybe she’s hearing from tons of women saying, “You tell ‘em Sarah, you go girl.” I don’t know.

What I do know is that both sides are right . . . and wrong. There is no one size fits all for every couple, and every situation, but I do believe it is clear that there are some real basic general rules, and I’m going to discuss a few.

First of all, it is fair to say that women are much, much more complicated than men. For them, the whole experience of caring, loving, affectionate, and satisfying sex — glue— is at least as much emotional as it is physical. Which means that what happens before — long before — and afterward is at least as important, if not more so, than what happens during the few actual satisfying (hopefully) seconds of sexual climax, which are literally just seconds.

In those mere seconds of sexual climax, a man typically experiences two things: a literal physical release that is very pleasurable to him, and an emotional “release” that is even more important to him than the physical release, but highly dependent upon it. Compared to women, men, with their pea-sized brains and bowling ball sized testicles, are very simple. The inherent male sex drive is literally like the law of gravity. It has a gravitational pull that is just as real and undeniable. But it is that male sex drive that becomes many wives’ single biggest sexual frustration, because, among other things, a woman is really not capable of “loving” a man she does not like. No matter how gentle, caring, skillful and affectionate a man might be in the bedroom, if he is a domineering tyrant the rest of the time, neither his wife, nor any other woman, will “want” to make love to him. It is often a very vicious cycle, with both husband and wives perfectly playing their respective roles in removing the glue from their relationship.

Based on the inherent NORMAL male sex drive, which literally builds up and must be satisfied, the less glue there is, the more frustrated and grumpy the man becomes. And the more frustrated and grumpy he becomes, the less his wife feels like wanting to make love to him. He just wants to experience both of the very simple releases he experiences during sexual climax, thereby temporarily — very temporarily — satisfying his undeniable, God-given drive.

And this male sex drive is literally a gift from God that is the primary force behind building entire societies and civilizations. If you really step back, look at the big picture, and understand it, it is this natural drive that has built the world, while the female nurture is continually trying to control it, limit and “domesticate” it.

So, on the woman’s side of the equation, she wants to be affectionately “attended to” all the time. Her inherent female nature and corresponding nurture is much, much more complicated and conditional. Whether consciously or subconsciously, she places all kinds of conditions, primarily emotional conditions, on her willingness to have and be able to enjoy sex. And it is hard to know if she really experiences any actual release at all, or how dependent she is on it. But to a large extent, even under the best of conditions she acts like she could take it or leave it (mostly leave it), If a man doesn’t play his cards just right, she probably wont enjoy it, and may not be very receptive or willing at all. No matter what, she wants to be carefully, affectionately, and skillfully swooned and seduced every time. She wants a man to pay a heavy price for her “love.” She wants a man to start days in advance (or continually). And if there has been any kind of harsh words or treatment it will probably take at least a week just to get over that, and then another week or two of very serious flirting and courting before her complicated female wiring and hormones are sufficiently triggered to the point that she feels any desire to offer any glue to her husband. Meanwhile, he’s bouncing off the walls, bursting at the seams, and ready to go crazy. But the slightest hint of any of this, including any expectation or entitlement, will put her off even more, because it just tells a woman that it’s not actually even “her” he really wants, he just wants/needs to get off.

So, once the man does his very best to wrap his pea-sized brain around all of this, and musters the courage to even attempt to meet his wife’s emotional needs, naively thinking that if he plays his cards just right he might be able to engineer everything so that he will “get lucky” for one night. But none of it has even begun to register with his wife yet. All he can think about is having sex and experiencing his two releases, but he may not even be on her radar yet, and especially in a good way. So he ends up being completely frustrated and disappointed that first night, which makes him feel more frustrated and grumpy than ever. But frustration and grumpiness score zero points with her, so he’s got to shake it off, and keep trying, very patiently, possibly for days, even weeks or months, to see if she might finally show the slightest interest. At that point, the slightest caress might completely undo him, because he’s definitely ready to go. But she’s not. Maybe about then she hits PMS for a few days, then has her period, and is off limits for at least another week. Then something else distracts her attention, while he can’t seem to think about anything else. By then he’s ornery as a bear and ready to go out of his mind. But that is his problem, not hers. His male sex drive is his problem.

So eventually he just starts to give up. He has been disappointed so many times that he just quits really even trying. He figures out that he can at least get a physical release through masturbation, and thereby satisfy the drive, so in a lesser of two evils equation, that will have to do. Masturbation is a whole lot easier than continually trying to seduce and satisfy a jaded woman, and especially a frigid wife. And before long he realizes that as much as he may “want” his wife, he doesn’t really “need” her, and she isn’t satisfying his needs — in fact it doesn’t seem like she is even trying — and why would she? She’s not the one with the big drive and the big motivation to satisfy it, so even in the best case scenario the lesser of two evils approach seems to just make the most sense. It’s a whole lot more simple and less complicated, and it doesn’t actually hurt anyone else, so he just takes care of himself. In a worst case scenario, he looks to satisfy his unmet needs elsewhere.

Either way, I don’t know if women can really even begin to grasp and wrap their minds around what is really going on, and just how vulnerable all of this can make a man in that situation. When a wife rejects/withholds herself from a man, whether consciously and intentionally, or completely unconsciously, because he simply hasn’t been able to satisfy her emotional need threshold yet, either way she is playing with fire. Her attitude is often “phew, that’s a relief, life is so much easier without having to even try to deal with his male sex drive and meet his needs.”

But in the process she is also becoming much more lonely and emotionally vulnerable herself, as all of this can start to have serious long term consequences for her too, as he starts completely ignoring her, and doesn’t even touch or compliment her anymore. He’s doing most of this as a natural defense mechanism, as he tries to protect himself, but it starts to take a serious toll on her too, because she starts to feel unwanted. By now, he’s doing the same thing she is, and they simply give up, reject and/or withhold themselves from each other. In the meantime, their mutual frustrations and needs mount. It becomes the elephant in the room, but they can’t effectively communicate, and when they do, they just point fingers at each other and refuse to acknowledge their own mischief in the whole equation. It’s a vicious cycle that leaves both parties feeling like victims.

Obviously, the whole thing is a tough, complicated equation, and the sort of thing that can motivate a selfish, Neanderthal-like man to start think about things like plural marriage as a possible viable means of solving his problem. In the meantime, both sides really ought to try to understand the fire they are actually playing with when they take the glue out of the equation, because the self-evident truth is that it is a recipe for marital, family, and societal disaster.

So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Who is the responsible adult in the room?
Last edited by Mangus MacLeod on September 26th, 2022, 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Jonesy
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Jonesy »

*sigh* I was going to leave this alone, and I hesitate to say anything, but what the heck…

I’m strictly speaking for me!

In my limited experience, and speaking on the man’s side, I think a big key is learning to subdue those natural inclinations (and they CAN be). To be clear, it is NOT for the man to be tamed by his wife—because it ain’t gonna happen. And if it does, you ain’t a man no more.

Once I learned that, after being declined sex (and there are good reasons), I can be okay and not get angry nor resort to pornography and masturbation, my brain snapped. I personally believe this absolutely must happen. The man has to realize that he also has the power to harness his own wolf spirit. You just have to figure this part out and experience this mental snap.

You’ll see that you can hug or kiss and be just fine. Maybe hold off on the cuddling… Lol

After this, the man owns the power, and it becomes a natural game where he is now in control of his own destiny. He’s a natural hunter. And if he wants to go in for the kill, he must find out what the woman wants—and only she can tell you, and he must listen. And she will tell you—if you’re listening. After DOING it, then sometimes it’s all a matter of waiting and going in for the kill. If you’re good, and you’ll get good, then she will willingly come to you on her own. It becomes a natural thing.

I’m a pleaser, and my wife is an open communicator. So, that helps, too. No, not there, here. Not like that, like this. Yes, ma’am! From there, she’ll stop communicating (being the teacher) and instead call you the master. Sex has only gotten better—for the both of us.

This can take time, I realize. Trust me.

Now, in the case where the woman refuses or has lost trust, or she’s just not into it….I don’t know. Speaking for myself, if there has to be a time where it was over for whatever reason, then I would deal. For me, only when my mind is chaste will my body take care of itself—guys, you know what I mean. And I’m going to use this annoying word again, righteous. Yes, sometimes it may be righteous to do so. I believe there were holy men who did not get to experience all the fireworks in this life. But that’s ok, because there is SO much more to it than these temporary highlights, and to be completely victorious over it is worth it. You have to be willing to lose your life to gain it.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Jonesy wrote: September 26th, 2022, 7:02 am *sigh* I was going to leave this alone, and I hesitate to say anything, but what the heck…

I’m strictly speaking for me!

In my limited experience, and speaking on the man’s side, I think a big key is learning to subdue those natural inclinations (and they CAN be). To be clear, it is NOT for the man to be tamed by his wife—because it ain’t gonna happen. And if it does, you ain’t a man no more.

Once I learned that, after being declined sex (and there are good reasons), I can be okay and not get angry nor resort to pornography and masturbation, my brain snapped. I personally believe this absolutely must happen. The man has to realize that he also has the power to harness his own wolf spirit. You just have to figure this part out and experience this mental snap.

You’ll see that you can hug or kiss and be just fine. Maybe hold off on the cuddling… Lol

After this, the man owns the power, and it becomes a natural game where he is now in control of his own destiny. He’s a natural hunter. And if he wants to go in for the kill, he must find out what the woman wants—and only she can tell you, and he must listen. And she will tell you—if you’re listening. After DOING it, then sometimes it’s all a matter of waiting and going in for the kill. If you’re good, and you’ll get good, then she will willingly come to you on her own. It becomes a natural thing.

I’m a pleaser, and my wife is an open communicator. So, that helps, too. No, not there, here. Not like that, like this. Yes, ma’am! From there, she’ll stop communicating (being the teacher) and instead call you the master. Sex has only gotten better—for the both of us.

This can take time, I realize. Trust me.

Now, in the case where the woman refuses or has lost trust, or she’s just not into it….I don’t know. Speaking for myself, if there has to be a time where it was over for whatever reason, then I would deal. For me, only when my mind is chaste will my body take care of itself—guys, you know what I mean. And I’m going to use this annoying word again, righteous. Yes, sometimes it may be righteous to do so. I believe there were holy men who did not get to experience all the fireworks in this life. But that’s ok, because there is SO much more to it than these temporary highlights, and to be completely victorious over it is worth it. You have to be willing to lose your life to gain it.
Well said👍

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tmac
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by tmac »

Just curious, Jonesy, how old are you? I might have said all the same things at 35-45.

But just to test your “righteous” theory, mentally neuter yourself; completely bridle yourself, and completely abstain for 10 years, and then come back and talk about your wonderful, righteous experience.

Until you do that you’re talking pure theory, all righteous form and talk, with questionable substance to back it up.

After people drop words like righteous and worthy enough times as if they have any actual real measurable meaning, I realize that they probably just lack broader experience and perspective.

It’s like the old saying about pessimists — all most pessimists are is simply optimists with experience.

With all due respect, you’re sounding like a preachy woman. The answer to everything is more righteousness. If we were all just more righteous, it would fix everything. If we could just all be perfect, the world would be perfect. *Heavy Sigh*

But, *Sigh*, it must be so hard to try to righteously teach such a bunch of carnal, crusty old cavemen. If we all just wanted to, we could live happily in a world without glue, as MM calls it. It must be so painful to have to deal with mere mortals.
Last edited by tmac on September 26th, 2022, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Thinker
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Thinker »

It’s not that all men are crusty old horn dogs & all women are emotional prudes - though some have painted it this way. Probably because it’s easier to shift the blame & response-ability. But that gets nowhere fast.

Men & women are different (Mars/Venus). Expecting the opposite sex to be like oneself is ignorant & bound to lead to frustration. Each has potential to help the other - marriage is to have help-mates. The only way to make a marriage thrive is to each be humble & willing to learn - even eager to grow individually & as a couple… while not giving up who they are. “It’s great when a couple becomes 1, the problems arise when they decide which 1.”

Btw, I see it as a healthy sign this thread has evolved into the heart of the matter of why polygamy is discussed ad nauseam: frustrated sex.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 26th, 2022, 5:43 am This continues to be a very interesting discussion. And just like married couples, men and women here seem to just keep talking past each other, without really listening, and without really understanding, and just seeking validation of their own positions.
Excellent summary.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 26th, 2022, 5:43 am This continues to be a very interesting discussion. And just like married couples, men and women here seem to just keep talking past each other, without really listening, and without really understanding, and just seeking validation of their own positions. I know that happens to me. It’s like many married couples are just waiting, begging, for a responsible adult to step into the fray and help sort it all out, because it can become such a vicious cycle.

Suddenly now my mailbox has started to attract more interest from women too, who are venting their frustrations. Maybe Sarah’s is too. Maybe she’s hearing from tons of women saying, “You tell ‘em Sarah, you go girl.” I don’t know.

What I do know is that both sides are right . . . and wrong. There is no one size fits all for every couple, and every situation, but I do believe it is clear that there are some real basic general rules, and I’m going to discuss a few.

First of all, it is fair to say that women are much, much more complicated than men. For them, the whole experience of caring, loving, affectionate, and satisfying sex — glue— is at least as much emotional as it is physical. Which means that what happens before — long before — and afterward is at least as important, if not more so, than what happens during the few actual satisfying (hopefully) seconds of sexual climax, which are literally just seconds.

In those mere seconds of sexual climax, a man typically experiences two things: a literal physical release that is very pleasurable to him, and an emotional “release” that is even more important to him than the physical release, but highly dependent upon it. Compared to women, men, with their pea-sized brains and bowling ball sized testicles, are very simple. The inherent male sex drive is literally like the law of gravity. It has a gravitational pull that is just as real and undeniable. But it is that male sex drive that becomes many wives’ single biggest sexual frustration, because, among other things, a woman is really not capable of “loving” a man she does not like. No matter how gentle, caring, skillful and affectionate a man might be in the bedroom, if he is a domineering tyrant the rest of the time, neither his wife, nor any other woman, will “want” to make love to him. It is often a very vicious cycle, with both husband and wives perfectly playing their respective roles in removing the glue from their relationship.

Based on the inherent NORMAL male sex drive, which literally builds up and must be satisfied, the less glue there is, the more frustrated and grumpy the man becomes. And the more frustrated and grumpy he becomes, the less his wife feels like wanting to make love to him. He just wants to experience both of the very simple releases he experiences during sexual climax, thereby temporarily — very temporarily — satisfying his undeniable, God-given drive.

And this male sex drive is literally a gift from God that is the primary force behind building entire societies and civilizations. If you really step back, look at the big picture, and understand it, it is this natural drive that has built the world, while the female nurture is continually trying to control it, limit and “domesticate” it.

So, on the woman’s side of the equation, she wants to be affectionately “attended to” all the time. Her inherent female nature and corresponding nurture is much, much more complicated and conditional. Whether consciously or subconsciously, she places all kinds of conditions, primarily emotional conditions, on her willingness to have and be able to enjoy sex. And it is hard to know if she really experiences any actual release at all, or how dependent she is on it. But to a large extent, even under the best of conditions she acts like she could take it or leave it (mostly leave it), If a man doesn’t play his cards just right, she probably wont enjoy it, and may not be very receptive or willing at all. No matter what, she wants to be carefully, affectionately, and skillfully swooned and seduced every time. She wants a man to pay a heavy price for her “love.” She wants a man to start days in advance (or continually). And if there has been any kind of harsh words or treatment it will probably take at least a week just to get over that, and then another week or two of very serious flirting and courting before her complicated female wiring and hormones are sufficiently triggered to the point that she feels any desire to offer any glue to her husband. Meanwhile, he’s bouncing off the walls, bursting at the seams, and ready to go crazy. But the slightest hint of any of this, including any expectation or entitlement, will put her off even more, because it just tells a woman that it’s not actually even “her” he really wants, he just wants/needs to get off.

So, once the man does his very best to wrap his pea-sized brain around all of this, and musters the courage to even attempt to meet his wife’s emotional needs, naively thinking that if he plays his cards just right he might be able to engineer everything so that he will “get lucky” for one night. But none of it has even begun to register with his wife yet. All he can think about is having sex and experiencing his two releases, but he may not even be on her radar yet, and especially in a good way. So he ends up being completely frustrated and disappointed that first night, which makes him feel more frustrated and grumpy than ever. But frustration and grumpiness score zero points with her, so he’s got to shake it off, and keep trying, very patiently, possibly for days, even weeks or months, to see if she might finally show the slightest interest. At that point, the slightest caress might completely undo him, because he’s definitely ready to go. But she’s not. Maybe about then she hits PMS for a few days, then has her period, and is off limits for at least another week. Then something else distracts her attention, while he can’t seem to think about anything else. By then he’s ornery as a bear and ready to go out of his mind. But that is his problem, not hers. His male sex drive is his problem.

So eventually he just starts to give up. He has been disappointed so many times that he just quits really even trying. He figures out that he can at least get a physical release through masturbation, and thereby satisfy the drive, so in a lesser of two evils equation, that will have to do. And before long he realizes that as much as he may “want” his wife, he doesn’t really “need” her, and she isn’t satisfying his needs — in fact it doesn’t seem like she is even trying — and why would she? She’s not the one with the big drive and the big motivation to satisfy it, so even in the best case scenario the lesser of two evils approach seems to just make the most sense. It’s a whole lot more simple and less complicated, and it doesn’t actually hurt anyone else, so he just takes care of himself. In a worst case scenario, he looks to satisfy his unmet needs elsewhere.

Either way, I don’t know if women can really even begin to grasp and wrap their minds around what is really going on, and just how vulnerable all of this can make a man in that situation. When a wife withholds herself from a man, whether consciously and intentionally, or completely unconsciously, because he simply hasn’t been able to satisfy her emotional need threshold yet, either way she is playing with fire. Her attitude is often “phew, that’s a relief, life is so much easier without having to even try to deal with his male sex drive and meet his needs.”

But in the process she is also becoming much more lonely and emotionally vulnerable herself, as all of this can start to have serious long term consequences for her too, as he starts completely ignoring her, and doesn’t even touch or compliment her anymore. He’s doing most of this as a natural defense mechanism, as he tries to protect himself, but it starts to take a serious toll on her too, because she starts to feel unwanted. By now, he’s doing the same thing she is, and they are withholding themselves from each other. In the meantime, their mutual frustrations and needs mount. It becomes the elephant in the room, but they can’t effectively communicate, and when they do, they just point fingers at each other and refuse to acknowledge their own mischief in the whole equation. It’s a vicious cycle that leaves both parties feeling like victims.

Obviously, the whole thing is a tough, complicated equation, and the sort of thing that can motivate a selfish, Neanderthal-like man to start think about things like plural marriage as a possible viable means of solving his problem. In the meantime, both sides really ought to try to understand the fire they are actually playing with when they take the glue out of the equation, because the self-evident truth is that it is a recipe for marital, family, and societal disaster.

So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Who is the responsible adult in the room?
This post of yours I think fairly describes what many men and women are feeling, so thanks for putting your view into words. I know it seems like I was defending the frigid woman who refused or rejected (which is the more appropriate word than withholding) sex, but as I mentioned, that was never me. I realized how hard it was for my husband and had sympathy for these important needs he had. So I hope both husbands and wives see my posts in the light of helping us to understand the frigid wife's feelings, rather than think I am promoting or condoning her actions. She'll be judged someday based on the feelings of her heart, and we each will be compensated to the degree we are willing to sacrifice for one another.
And no Mangus, I haven't had my inbox filling up, so you're the man in that regard. What are some of the views you're getting from the woman side of things?

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

Sarah wrote: September 26th, 2022, 10:22 am This post of yours I think fairly describes what many men and women are feeling, so thanks for putting your view into words. I know it seems like I was defending the frigid woman who refused or rejected (which is the more appropriate word than withholding) sex, but as I mentioned, that was never me. I realized how hard it was for my husband and had sympathy for these important needs he had. So I hope both husbands and wives see my posts in the light of helping us to understand the frigid wife's feelings, rather than think I am promoting or condoning her actions. She'll be judged someday based on the feelings of her heart, and we each will be compensated to the degree we are willing to sacrifice for one another.
Thank you for this. I thought you were defending and I appreciate knowing where your really stand.

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Mangus MacLeod
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

What are some of the views you're getting from the woman side of things?
I’m seeing quite a bit of variety, but birds of a feather flock together. As a general rule, women seem to struggle to understand the normal, natural male sexual drive as much as men struggle to understand women. Consequently, there is plenty of the frustration we have identified — mostly directed at the male sex drive, and corresponding peanut-sized brain, which tend to make men so slow in the uptake about some things.

So, I still have to put on my Revtevya hat, and look heavenward and ask: why did You do it this way? Why does it have to be so complicated? Why does it have to be so hard?

But setting so-called righteousness and all such vague, ambiguous and relative concepts aside, I can’t help but recognize the self-evident truth that “but for” the male sex drive, nothing would happen; there would be no procreation, and; the human species would become extinct. You can try to be as righteous as you want, but without the glue, there ain’t gonna be nobody left to be righteous.
Last edited by Mangus MacLeod on September 26th, 2022, 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

HereWeGo wrote: September 26th, 2022, 10:34 am
Sarah wrote: September 26th, 2022, 10:22 am This post of yours I think fairly describes what many men and women are feeling, so thanks for putting your view into words. I know it seems like I was defending the frigid woman who refused or rejected (which is the more appropriate word than withholding) sex, but as I mentioned, that was never me. I realized how hard it was for my husband and had sympathy for these important needs he had. So I hope both husbands and wives see my posts in the light of helping us to understand the frigid wife's feelings, rather than think I am promoting or condoning her actions. She'll be judged someday based on the feelings of her heart, and we each will be compensated to the degree we are willing to sacrifice for one another.
Thank you for this. I thought you were defending and I appreciate knowing where your really stand.
Thanks. I realize that I was confusing because I did morally justifiy a fridged woman's choice, and I still stand by that, as I feel it's morally acceptable for both spouses to have a choice in the matter of sex, and it's a greater moral wrong for another to feel entitled to someone's sacrifice. Kind of like I also think it's morally wrong to expect a wife to bear a certain number of children that a husband feels she should be able to sacrifice for. Or a wife who feels entitled to her husband's sacrifices at work. Maybe she can sacrifice more and give more children or sex, but maybe the husband could sacrifice more too to provide more. It's a person's choice how much they want to sacrifice and we shouldn't shame others for not sacrificing more.

One of my arguments was that sex was easy for him, hard for her, just like if you were trying to play basketball with your child and you had more success than your child.

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Mangus MacLeod
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

Btw, I see it as a healthy sign this thread has evolved into the heart of the matter of why polygamy is discussed ad nauseam: frustrated sex.
I think this is a useful observation for several reasons. First of all it does acknowledge and identify the real issue; it explains why so many men are obsessed with it, and love to discuss it ad nausea, and; hopefully it will help some wives understand that at some point it might not all be just talk. At a certain point a husband just might actually do something about it. In any event, hopefully it can help some people understand and start proactively working toward a satisfactory answer and resolution. Personally, from my perspective, if a wife sees that for whatever reason she simply cannot meet her husband’s completely normal needs, and she decides that employing the Law of Sarah might be a good idea to help do that, I have no problem with that.

This may sound kind of hard-nosed, but I do believe a wife has some actual, constructive contractual obligation to put forth a good faith effort to meet his needs, jus as he has a corresponding obligation to try to meet her needs.

I do have a problem with the seemingly growing female perspective that a wife has no obligation of any kind to help meet her husband’s needs. On that score, I do agree with Atrasado, that depending on the circumstances and what happens, a withholding wife might be held responsible for the corresponding consequences in equal measure. That is the thing about this as well as most natural laws, there are natural consequences.
Last edited by Mangus MacLeod on September 26th, 2022, 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 10:25 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:32 pm
Sarah wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:18 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:52 pm

what you are doing in your post is to ask women to work out their fears, resentment, and insecurity. What these types want is something very different which is what Sarah has repeated. Although her words are not the following, this is what she is asking for the most part:

Men are to adopt the woman's fears , make them their own and call them real. Then men are to soothe those fears instead of reduce them through teaching. Teaching is the enemy to these. The woman, takes a stand! You can't teach me, only God can teach me! (but since God isn't talking to them, they are learning nothing). When I say talking I mean teaching ideas which actually causes inner change, not a soothing bandaid. These teachings bring humility. Humility is the enemy to the modern woman. It's scary! Women are not to be in humility before their husbands!!!!!!!!

I'll try and take the other side of this next time. lol.
What is he teaching her?
The curriculum would vary substantially depending on the woman. The core of all of it is the understanding that fears are merely ideas created by our own minds and that emotional pain is caused by personal negative reactions to situations. The tendency to blame the world or the husband is merely a bandaid on a festering thorn created by your own self. Its all about personal responsibility. We feel what we create, not what others do to us. (This does not apply to physical abuse). A kindergarten saying: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

I'm not sure if it would be beneficial to dive into this subject. I'm sure there are books out there on this subject for those that wish to understand it. I'm not motivated to debate it nor engage this further.
So regarding this thing about fear and thinking that she just needs to take responsibility to make it go away. I thought of another analogy to help you guys understand the kind of fear I'm talking about.

Let's pretend that husband and wife get married, full of optimism about their physical relationship, and come to find that the husband is not enjoying sex. Why? His body just doesn't allow him to ejaculate. He's able to get excited and have built up tension, but for some reason it just won't go, and he's not even sure how to make it go. So after sex with his wife, he's left feeling uncomfortable and tense, and feels some disappointment, but he still enjoys the build up and being with his wife, and he truly loves her. So he's optimistic this might not be so bad. His wife feels sorry for him that he's not enjoying sex as much as she is, and she doesn't understand why. But she figures he will figure it out.

She continues to come on to him. She wants to make out, have him touch her, she wants to touch him wherever she wants to, have intercourse, and have him bring her to climax. She seems to be loving it, all while her husband just seems to be liking it less and less as he never gets any release. So now, the husband, instead of looking forward to being sexual with his wife, starts to dread it. But he's not sure what to do because he's had the impression his whole life that marriage is for sex. And he knows his wife expects it. But he decides to not act interested as much so hopefully he won't have to endure what he has had to endure as often. But as he does this, it seems like his wife gets disappointed every time he is not interested. He doesn't even like her kissing him because it's just going to get them both worked up. She starts acting hurt that she's not getting sex as often as she wants. She starts acting entitled to other things too, almost as if this is punishment for not giving her the sex she wants. Well all this causes the husband to question if his wife really loves him. She doesn't seem to understand how he feels during sex, and she doesn't seem to care. This causes him to not feel love or attraction for her anymore, and he starts to pull away even more for fear of having to go through awful sex with her, as she demands to be satisfied. If he refuses she will tell him he is being selfish. She starts saying things like, "look at all the work I do, I've given you children and cooked and cleaned for you. The least you could do is to give me sex."

Okay, so do you all get the picture now from this analogy? The fear from a disinterested wife is the fear of feeling bad during sex, just like the husband from my analogy who didn't ejaculate felt bad. That is the fear that needs to be addressed, and the husband isn't going to help his wife overcome her fear of he's acting like this wife acted in my analogy.
As was evident, I gave the general basis of what fear is and does and how it starts. It only exists in the mind and is created by the victim, not the perceived attacker. (again, not relative to physical abuse). I did not address the problem of resentment within a woman which also has it's foundation in fear. Fear turns to anger in order to defend oneself. The defense isn't founded in reality and has no true strength because the perceived attacker didn't cause the problem.

Fear is a feeling that exists when a desired condition is threatened by an outside force.

The problem is desire. Selfishness, the desire to be in control, the desire to "do what one wants". The desire to be included. The desire to have a say. The desire to be important. The desire to feel appreciated. The desire for respect. The desire for reciprocation. These are just a few of them. I am not saying that any person could be completely free from these desires. But...when these desires rule a person, then in comes fear and with most, resentment. With men, it may just skip directly to resentment and anger. From there, it just runs wild into various dark places like a mad dog running into the abyss. Relationships destroyed, families destroyed, society is destroyed.

So, to link the above all together for the subject of this thread; When a woman's desire is threatened or violated by her husband, she feels fear and resentment. She blames her husband instead of her DESIRES.

The teaching is for her to let go of the insecure or demanding desires in her heart. Yah, it's a long process. LIFE LONG.


It's about becoming a mature person. It's the learning process of all of us.

If the husband doesn't have the tools or mindset to be able to teach the wife, then the finding of a good therapist would be in order. Finding a therapist that actually will identify and treat the problem rather than provide salve for the problem is next to impossible in this day and age. Most therapists believe that fear and trauma are caused by an outside force.

The world needs therapy. Therapists need therapy.

Everyone now wants to validate fear and then treat it with a bandaid, a massage, a foot rub and pleasant soothing words. Almost no one wants to remove the thorn that causes the festering fear. Pulling out a thorn is painful and who wants to deal with that? Just about no one. Give me a foot rub. Use the oil. Soothe my fears honey. (Although I made fun of these things, the foregoing is a wise course WHILE teaching)

As I said earlier, to dive further into this subject, past the generalities that I've discussed, is something that goes too deep and too long for a discussion on this forum.

P.S. - I reread this a few times for typos. As I did, I felt the sword of truth sticking into me as I saw my own desires being 'attacked' by what I wrote. ah..well.... life. Live and learn. ...or not. Yah...this applies to all of us.

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Jonesy
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Jonesy »

tmac wrote: September 26th, 2022, 7:36 am Just curious, Jonesy, how old are you? I might have said all the same things at 35-45.

But just to test your “righteous” theory, mentally neuter yourself; completely bridle yourself, and completely abstain for 10 years, and then come back and talk about your wonderful, righteous experience.

Until you do that you’re talking pure theory, all righteous form and talk, with questionable substance to back it up.

After people drop words like righteous and worthy enough times as if they have any actual real measurable meaning, I realize that they probably just lack broader experience and perspective.

It’s like the old saying about pessimists — all most pessimists are is simply optimists with experience.

With all due respect, you’re sounding like a preachy woman. The answer to everything is more righteousness. If we were all just more righteous, it would fix everything. If we could just all be perfect, the world would be perfect. *Heavy Sigh*

But, *Sigh*, it must be so hard to try to righteously teach such a bunch of carnal, crusty old cavemen. If we all just wanted to, we could live happily in a world without glue, as MM calls it. It must be so painful to have to deal with mere mortals.
Bingo. I’m in the latter end.

My intent from the beginning was to tell MY truth—stated at the forefront. And my hesitation was in having to open up about these things.

I completely understand that the more I learn, the less I know. Ego is not our amigo.

I don’t know anything, and I’m not righteous.

I am absolutely limited to my experiences—that’s all I know. My only intent in using “righteous” in my last post was to recognize those who had to live and master their God-given instincts. And *I only* accept that fate as well if needs be, but I’ll cross that bridge if/when it comes. My understanding is that during tribulations, the end times, those natural desires that we have not mastered are only going to resurface with a vengeance. It’s better to master those now in whatever way you see fit.

As far as sounding like a preachy woman, I’ll work on that. Those things were just in me to say and I hope that good can be made of it. I am accepting of whatever it is that you think is righteous in this situation—not just what I think it is.

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