Man Among the Gentiles

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Robin Hood
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Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 9th, 2022, 7:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:20 am
Being There wrote: September 9th, 2022, 12:24 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:16 pm

You're conflating two different things.
You're claiming they fled Europe to escape captivity... but they didn't because they were still in captivity in the new world and had to have a war to get out of it.
So perhaps you could clarify what you mean. What was the nature of the captivity from which they fled in Europe?
you've been in England too long under her majesty rule. :lol: ,
but maybe things will change, now that she's dead.
I think many Americans don't understand the British constitutional monarchy. Why would they!
The monarch is of no consequence to most Britons. The king reigns with the permission of parliament and has no real influence on our everyday lives. None at all.
Thankfully, the monarch is required to be strictly a-political. When we look across the pond at the shenanigins surrounding US presidents past and present, we are mostly thankful our head of state is above and outwith all of that nonsense.
For some reason, many Americans assume they're the only ones who have freedom. Magna Carta anyone?
I’m glad you guys could learn a thing or two from the Constitution.

Unfortunately most Americans don’t value it much these days.
Wrong way round mate
The Magna Carta predates the US Constitution by several hundred years, and was used as it's foundation.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:26 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 9th, 2022, 7:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:20 am
Being There wrote: September 9th, 2022, 12:24 am

you've been in England too long under her majesty rule. :lol: ,
but maybe things will change, now that she's dead.
I think many Americans don't understand the British constitutional monarchy. Why would they!
The monarch is of no consequence to most Britons. The king reigns with the permission of parliament and has no real influence on our everyday lives. None at all.
Thankfully, the monarch is required to be strictly a-political. When we look across the pond at the shenanigins surrounding US presidents past and present, we are mostly thankful our head of state is above and outwith all of that nonsense.
For some reason, many Americans assume they're the only ones who have freedom. Magna Carta anyone?
I’m glad you guys could learn a thing or two from the Constitution.

Unfortunately most Americans don’t value it much these days.
Wrong way round mate
The Magna Carta predates the US Constitution by several hundred years, and was used as it's foundation.
I know, you guys had the Magna Carta... and still couldn't get things right.

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:33 pm
Robin Hood wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:26 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 9th, 2022, 7:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 9th, 2022, 2:20 am

I think many Americans don't understand the British constitutional monarchy. Why would they!
The monarch is of no consequence to most Britons. The king reigns with the permission of parliament and has no real influence on our everyday lives. None at all.
Thankfully, the monarch is required to be strictly a-political. When we look across the pond at the shenanigins surrounding US presidents past and present, we are mostly thankful our head of state is above and outwith all of that nonsense.
For some reason, many Americans assume they're the only ones who have freedom. Magna Carta anyone?
I’m glad you guys could learn a thing or two from the Constitution.

Unfortunately most Americans don’t value it much these days.
Wrong way round mate
The Magna Carta predates the US Constitution by several hundred years, and was used as it's foundation.
I know, you guys had the Magna Carta... and still couldn't get things right.
I'm glad some Americans I've met are educated

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CaptainM
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Posts: 639
Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by CaptainM »

A fascinating possibility. No way it was Columbus...

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Shawn Henry
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Posts: 4507

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Shawn Henry »

So, Columbus's party would cut of the hands, feet, and noses of the natives, rape the women, and swing the babies by their feet bashing their heads into a stone.

So that's why Brighamites like him.

JuneBug12000
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Posts: 2066

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Robin Hood wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:15 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 8th, 2022, 6:24 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 7th, 2022, 11:49 pm

But neither Columbus or those who came after were generally in captivity.
Many Puritans had been persecuted and sought a new land. Many of them went to Holland at first.
I used to live in Boston in Lincolnshire. Boston, Mass. was named in honour of the people of the English town who refused to imprison or persecute the Puritans. Many of them sailed from Boston to Holland.

Whoever the man is, it isn't Columbus. John Cobot is a better candidate in my view.
He is talking about the Gentiles who fled Europe and the very reason why we engaged in the Revolutionary War.
Those that "fled" Europe and went to the colonies weren't in captivity. They wanted religious liberty, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they were captive.
They were captive. History of Plymouth Plantation, William Bradfords journal, describes their captivity.

As they sought to flee England for Holland they were, in fact, arrested and held captive.

Why not just let them go? They did eventually, as much as anything because they didn't know what to do with all the women and children.

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by larsenb »

CaptainM wrote: August 30th, 2023, 9:27 am A fascinating possibility. No way it was Columbus...
No way it was John Elliot.

The passage in 1st Nephi strongly implies that "the man among the gentiles" was the first gentile to make connection with his seed, followed by many more.

Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did. And attributing atrocities cited in the OP to Columbus doesn't cut it. The story of Columbus is quite complex and nuanced. He wasn't perfect, and did do some not very good things. But early on there were factions opposing him who were not as adverse in forcing the 'Indian's to do their bidding, to include forced conversion, and who were dedicated to accumulating wealth at the expense of the indigenous population.

Isabela, herself, was very opposed to forced conversion, or mistreating the natives. Perhaps the premier prelate among the early Spanish occupants, who defended the natives and abhorred the atrocities committed against them was Bartolome de Las Casas, who spent decades and in many writings and efforts to have them treated humanely.

You can delve into the complexities of the 'discovery of America' by Columbus, in the book: Conquistadores - A New History of Spanish Discovery and Conquest, by Fernando Cervantes, 2021. A most excellent book. I highly recommend it.

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CaptainM
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Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by CaptainM »

larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:12 pm
CaptainM wrote: August 30th, 2023, 9:27 am A fascinating possibility. No way it was Columbus...
No way it was John Elliot.

The passage in 1st Nephi strongly implies that "the man among the gentiles" was the first gentile to make connection with his seed, followed by many more.

Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did. And attributing atrocities cited in the OP to Columbus doesn't cut it. The story of Columbus is quite complex and nuanced. He wasn't perfect, and did do some not very good things. But early on there were factions opposing him who were not as adverse in forcing the 'Indian's to do their bidding, to include forced conversion, and who were dedicated to accumulating wealth at the expense of the indigenous population.

Isabela, herself, was very opposed to forced conversion, or mistreating the natives. Perhaps the premier prelate among the early Spanish occupants, who defended the natives and abhorred the atrocities committed against them was Bartolome de Las Casas, who spent decades and in many writings and efforts to have them treated humanely.

You can delve into the complexities of the 'discovery of America' by Columbus, in the book: Conquistadores - A New History of Spanish Discovery and Conquest, by Fernando Cervantes, 2021. A most excellent book. I highly recommend it.
I’m sorry but you feel there’s something implied? Please make your case.

Did you watch the video?

Have you made an unbiased search of how evil Columbus was to rob and rape the indigenous American population. How could someone so evil and corrupt have the Holy Ghost?

Not sure why tcojcolds clings to Columbus. I think maybe because Joseph Smith performed the same egg trick as CC. Also Wilford Woodruff made up a fable about the founding fathers visiting him in the St. George temple which purportedly included CC. I guess same minds congregate.
Last edited by CaptainM on August 30th, 2023, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Shawn Henry »

larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:12 pm Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did.
Actions speak far louder than words. If I killed natives for sport, I'd probably also being willing to write lies in a journal.

Does it concern you that he never set foot in the promised land?

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by larsenb »

CaptainM wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:34 pm
larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:12 pm
CaptainM wrote: August 30th, 2023, 9:27 am A fascinating possibility. No way it was Columbus...
No way it was John Elliot.

The passage in 1st Nephi strongly implies that "the man among the gentiles" was the first gentile to make connection with his seed, followed by many more.

Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did. And attributing atrocities cited in the OP to Columbus doesn't cut it. The story of Columbus is quite complex and nuanced. He wasn't perfect, and did do some not very good things. But early on there were factions opposing him who were not as adverse in forcing the 'Indian's to do their bidding, to include forced conversion, and who were dedicated to accumulating wealth at the expense of the indigenous population.

Isabela, herself, was very opposed to forced conversion, or mistreating the natives. Perhaps the premier prelate among the early Spanish occupants, who defended the natives and abhorred the atrocities committed against them was Bartolome de Las Casas, who spent decades and in many writings and efforts to have them treated humanely.

You can delve into the complexities of the 'discovery of America' by Columbus, in the book: Conquistadores - A New History of Spanish Discovery and Conquest, by Fernando Cervantes, 2021. A most excellent book. I highly recommend it.
I’m sorry but you feel there’s something implied? Please make your case.

Did you watch the video?

Have you made an unbiased search of how evil Columbus was to rob and rape the indigenous American population. How could someone so evil and corrupt have the Holy Ghost?

Not sure why tcojcolds clings to Columbus. I guess same minds congregate.
Nowhere in the Book of Mormon, except in 1 Nephi 13:12 and related passages, does it talk about gentiles making contact w/the seed of Nephi's brethren. So the implication is that the man among the gentiles is the first to do so with any real impact; and this man will be inspired by the Spirit of God. Columbus claims a few times in his writings that he was heavily influenced by the Spirit of God to do what he did. Well documented. He is the guy that opened up the New World to later Gentiles being moved by the Spirit to move to a freer land.

You start off with the premise that Columbus was evil and corrupt. Could it be that wasn't nearly as bad as you and others think he was? After reading a few books on the subject, including the one I mentioned, it is clear to me that he wasn't. An extremely sincere individual, driven to do what he did . .. . . and also a man of his time.

As Fernando Cervantes documents quite well, the circumstances surrounding Columbus's 4 voyages and their results are quite nuanced and complicated. Almost off the bat, he was attacked and circumvented as an administer of the new lands, where the main factions were those who were more inclined to exploit the natives and come down hard on them.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by larsenb »

Shawn Henry wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:42 pm
larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:12 pm Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did.
Actions speak far louder than words. If I killed natives for sport, I'd probably also being willing to write lies in a journal.

Does it concern you that he never set foot in the promised land?
You need to document that Columbus killed natives for sport. And then let's see what the contrary evidence may be.

And of course he set foot in the promised land. You're trapped by your adherence to the Heartland model from believing that. Of course, that's fine with me. Just a difference of opinion.

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Shawn Henry
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Posts: 4507

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by Shawn Henry »

larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 2:19 pm [And of course he set foot in the promised land. You're trapped by your adherence to the Heartland model from believing that. Of course, that's fine with me. Just a difference of opinion.
No central or south American country has ever shown any signs of being promised and you know it. There is only one nation that has risen to power like the BoM describes and Columbus never set foot here.

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CaptainM
captain of 100
Posts: 639
Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by CaptainM »

larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 2:16 pm
CaptainM wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:34 pm
larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 1:12 pm

No way it was John Elliot.

The passage in 1st Nephi strongly implies that "the man among the gentiles" was the first gentile to make connection with his seed, followed by many more.

Columbus cites several times in his writings that he was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did. And attributing atrocities cited in the OP to Columbus doesn't cut it. The story of Columbus is quite complex and nuanced. He wasn't perfect, and did do some not very good things. But early on there were factions opposing him who were not as adverse in forcing the 'Indian's to do their bidding, to include forced conversion, and who were dedicated to accumulating wealth at the expense of the indigenous population.

Isabela, herself, was very opposed to forced conversion, or mistreating the natives. Perhaps the premier prelate among the early Spanish occupants, who defended the natives and abhorred the atrocities committed against them was Bartolome de Las Casas, who spent decades and in many writings and efforts to have them treated humanely.

You can delve into the complexities of the 'discovery of America' by Columbus, in the book: Conquistadores - A New History of Spanish Discovery and Conquest, by Fernando Cervantes, 2021. A most excellent book. I highly recommend it.
I’m sorry but you feel there’s something implied? Please make your case.

Did you watch the video?

Have you made an unbiased search of how evil Columbus was to rob and rape the indigenous American population. How could someone so evil and corrupt have the Holy Ghost?

Not sure why tcojcolds clings to Columbus. I guess same minds congregate.
Nowhere in the Book of Mormon, except in 1 Nephi 13:12 and related passages, does it talk about gentiles making contact w/the seed of Nephi's brethren. So the implication is that the man among the gentiles is the first to do so with any real impact; and this man will be inspired by the Spirit of God. Columbus claims a few times in his writings that he was heavily influenced by the Spirit of God to do what he did. Well documented. He is the guy that opened up the New World to later Gentiles being moved by the Spirit to move to a freer land.

You start off with the premise that Columbus was evil and corrupt. Could it be that wasn't nearly as bad as you and others think he was? After reading a few books on the subject, including the one I mentioned, it is clear to me that he wasn't. An extremely sincere individual, driven to do what he did . .. . . and also a man of his time.

As Fernando Cervantes documents quite well, the circumstances surrounding Columbus's 4 voyages and their results are quite nuanced and complicated. Almost off the bat, he was attacked and circumvented as an administer of the new lands, where the main factions were those who were more inclined to exploit the natives and come down hard on them.
Thank you for weighing in.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Man Among the Gentiles

Post by larsenb »

Shawn Henry wrote: August 30th, 2023, 2:30 pm
larsenb wrote: August 30th, 2023, 2:19 pm [And of course he set foot in the promised land. You're trapped by your adherence to the Heartland model from believing that. Of course, that's fine with me. Just a difference of opinion.
No central or south American country has ever shown any signs of being promised and you know it. There is only one nation that has risen to power like the BoM describes and Columbus never set foot here.
Nope. Not so. But you're welcome to your opinion. The US rising to great power doesn't negate this hemisphere from being the promised land.

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