Faith

[Atrasado]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

[BeNotDeceived]

Faith includes a hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11:1; Alma 32:21; Ether 12:6).

The church promotes belief in things that are not true, but claims to promote faith.

[nightlight]

Faith includes a hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11:1; Alma 32:21; Ether 12:6).

The church promotes belief in things that are not true, but claims to promote faith.

Lol

[John Tavner]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

They are just deceived, they struggle with belief in a God that religion has created and I don't blame them - we as Christians have blasphemed the Lord's name for too long. It is why God will cleanse His church and they will know at some point and have the choice to choose God or not, because they see Him. In the meantime we all need to let God cleanse us individually so that when people see us, they see Christ - not in the outward, but in very word and deed, in spirit and truth, and it us pure our love for our fellow men.

I would agree that there are things that unite us more than divide us, we ought to focus on those a bit more- Satan's purpose is to create division, within the churches, not unity - God desires us to be one in Christ.

[mudflap]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

I caught half the SS lesson on Sunday - he was talking about the difference between the foolish and the wise. My wife asked, 'what about the fools that never learn - that can't learn?' and a response was that God loves us so much, he wants all of us to have a place. Another person said that we are all somewhat foolish. While I agree, I don't think folks have really thought this through all the way - so I quoted 2N9:42-43

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever--yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.

The focus or attitude that will "open the gates of heaven" to anyone is the attitude that "I know nothing" of the ways of God - humility and a willingness to learn (knocking). Thanks for always bringing the focus back to the things that really matter.

[Thinker]

… I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real…

Awesome!
I think part of the narrow way is not going along with either cultish or atheist herd mentality. Bumpy path but if it is more based on truth, then it’s more sure.

[Thinker]

… 'what about the fools that never learn - that can't learn?' and a response was that God loves us so much, he wants all of us to have a place. Another person said that we are all somewhat foolish. While I agree, I don't think folks have really thought this through all the way - so I quoted 2N9:42-43

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever--yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.”...

Wisdom!
Being teachable & humbly coming to God for help is the only way we can learn & grow. When we keep acting foolish, we keep suffering the consequences.

After disagreements regarding covid shots, church etc, a friend sent me a scripture I previously loved,

• “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5

Considering the context & how she’d gaslighted me before, I was bothered by it. And replied with

• “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God…”

It struck me how we define God is so incredibly impactful!! Is God the church leaders? Is God the church? Policies? Doctrine?

What if some of the policies, doctrine or leaders are ungodly but put up as if completely infallible? How many worship false gods! How many of us need to follow Jacob’s example in wrestling with false ideas of God!

Is faith in false gods better than “trying the spirits” to see if they’re of God or not?
It seems like a constant challenge to simultaneously have faith, while wrestling with what we have faith in, to ensure it isn’t misguided.

[FrankOne]

… 'what about the fools that never learn - that can't learn?' and a response was that God loves us so much, he wants all of us to have a place. Another person said that we are all somewhat foolish. While I agree, I don't think folks have really thought this through all the way - so I quoted 2N9:42-43

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever--yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.”...

Wisdom!

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5

^

Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

[BuriedTartaria]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon.

There's your problem. Reddit is overwhelmingly a leftist place for discussion that upholds secularism. So you're largely getting views on the Book of Mormon, the LDS church and whatever disconnect exists between the two from an atheistic/anti-God/progressive-liberal perspective at r/Mormon. This is one reason the LDS church has historically had great success keeping Book of Mormon believers happy with them. The two dominating perspectives questioning the LDS church and Book of Mormon were from Christians (and believing Book of Mormon believers weren't likely to listen to their complaints because that crowd hates everything about Mormonism) and atheists/leftists (and believing Book of Mormon believers weren't likely to listen to their complaints because they are opposed to their secular views and morals). Now a newer option (maybe not new, but certainly refreshed in modern times) is a faithful Book of Mormon perspective on questioning the LDS church's institutional/leadership claims.

[Atrasado]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon.

There's your problem. Reddit is overwhelmingly a leftist place for discussion that upholds secularism. So you're largely getting views on the Book of Mormon, the LDS church and whatever disconnect exists between the two from an atheistic/anti-God/progressive-liberal perspective at r/Mormon. This is one reason the LDS church has historically had great success keeping Book of Mormon believers happy with them. The two dominating perspectives questioning the LDS church and Book of Mormon were from Christians (and believing Book of Mormon believers weren't likely to listen to their complaints because that crowd hates everything about Mormonism) and atheists/leftists (and believing Book of Mormon believers weren't likely to listen to their complaints because they are opposed to their secular views and morals). Now a newer option (maybe not new, but certainly refreshed in modern times) is a faithful Book of Mormon perspective on questioning the LDS church's institutional/leadership claims.

True. r/mormon is the sub for people who are beginning to question the Church or have left the Church but don't like all the cussin' and constant negativity in r/exmormon. r/lds is for believers who drink caffeine and r/latterdaysaints is for people who don't question the Church or its leaders at all. You can get banned for life from those last two subs faster than my dog chasing the neighbor cat if you say anything remotely questioning or critical and I have been.

I guess that my point is that many of the people in r/mormon still attend Church but many of them make it painfully clear that they don't really believe in God, commandments, sins, and the devil. They talk about catching up to modern thought as if man is the measure of all things.

And even though we all often disagree about some ideas, we do believe in God and are generally very aware that there are commandments, sins, and such. I think that's a pretty important thing and I'm really grateful for it.

[Mamabear]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

[FoundMyEden]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

Faith to not be healed? How does that even work, Bednar?

[Fred]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

It doesn't take any faith at all to not be healed. When was the last time you heard of a Q15 or even 70 perform a healing?

Many members have had the faith to heal or be healed. Maybe the GAs just don't talk about it and don't want people to know about the healing power of Jesus Christ. Christ's personal Apostles spent their remaining lives telling people about the good news. Today's Apostles, not so much.

Who is stupid enough to not at least ask? A child might ask a parent "I have a thorn and I can't get it out. Will you help me?" And what parent would respond "No, you scumbag, die!"

God can, and might, just for the asking, even if you don't deserve it. And if not, well then, He has something else in mind. Sometimes a kid might ask a parent multiple times.

We should have good enough communication that if the answer is no, we will know why.

Bednar probably does not know that God can do anything. Even stop covid without a mask or shot. Most of us here know that. Most of us know that neither a mask or shot can stop covid. One has to wonder how or why such a faithless moron became an Apostle?

[Mamabear]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

Faith to not be healed? How does that even work, Bednar?

I just read this from Bednar:

“The sacred and personal testimony I now declare to you stands independent of any other person and transcends the five physical senses. I witness that God, the Eternal Father, is our Father, and He is the author of the plan of happiness.
And I witness that the restoration is ongoing. The heavens are not closed, and the Savior continues to reveal His mind and will to His servants the prophets. The covenants and ordinances of the gospel yoke us to and with the resurrected and living Lord.”

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... reasonable

His wording is weird about the 5 senses. Just be straight forward bro.
The restoration isn’t ongoing, however prophecy and revelation are…..Prophets should be prophesying but aren’t.
The Savior continues to reveal things to regular people not just the prophets.
The covenants and ordinances do not yoke us to the Lord. What does? Coming to Christ, being reborn (saved) and following Him.

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:“ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

[FoundMyEden]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

Faith to not be healed? How does that even work, Bednar?

I just read this from Bednar:

“The sacred and personal testimony I now declare to you stands independent of any other person and transcends the five physical senses. I witness that God, the Eternal Father, is our Father, and He is the author of the plan of happiness.
And I witness that the restoration is ongoing. The heavens are not closed, and the Savior continues to reveal His mind and will to His servants the prophets. The covenants and ordinances of the gospel yoke us to and with the resurrected and living Lord.”

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... reasonable

His wording is weird about the 5 senses. Just be straight forward bro.
The restoration isn’t ongoing, however prophecy and revelation are…..Prophets should be prophesying but aren’t.
The Savior continues to reveal things to regular people not just the prophets.
The covenants and ordinances do not yoke us to the Lord. What does? Coming to Christ, being reborn (saved) and following Him.

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:“ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

He sounds like he’s trying to blend in some new age philosophies of man. Very strange indeed. The FP also speak as though the “ongoing restoration” is prophesy and revelation…although that isn’t happening either, so how would that be ongoing.

I think they’re really grasping at straws right now.

[Thinker]

Wisdom!
Being teachable & humbly coming to God for help is the only way we can learn & grow. When we keep acting foolish, we keep suffering the consequences.

After disagreements regarding covid shots, church etc, a friend sent me a scripture I previously loved,
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5
Considering the context & how she’d gaslighted me before, I was bothered by it. And replied with
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God…”
It struck me how we define God is so incredibly impactful!! Is God the church leaders? Is God the church? Policies? Doctrine?

What if some of the policies, doctrine or leaders are ungodly but put up as if completely infallible? How many worship false gods! How many of us need to follow Jacob’s example in wrestling with false ideas of God!

Is faith in false gods better than “trying the spirits” to see if they’re of God or not?
It seems like a constant challenge to simultaneously have faith, while wrestling with what we have faith in, to ensure it isn’t misguided.

^
Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

It’s one of those moments of “thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.”

Trust God above men - yet most of what we think of God is:
1) from men &
2) from within our own subjective perspectives.

This may be why we need to follow Jacob in “wrestling God”/wrestling old mistaken ideas of God.

Christ said:
“The kingdom (realm/experience/understanding) of God is within YOU.” - Luke 17:21
Yet, what is also within is potential for good as well as evil. So, I think it’s a question of discerning & choosing the good over the evil as much as possible.

[Thinker]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God…

In relation to what you mentioned above, I just thought about a quote by Jung, "Beware of unearned wisdom.” It was discussed in terms of psychedelic drugs but I think it also applies to assumed wisdom as with GA. Many of them have never done the spiritual, psychological & spiritual inner work to earn wisdom. This may be partly why often their talks come off as out of touch with “commoners.” True, I don’t KNOW their inner workings, but by their fruit (hypocrisy/psychological projection, following & leading toward evil) it’s apparent.

Then again, there are adult members who still look to substitute parental authorities & see every word GA’s utter as wise. What’s kinda funny is I know one case (& my guess it applies to many more) in which a GA has someone else write most of his talks & cusses at his ghost writer when it’s not up to par.

Anyway, there is plenty of good - but it’s mixed in with BS. A disclaimer would be helpful before each general conference: “blind leading the blind…”

[FrankOne]

Wisdom!
Being teachable & humbly coming to God for help is the only way we can learn & grow. When we keep acting foolish, we keep suffering the consequences.

After disagreements regarding covid shots, church etc, a friend sent me a scripture I previously loved,
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5
Considering the context & how she’d gaslighted me before, I was bothered by it. And replied with
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God…”
It struck me how we define God is so incredibly impactful!! Is God the church leaders? Is God the church? Policies? Doctrine?

What if some of the policies, doctrine or leaders are ungodly but put up as if completely infallible? How many worship false gods! How many of us need to follow Jacob’s example in wrestling with false ideas of God!

Is faith in false gods better than “trying the spirits” to see if they’re of God or not?
It seems like a constant challenge to simultaneously have faith, while wrestling with what we have faith in, to ensure it isn’t misguided.

^
Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

It’s one of those moments of “thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.”

Trust God above men - yet most of what we think of God is:
1) from men &
2) from within our own subjective perspectives.

This may be why we need to follow Jacob in “wrestling God”/wrestling old mistaken ideas of God.

Christ said:
“The kingdom (realm/experience/understanding) of God is within YOU.” - Luke 17:21
Yet, what is also within is potential for good as well as evil. So, I think it’s a question of discerning & choosing the good over the evil as much as possible.

Most people trust men and words. but "We" is overly inclusive. See bolded, underlined above. The teachings of the spirit is all there is. The rest are words of men with even the original apostles words being their interpretation of "truth" yet those words are quoted as if God himself spoke them. Men being men.

The plan of salvation isn't relative to being taught by men or being authorized by men. Yes, the baby steps are given by men to those that do not trust prayer or have not yet developed enough inner discipline to understand what prayer is.

Here is the plan of salvation that is never taught. The plan and the tools are within us because they are God:

Moses 6

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

[Thinker]

Wisdom!
Being teachable & humbly coming to God for help is the only way we can learn & grow. When we keep acting foolish, we keep suffering the consequences.

After disagreements regarding covid shots, church etc, a friend sent me a scripture I previously loved,
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5
Considering the context & how she’d gaslighted me before, I was bothered by it. And replied with
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God…”
It struck me how we define God is so incredibly impactful!! Is God the church leaders? Is God the church? Policies? Doctrine?

What if some of the policies, doctrine or leaders are ungodly but put up as if completely infallible? How many worship false gods! How many of us need to follow Jacob’s example in wrestling with false ideas of God!

Is faith in false gods better than “trying the spirits” to see if they’re of God or not?
It seems like a constant challenge to simultaneously have faith, while wrestling with what we have faith in, to ensure it isn’t misguided.

^
Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

It’s one of those moments of “thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.”

Trust God above men - yet most of what we think of God is:
1) from men &
2) from within our own subjective perspectives.

This may be why we need to follow Jacob in “wrestling God”/wrestling old mistaken ideas of God.

Christ said:
“The kingdom (realm/experience/understanding) of God is within YOU.” - Luke 17:21
Yet, what is also within is potential for good as well as evil. So, I think it’s a question of discerning & choosing the good over the evil as much as possible.

Most people trust men and words. but "We" is overly inclusive. See bolded, underlined above. The teachings of the spirit is all there is. The rest are words of men with even the original apostles words being their interpretation of "truth" yet those words are quoted as if God himself spoke them. Men being men.

The plan of salvation isn't relative to being taught by men or being authorized by men. Yes, the baby steps are given by men to those that do not trust prayer or have not yet developed enough inner discipline to understand what prayer is.

Here is the plan of salvation that is never taught. The plan and the tools are within us because they are God:

Moses 6

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

I don’t know a single person never spiritually influenced by others. And I don’t know anyone who thinks 100% objectively. Scriptures - including those above - are writings of men. Many assume they are true, or another religious doctrine is true - but maybe (probably) it’s not 100% true - especially considering how often religion has been used to manipulate, steal & kill.

My point is to question even our ideas of God. Don’t give up faith - but don’t keep running with a faith that is misguided (Eg: faith in leaders who supposedly act for GOD & “will never lead us astray” etc). Also, there needs to be more practice with inner discernment to distinguish between one’s emotions (fears/desires etc) & the Spirit.

In no way am I suggesting I have mastered this. I’m just beginning - and have so much to learn!

[Mamabear]

Wisdom!
Being teachable & humbly coming to God for help is the only way we can learn & grow. When we keep acting foolish, we keep suffering the consequences.

After disagreements regarding covid shots, church etc, a friend sent me a scripture I previously loved,
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” -Proverbs 3:5
Considering the context & how she’d gaslighted me before, I was bothered by it. And replied with
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God…”
It struck me how we define God is so incredibly impactful!! Is God the church leaders? Is God the church? Policies? Doctrine?

What if some of the policies, doctrine or leaders are ungodly but put up as if completely infallible? How many worship false gods! How many of us need to follow Jacob’s example in wrestling with false ideas of God!

Is faith in false gods better than “trying the spirits” to see if they’re of God or not?
It seems like a constant challenge to simultaneously have faith, while wrestling with what we have faith in, to ensure it isn’t misguided.

^
Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

It’s one of those moments of “thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.”

Trust God above men - yet most of what we think of God is:
1) from men &
2) from within our own subjective perspectives.

This may be why we need to follow Jacob in “wrestling God”/wrestling old mistaken ideas of God.

Christ said:
“The kingdom (realm/experience/understanding) of God is within YOU.” - Luke 17:21
Yet, what is also within is potential for good as well as evil. So, I think it’s a question of discerning & choosing the good over the evil as much as possible.

Most people trust men and words. but "We" is overly inclusive. See bolded, underlined above. The teachings of the spirit is all there is. The rest are words of men with even the original apostles words being their interpretation of "truth" yet those words are quoted as if God himself spoke them. Men being men.

The plan of salvation isn't relative to being taught by men or being authorized by men. Yes, the baby steps are given by men to those that do not trust prayer or have not yet developed enough inner discipline to understand what prayer is.

Here is the plan of salvation that is never taught. The plan and the tools are within us because they are God:

Moses 6

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Yes. People think the prophets have all the power, revelation, authority, etc. In reality these can exist in us but we reject it because we’re are blinded by the craftiness of men. It’s all in the scriptures and we wrest them at our own peril.

[Being There]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

They are just deceived, they struggle with belief in a God that religion has created and I don't blame them - we as Christians have blasphemed the Lord's name for too long. It is why God will cleanse His church and they will know at some point and have the choice to choose God or not, because they see Him. In the meantime we all need to let God cleanse us individually so that when people see us, they see Christ - not in the outward, but in very word and deed, in spirit and truth, and it us pure our love for our fellow men.

I would agree that there are things that unite us more than divide us, we ought to focus on those a bit more- Satan's purpose is to create division, within the churches, not unity - God desires us to be one in Christ.

division !

Satan's purpose is to create division

so is God's.

The Lord has always separated and divided His people.
I think there is a reason for division.

“He who is not with Me is against Me.

[Being There]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

They are just deceived, they struggle with belief in a God that religion has created and I don't blame them - we as Christians have blasphemed the Lord's name for too long. It is why God will cleanse His church and they will know at some point and have the choice to choose God or not, because they see Him. In the meantime we all need to let God cleanse us individually so that when people see us, they see Christ - not in the outward, but in very word and deed, in spirit and truth, and it us pure our love for our fellow men.

I would agree that there are things that unite us more than divide us, we ought to focus on those a bit more- Satan's purpose is to create division, within the churches, not unity - God desires us to be one in Christ.

division !

Satan's purpose is to create division

so is God's.

The Lord has always separated and divided His people.
I think there is a reason for division.

“He who is not with Me is against Me.

and why would anyone want to unite with a church who has united with the church of the devil !.

what more needs to be said.
Should be obvious by now, (to those that are not the blind following the blind)
that the church is corrupt and has joined "that great and abominable church"

but as we can see, there are still members that want to believe "all is well in Zion",
and in a church that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy -
just as the scriptures said the Gentiles would - warning us not to unite with the church of the devil - but we have.

WHY WOULD THE LORD SAY THIS - IF IT WERE NOT POSSIBLE ?
"And blessed are the Gentiles" - "if it so be that they shall repent"
"and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church,"

2 Nephi 6

12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold,
if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion,
and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church,
they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfil his covenants which he has made unto his children;
and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

Have we repented as a church and people ? NO.
Do we see any need to ? - NO.
or to humble ourselves before the Lord, and ask for His forgiveness and seek His guidance
because we have gone astray. NO. *
(we have joined the World and do the bidding of the evil men that control it)
* Or have we become like those that tried to warn us;
those who gave us their book - hoping we wouldn't make the same mistakes as they did;
when they too - had the gospel - and became rich and full of pride -
then losing it - and suffering the consequences -
AS WE HAVE - AND AS WE WILL
suffering the same consequences - and destruction as they did,
as The Times of the Gentiles comes to an end.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."

Jesus said
"He that is not with me is against me"
and I'll guarantee ya, THE CHURCH IS NOT WITH HIM !

Ya, I guess Jesus would say - it's best to just partake of their evil fruit -the kill shot - -and join them. - as the church has done.
Anyone - that's not the blind following the blind - knows that that is exactly what the church has done -
with being "Good Global Citizens" - and asking all members to follow them - and who they follow -
World leaders - and their secret combinations. These evil people want their NWO ! ;
and our church is first in line !
And with their desire for money - Building Babylon Bigger and BIGGER -
with all their investments and ties with evil organizations.

Wake up to the facts !
Right here in this forum - in many places - those that are awake - have shown and proved this.
But members don't want to see - much less accept it.

When will members stop trying to justify everything your church leaders do -
and why they do it.

***
The church is "neutral" on everything - and stands up for nothing; because it's a part of Babylon,
and has joined " that great and abominable church" - *********
"Global Unity" - Babylon - the NWO.

and as I've said before.....
"Worldly philosophies have rooted themselves in the decisions made by church leaders
and are growing ever more compatible with the teachings of the church.
These decisions (not revelations) and changes the church has made over the years -
are the result of giving into the pressures of Babylon.
In these modern times, instead of still being the peculiar people that we once were before,
the church changes according to the whims of society.

“A ‘true’ church doesn’t change its doctrines at the whims of society and the pressures of ever-changing
and evolving morals and values.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and so should His church be,
and to change would be to cave in on what it stands for.”

The church is in total apostasy.

"if you had ever questioned if Nelson was a false prophet, and whether or not the church had gone astray,
I think that question has been answered for you.

""ONE GREAT GLOBAL FAMILY"
Pres. Nelson
(sounds more like what satan (the god of this world) would say)

we have not repented as a church and people,
and HAVE "unite themselves to that great and abominable church of the devil". *********

as I've posted before.
**********
"Rome Temple dedication - and meeting with the pope,
President Russell M. Nelson said
"This is a hinge point in the history of the church.

Things are going to move forward at an accelerated pace, of which this is a part,"
The Church is going to have an unprecedented future, unparalleled.
We’re just building up to what’s ahead now.”

Dictionary
hinge -
"attach or join with or as if with a hinge"

"His Holiness, he was most gracious and warm and welcoming," ,
"What a sweet, wonderful man he is, and how fortunate the Catholic people are to have such a gracious,
concerned, loving and capable leader."
(kinda makes you sick just hearing what he said doesn't it)


Yes, IT WILL "move forward at an accelerated pace"
To the fall of the Gentiles and the church,
and to The Times of the Gentiles being fulfilled.
With fulfilling the words of Isaiah; and words of warning in the Book of Mormon,
with "uniting themselves to that great and abominable church";
the church will have fulfilled it's full measure of iniquity and apostasy.

"And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked, and never until then; which I pray may never come."
Brigham Young, May 31, 1857, JD 4:327.

quote from someone
"If you are in a church organization which looks on world unity
and ecumenical efforts as desirable, YOU ARE IN the Whore Church,
and you will either get OUT of her, or you will be damned to hell and consumed by the wrath of a holy God. "


Pope Francis Calls for ‘New World Order’ After the Pandemic

Pope Francis insists in a new book things will never be the same in a post-pandemic world,
calling instead for the establishment of a “new world order.”
https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... -pandemic/

[Mamabear]

Modern “apostles” don’t understand faith and healing because they weren’t commissioned directly by God.
“I then posed questions I had not planned to ask and had never previously considered: “[John,] do you have the faith not to be healed? If it is the will of our Heavenly Father that you are transferred by death in your youth to the spirit world to continue your ministry, do you have the faith to submit to His will and not be healed?”
David Bednar

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”
Matthew 10:5-10

Faith to not be healed? How does that even work, Bednar?

“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.“ Matthew 10:1

Is this applicable today? Have the 12 been commissioned by Jesus Christ to heal ALL manner of sickness and disease?
Shouldn’t we expect the same from apostles of Jesus in our day?

[John Tavner]

I just spent twenty minutes reading items in r/Mormon. I felt like I was in Lehi's dream and was watching activities of the great and spacious building. The condescension and mocking of a real belief in God or the idea that He might really care about the commandments He gave us was constant.

I may not be happy with what is happening in the Church, and I've got a lot of my own problems and weaknesses, but I do know God is real and that He does have commandments and we ought to pay close attention to them and really try to keep them.

Those of us who post on this forum often disagree on a lot of things, but we do typically share a belief in God and a faith in our Lord and Savior. I think the things that unite us are more in some ways, than the things that divide us.

They are just deceived, they struggle with belief in a God that religion has created and I don't blame them - we as Christians have blasphemed the Lord's name for too long. It is why God will cleanse His church and they will know at some point and have the choice to choose God or not, because they see Him. In the meantime we all need to let God cleanse us individually so that when people see us, they see Christ - not in the outward, but in very word and deed, in spirit and truth, and it us pure our love for our fellow men.

I would agree that there are things that unite us more than divide us, we ought to focus on those a bit more- Satan's purpose is to create division, within the churches, not unity - God desires us to be one in Christ.

division !

Satan's purpose is to create division

so is God's.

The Lord has always separated and divided His people.
I think there is a reason for division.

“He who is not with Me is against Me.

You misunderstand. Division in Christ. There is no division in Christ.

Gal 5:19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 11:17In the following instructions I have no praise to offer, because your gatherings do more harm than good. 18First of all, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.

20Now then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat. 21For as you eat, each of you goes ahead without sharing his meal.b While one remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have your own homes in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What can I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? No, I will not!

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you;c do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against thed body and blood of the Lord. 28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

31Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

33So, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you come together it will not result in judgment. And when I come, I will give instructions about the remaining matters.

[FrankOne]

^
Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

I could make a list of scriptures on the subject of not trusting men as well as a long list of scriptures instructing to trust God, but I have yet to find a single scripture that says "Trust Men". It seems to be obvious that those that do not yet understand how to trust God, must therefore take solace in trusting men and thereby be able to blame those men when their counsel turns out to be wrong. It's a way of relieving oneself of personal responsibility.

It’s one of those moments of “thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.”

Trust God above men - yet most of what we think of God is:
1) from men &
2) from within our own subjective perspectives.

This may be why we need to follow Jacob in “wrestling God”/wrestling old mistaken ideas of God.

Christ said:
“The kingdom (realm/experience/understanding) of God is within YOU.” - Luke 17:21
Yet, what is also within is potential for good as well as evil. So, I think it’s a question of discerning & choosing the good over the evil as much as possible.

Most people trust men and words. but "We" is overly inclusive. See bolded, underlined above. The teachings of the spirit is all there is. The rest are words of men with even the original apostles words being their interpretation of "truth" yet those words are quoted as if God himself spoke them. Men being men.

The plan of salvation isn't relative to being taught by men or being authorized by men. Yes, the baby steps are given by men to those that do not trust prayer or have not yet developed enough inner discipline to understand what prayer is.

Here is the plan of salvation that is never taught. The plan and the tools are within us because they are God:

Moses 6

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

I don’t know a single person never spiritually influenced by others. And I don’t know anyone who thinks 100% objectively. Scriptures - including those above - are writings of men. Many assume they are true, or another religious doctrine is true - but maybe (probably) it’s not 100% true - especially considering how often religion has been used to manipulate, steal & kill.

My point is to question even our ideas of God. Don’t give up faith - but don’t keep running with a faith that is misguided (Eg: faith in leaders who supposedly act for GOD & “will never lead us astray” etc). Also, there needs to be more practice with inner discernment to distinguish between one’s emotions (fears/desires etc) & the Spirit.

In no way am I suggesting I have mastered this. I’m just beginning - and have so much to learn!

If you started off as a rebuttal to what I said: I didn't say that the spirit can't work between people. I didn't say that anyone could be 100% objective. I totally am in accord with you on questioning our idea of God.

The first question might be: Why all the OT scripture references which mention multiple Gods? Then we have many other ancient texts which mention the variety of Gods and their positions at different levels of existence. The title of "God" itself is very ambiguous. I am not suggesting in the least that mocking any God would be wise and in fact, my position is that it would be very unwise.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ seem to be the most resolute sources for guidance.