Faith

[Thinker]

I don’t know a single person never spiritually influenced by others. And I don’t know anyone who thinks 100% objectively. Scriptures - including those above - are writings of men. Many assume they are true, or another religious doctrine is true - but maybe (probably) it’s not 100% true - especially considering how often religion has been used to manipulate, steal & kill.

My point is to question even our ideas of God. Don’t give up faith - but don’t keep running with a faith that is misguided (Eg: faith in leaders who supposedly act for GOD & “will never lead us astray” etc). Also, there needs to be more practice with inner discernment to distinguish between one’s emotions (fears/desires etc) & the Spirit.

In no way am I suggesting I have mastered this. I’m just beginning - and have so much to learn!

If you started off as a rebuttal to what I said: I didn't say that the spirit can't work between people. I didn't say that anyone could be 100% objective. I totally am in accord with you on questioning our idea of God.

The first question might be: Why all the OT scripture references which mention multiple Gods? Then we have many other ancient texts which mention the variety of Gods and their positions at different levels of existence. The title of "God" itself is very ambiguous. I am not suggesting in the least that mocking any God would be wise and in fact, my position is that it would be very unwise.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ seem to be the most resolute sources for guidance.

Thanks for clarifying & sorry for the misunderstanding. I am on my own quest to figure things out & am a work in progress.

What do you mean by “OT scripture references which mention multiple Gods”? Maybe it has something to do with how much of the Bible has borrowed from Greek mythology…

*Pandora opening box releasing evil, like Eve taking fruit
*Zeus destroyed everything with a great flood - like later Noah story
*Similar wars and battles
*Hades (god of the underworld) in Acts 2:27 is incorrectly associated with hell
*Unicorns are mentioned in Numbers 23:22, Job 39:9-10 & Psalms 92:10
*Brother against brother stories
*Odysseus was a carpenter and acquainted with grief and sorrow, had to hide himself when he returned home.
*Similar emphasis on #s: 3 Fates, Cronus overthrown by 3 sons... Bible: 3 wise men, Holy Trinity. 12 gods of Olympus... 12 disciples of Christ.

I wish that scriptures were not gods to so many, & yet I have also put excessive trust in them. After studying history of how the Bible was canonized & other Christian origins, I cannot accept it all just like I don’t accept an entire political party belief package. There is good - but also bad - in scriptures. Imagine if we all sought truth wherever it’s found, rather than putting some literature (scripture) up on a pedestal as if it cannot be questioned. It might feel scary like floating out in space - nobody directing. Still: “Thou shalt have no other gods” - Rarely lived it seems. Then again, no need to reinvent the wheel - if it works well enough… but maybe it isn’t enough through spiritual storms continuing to use religion to deceive & manipulate.

[FrankOne]

I don’t know a single person never spiritually influenced by others. And I don’t know anyone who thinks 100% objectively. Scriptures - including those above - are writings of men. Many assume they are true, or another religious doctrine is true - but maybe (probably) it’s not 100% true - especially considering how often religion has been used to manipulate, steal & kill.

My point is to question even our ideas of God. Don’t give up faith - but don’t keep running with a faith that is misguided (Eg: faith in leaders who supposedly act for GOD & “will never lead us astray” etc). Also, there needs to be more practice with inner discernment to distinguish between one’s emotions (fears/desires etc) & the Spirit.

In no way am I suggesting I have mastered this. I’m just beginning - and have so much to learn!

If you started off as a rebuttal to what I said: I didn't say that the spirit can't work between people. I didn't say that anyone could be 100% objective. I totally am in accord with you on questioning our idea of God.

The first question might be: Why all the OT scripture references which mention multiple Gods? Then we have many other ancient texts which mention the variety of Gods and their positions at different levels of existence. The title of "God" itself is very ambiguous. I am not suggesting in the least that mocking any God would be wise and in fact, my position is that it would be very unwise.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ seem to be the most resolute sources for guidance.

Thanks for clarifying & sorry for the misunderstanding. I am on my own quest to figure things out & am a work in progress.

What do you mean by “OT scripture references which mention multiple Gods”? Maybe it has something to do with how much of the Bible has borrowed from Greek mythology…

*Pandora opening box releasing evil, like Eve taking fruit
*Zeus destroyed everything with a great flood - like later Noah story
*Similar wars and battles
*Hades (god of the underworld) in Acts 2:27 is incorrectly associated with hell
*Unicorns are mentioned in Numbers 23:22, Job 39:9-10 & Psalms 92:10
*Brother against brother stories
*Odysseus was a carpenter and acquainted with grief and sorrow, had to hide himself when he returned home.
*Similar emphasis on #s: 3 Fates, Cronus overthrown by 3 sons... Bible: 3 wise men, Holy Trinity. 12 gods of Olympus... 12 disciples of Christ.

I wish that scriptures were not gods to so many, & yet I have also put excessive trust in them. After studying history of how the Bible was canonized & other Christian origins, I cannot accept it all just like I don’t accept an entire political party belief package. There is good - but also bad - in scriptures. Imagine if we all sought truth wherever it’s found, rather than putting some literature (scripture) up on a pedestal as if it cannot be questioned. It might feel scary like floating out in space - nobody directing. Still: “Thou shalt have no other gods” - Rarely lived it seems. Then again, no need to reinvent the wheel - if it works well enough… but maybe it isn’t enough through spiritual storms continuing to use religion to deceive & manipulate.

You put my feet to the fire with your question. lol . Off the top of my head, I could only think of two different "Gods" in the OT , but I was also thinking of how many different Gods have been worshiped anciently . I speculate that many of those Gods exist, separately.

So.. I looked further into OT Gods and also gave it some thought.

The first two that I had considered were Jehovah and Sabaoth. Main stream Christians and some Jews try to say that they are the same being, but the multiple Gnostic texts specifically name Sabaoth as "the God of righteousness" and that he is a distinct God.

In my guesswork, I consider that Jove and Jehovah are one and the same. Zeus in latin is Deus. Deus is where we get the word "Diety" in English. Zeus-Deus-God. In the Catholic belief, Deus is God. Thor and Jove both are related to the planet Jupiter and both have the day of Thursday named after them. Thu(o)rsday and Jovis Dies (L) , (Jueves in Spanish)They are also likely the same being. A jump of guesswork is that Zeus, Jove, and Jehovah are all the same being. Each with a different 'history' as told by different peoples and culture. The emotional attributes of Zeus and Jehovah are the same. Angry, Jealous, and Vengeful.

I see the Lord of Sabaoth as someone very different. In the gnostic writing of the "Pistis Sophia" , there is the account of Christ doing , what I believe, was his greatest work . He entered each level of Gods and rendered them asunder for what they had been doing. Consider the stories of what Zeus did, and you will find more of the same in the Pistis Sophia ....and much worse. The Gods in those kingdoms could not comprehend the glory of Christ . He took each of them by complete surprise and astonishment. Christ reorganized the higher kingdoms and changed the fabric of time itself.

The Lord of Sabaoth was the only one that I could find that stood next to Christ during all of this above and it is implied that he still works today in the salvation of the children of God (Us). Christ saving us was a work on many levels.

An interesting note that I've mentioned here before is that Sabaoth is mentioned a few times in the D&C as the one speaking.

As specifically to the OT, another one comes to mind and that was in answer to Moses' question: What name shall I tell them that sent me? "I am that I am". Very interesting. He could have called himself Jehovah...but he didn't.

[Thinker]

You put my feet to the fire with your question. lol . Off the top of my head, I could only think of two different "Gods" in the OT , but I was also thinking of how many different Gods have been worshiped anciently . I speculate that many of those Gods exist, separately.

So.. I looked further into OT Gods and also gave it some thought.

The first two that I had considered were Jehovah and Sabaoth. Main stream Christians and some Jews try to say that they are the same being, but the multiple Gnostic texts specifically name Sabaoth as "the God of righteousness" and that he is a distinct God.

In my guesswork, I consider that Jove and Jehovah are one and the same. Zeus in latin is Deus. Deus is where we get the word "Diety" in English. Zeus-Deus-God. In the Catholic belief, Deus is God. Thor and Jove both are related to the planet Jupiter and both have the day of Thursday named after them. Thu(o)rsday and Jovis Dies (L) , (Jueves in Spanish)They are also likely the same being. A jump of guesswork is that Zeus, Jove, and Jehovah are all the same being. Each with a different 'history' as told by different peoples and culture. The emotional attributes of Zeus and Jehovah are the same. Angry, Jealous, and Vengeful.

I see the Lord of Sabaoth as someone very different. In the gnostic writing of the "Pistis Sophia" , there is the account of Christ doing , what I believe, was his greatest work . He entered each level of Gods and rendered them asunder for what they had been doing. Consider the stories of what Zeus did, and you will find more of the same in the Pistis Sophia ....and much worse. The Gods in those kingdoms could not comprehend the glory of Christ . He took each of them by complete surprise and astonishment. Christ reorganized the higher kingdoms and changed the fabric of time itself.

The Lord of Sabaoth was the only one that I could find that stood next to Christ during all of this above and it is implied that he still works today in the salvation of the children of God (Us). Christ saving us was a work on many levels.

An interesting note that I've mentioned here before is that Sabaoth is mentioned a few times in the D&C as the one speaking.

As specifically to the OT, another one comes to mind and that was in answer to Moses' question: What name shall I tell them that sent me? "I am that I am". Very interesting. He could have called himself Jehovah...but he didn't.

Fascinating, thanks for the insights. Often you have shared things I previously didn’t know. Good to learn.

“Lord of the Sabbath” is heard in church - but I hadn’t before considered that maybe that Lord was originally a distinct deity. I find it especially interesting because I believe that spirituality involves many spirits and gods. In fact, each person imagines god slightly different - uniquely - so in that sense, there are at least as many gods as there are people.

Of course, Monotheism is a good thing in that at least it sets up a direction - via a hierarchy of values. If all gods/spirits were deemed equally good - then there’s no sense of priorities - no sense of morality.

The gnostic writing of the "Pistis Sophia" you mentioned sounds interesting how Christ reorganized the levels of gods. You never hear such a thing in church - yet I sense there’s truth! I may look that up later.

Do you think “I AM that I AM” refers to Christ saying, “The kingdom of God is within you”? Maybe also the importance of existence to worshipping a God… “God of the living, not the dead”… & … “Except a man be born of water (all are born of water/amniotic fluid) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

[FrankOne]

You put my feet to the fire with your question. lol . Off the top of my head, I could only think of two different "Gods" in the OT , but I was also thinking of how many different Gods have been worshiped anciently . I speculate that many of those Gods exist, separately.

So.. I looked further into OT Gods and also gave it some thought.

The first two that I had considered were Jehovah and Sabaoth. Main stream Christians and some Jews try to say that they are the same being, but the multiple Gnostic texts specifically name Sabaoth as "the God of righteousness" and that he is a distinct God.

In my guesswork, I consider that Jove and Jehovah are one and the same. Zeus in latin is Deus. Deus is where we get the word "Diety" in English. Zeus-Deus-God. In the Catholic belief, Deus is God. Thor and Jove both are related to the planet Jupiter and both have the day of Thursday named after them. Thu(o)rsday and Jovis Dies (L) , (Jueves in Spanish)They are also likely the same being. A jump of guesswork is that Zeus, Jove, and Jehovah are all the same being. Each with a different 'history' as told by different peoples and culture. The emotional attributes of Zeus and Jehovah are the same. Angry, Jealous, and Vengeful.

I see the Lord of Sabaoth as someone very different. In the gnostic writing of the "Pistis Sophia" , there is the account of Christ doing , what I believe, was his greatest work . He entered each level of Gods and rendered them asunder for what they had been doing. Consider the stories of what Zeus did, and you will find more of the same in the Pistis Sophia ....and much worse. The Gods in those kingdoms could not comprehend the glory of Christ . He took each of them by complete surprise and astonishment. Christ reorganized the higher kingdoms and changed the fabric of time itself.

The Lord of Sabaoth was the only one that I could find that stood next to Christ during all of this above and it is implied that he still works today in the salvation of the children of God (Us). Christ saving us was a work on many levels.

An interesting note that I've mentioned here before is that Sabaoth is mentioned a few times in the D&C as the one speaking.

As specifically to the OT, another one comes to mind and that was in answer to Moses' question: What name shall I tell them that sent me? "I am that I am". Very interesting. He could have called himself Jehovah...but he didn't.

Do you think “I AM that I AM” refers to Christ saying, “The kingdom of God is within you”? Maybe also the importance of existence to worshipping a God… “God of the living, not the dead”… & … “Except a man be born of water (all are born of water/amniotic fluid) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

My perspective is that we are now beings that "do" . We are actors. "Am" is to just "Be". Christ said that the Father does the works. I perceive that in this fallen state, we are falsely assuming the role of being the "Doer" by exercising our will instead of Gods and that free will was given us for a time until we learn to "do the will of the Father" instead of our will. The Kingdom of God within us is where we eventually go to and find "Being" in a oneness with the Father as Christ did. I'm not sure how baptism relates to this, but it's certainly a step toward this direction.

The last willful act on our part is to let go of will.

[Thinker]

My perspective is that we are now beings that "do" . We are actors. "Am" is to just "Be". Christ said that the Father does the works. I perceive that in this fallen state, we are falsely assuming the role of being the "Doer" by exercising our will instead of Gods and that free will was given us for a time until we learn to "do the will of the Father" instead of our will. The Kingdom of God within us is where we eventually go to and find "Being" in a oneness with the Father as Christ did. I'm not sure how baptism relates to this, but it's certainly a step toward this direction.

The last willful act on our part is to let go of will.

Interesting.
It seems that there are conflicting or paradoxical aspects of God and faith…

“Faith without works is dead…”
Yet:
“Be still and know that I AM God.”

[darknesstolight]

My perspective is that we are now beings that "do" . We are actors. "Am" is to just "Be". Christ said that the Father does the works. I perceive that in this fallen state, we are falsely assuming the role of being the "Doer" by exercising our will instead of Gods and that free will was given us for a time until we learn to "do the will of the Father" instead of our will. The Kingdom of God within us is where we eventually go to and find "Being" in a oneness with the Father as Christ did. I'm not sure how baptism relates to this, but it's certainly a step toward this direction.

The last willful act on our part is to let go of will.

Interesting.
It seems that there are conflicting or paradoxical aspects of God and faith…

“Faith without works is dead…”
Yet:
“Be still and know that I AM God.”

People speak about loving Christ but they don't use that knowledge in their own life to live and to be and to say and to act as Jesus Christ would.

When most people get to certain level of pain and suffering they look for ways to get away. Think broad here. They will do, say, be, and act like anything or anyone to end the pain and suffering. They are unwilling to really and truly suffer for Christ and at the first true sign of pain they make excuses for why living a Christ like life is not required for them at the moment. Compromise and rationalization.

It takes faith to do the work of Christ and if you are not doing the works of Christ you don't have faith. Having faith in Christ and doing the works of Christ means you are at peace and still and know that I AM God.

...

[Thinker]

Interesting.
It seems that there are conflicting or paradoxical aspects of God and faith…

“Faith without works is dead…”
Yet:
“Be still and know that I AM God.”

People speak about loving Christ but they don't use that knowledge in their own life to live and to be and to say and to act as Jesus Christ would.

When most people get to certain level of pain and suffering they look for ways to get away. Think broad here. They will do, say, be, and act like anything or anyone to end the pain and suffering. They are unwilling to really and truly suffer for Christ and at the first true sign of pain they make excuses for why living a Christ like life is not required for them at the moment. Compromise and rationalization.

It takes faith to do the work of Christ and if you are not doing the works of Christ you don't have faith. Having faith in Christ and doing the works of Christ means you are at peace and still and know that I AM God.
...

A lot of truth.
Several good, life-long friends mean a lot to me but also piss me off because they refuse to carry their cross which causes others to be burdened with extra. They take antidepressants so their judgement is impaired, they’re numb (lacking empathy) & other bad side effects. So many seem to have caved in some way to evil - often under the guise of “doing things legally or by church rules” etc.

I think the biggest initial obstacle is misunderstanding what Christ is about, because leaders spread their own misunderstood warped traditions.

Some may think, “Oh well, maybe I don’t understand the atonement - who does? I’m content to just go along - everyone else is doing it, so it must be fine.” But there is evidence to suggest it is not fine - not just in the eternal perspective & not just for good mental health… but also because such missing the mark can contribute or cause social & physical problems (placebo/nocebo effects). Atone - to make at one. Nobody can exercise for you & nobody can do the inner processing & ask God to make weak things strong - for you.

RE: the paradox…



It is good to learn from the past & plan ahead for the future, but there is also peace & contentment to appreciate each temporary moment.