The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
The tree of knowledge of good and evil was put o. The midst of the garden, midst means middle. If God didn't want them to partake why put the tree there at all? When you do put it in you put it in the middle, they see it everyday, they walk past it they probably live by it. It is in their face everyday. God wanted them to partake.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
If God didn't want them to eat why put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden at all. Instead he puts the tree in the midst or middle of the garden. They see it everyday, they probably live by it. They get up..hey look there is the tree we aren't supposed to eat of, before they go to sleep the last thing they see is the tree they aren't supposed to eat of. God totally wanted them to partake.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 12:23 amLet's look at what the scriptures actually say about this.
This is what God said in this allegorical story of the fall.
16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Notice how God actually gives Adam permission to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil if he chooses, but warns him that he will die if he does.
Now let's look at the account of what led to Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit:
6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.
Notice how Satan didn't know the mind of God. He didn't realize that he was playing right into God's plan all along.
7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.)
8 And the woman said unto the serpent: We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden;
9 But of the fruit of the tree which thou beholdest in the midst of the garden, God hath said—Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
10 And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die;
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
The lie was that Adam and Eve wouldn't die if they ate the fruit. That's it.
The part about them becoming more like God by having their eyes opened to knowing good and evil by partaking of the fruit was true. Eve recognized that it was in fact desirable to have knowledge of good and evil, which is why she partook of it.
There's also a hint in verse 12 of what the true nature of this fruit was, when it says that Eve "saw that the tree was good for food."
What does this phrase mean?
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
I think all of God's children, if they want to become more like God, need to experience the fall and go through a state of mortality. Only in this way do they truly gain a deep and full understanding of good and evil and they also can learn to achieve a character of strength is overcoming adversity and prizing the good over the evil. Mankind must learn to overcome of his own free will and choice to become more like God.Durzan wrote: ↑September 7th, 2022, 10:12 pmActually this raises an interesting line of thought. How far does a single Fall extend. Only to one world? To multiple? To all Terrestrial worlds? Regardless, assuming that each and every one of the worlds that the Father created for his children to live and experiment in had the opportunity to fall to a telestial state, and that Father keeps creating these worlds... it becomes statistically inevitable that at least one world will enter a fallen state if given enough time. Thus, a Savior would be necessary.onefour1 wrote: ↑September 7th, 2022, 9:55 pmSatan has been known to be a rather arrogant type, for example he would not give up on his failed idea to force all to be good even though it was flawed. So, even if he knew others tempted the people on other worlds and were cursed for it, he may still have stuck to his guns thinking that he is right.Obeone wrote: ↑September 7th, 2022, 8:18 pmWhether or not Satan was personally on other world's is irrelevant to my conclusions.onefour1 wrote: ↑September 7th, 2022, 2:07 pm You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.
Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.
Even if some other demons tempted the other Adams, the logic still applies:
If Lucifer knew that those devils were cursed every time they offered forbidden fruit to an Adam (millions of times), why should he be surprised when the same happened to him?
The answer is it didn't.
Those devils were not cursed for a fall because their temptations did not produce a fall, (because other Adams rejected their temptations and were blessed to live in a Millennial state right off the bat), but here on this earth, it did produce a fall, because our Adam chose wrong.
This is why the Savior was born on this world, and not on another. This one fell.
According to the following link, there is evidence that Joseph Smith believed that Jesus Christ was the Savior of all the worlds that he created.
See “Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?”
If those on other worlds did not fall, then a Savior would not be necessary. But, as Joseph Smith seemed to believe, Jesus Christ was the Savior of all his creations.
So, I believe all of God's worlds that he sends his children to to gain bodies of flesh and bone are earmarked to become mortal worlds. I believe it is part of the overall necessary progression of all mankind. I think based on Satan's statement, "that which has been done in other worlds", leads me to believe that a separate fall would need to occur on each world. Just my opinion.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
I don't know what Joseph's position was on "there is no other way" lie. But what I said was IF Joseph believed the lie, then he was obviously deceived just like Adam was.
I am sure if that was the case it was an honest mistake on his part, and God forgives honest mistakes, after his children correct themselves.
But those who persist in their errors even after they were pointed out to them will be damned.
This is how God works.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
This is no different thanAtticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 12:23 am 16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The same principle.2 Nephi. 2:27
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
It doesn't mean that God is encouraging men to sin or to transgress his commandments, the punishment for which is death spiritual and physical.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
I think you are reading it wrong.Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 9:18 am The tree of knowledge of good and evil was put o. The midst of the garden, midst means middle. If God didn't want them to partake why put the tree there at all? When you do put it in you put it in the middle, they see it everyday, they walk past it they probably live by it. It is in their face everyday. God wanted them to partake.
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden.Gen. 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The tree of death was there, so they could be tempted and could refuse to it of it. This would have opened their eyes without any transgression, and they would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as God commanded them. (For it is the exposure to temptation/opposition that opens eyes to know good and evil, and not fruits and trees).
But they chose wrong, for which they were cursed, and died.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
As I said, their eyes would have been opened whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to eat of it. This is why the tree was there.Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 9:23 am If God didn't want them to eat why put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden at all. Instead he puts the tree in the midst or middle of the garden. They see it everyday, they probably live by it. They get up..hey look there is the tree we aren't supposed to eat of, before they go to sleep the last thing they see is the tree they aren't supposed to eat of. God totally wanted them to partake.
But if they resisted the temptation as God commanded them, their eyes would have been opened without any transgression or fall, as millions of worlds have done before.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Free agency is free agency. However, in this case God literally said that he was giving the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam and giving him the choice whether to eat of it or not. If he ate, he would die (become mortal and loose his innocence). There was no sin in what Adam did. He simply transgressed an eternal law of nature.Obeone wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 10:14 pmThis is no different thanAtticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 12:23 am 16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The same principle.2 Nephi. 2:27
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
It doesn't mean that God is encouraging men to sin or to transgress his commandments, the punishment for which is death spiritual and physical.
So which eternal irrevocable law did Adam transgress, which wasn't considered a sin?
Why does it say that Eve recognized that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was "good for food" before she partook of it?
Last edited by LDS Watchman on September 8th, 2022, 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
No, this is incorrect. Please see 2 Nephi 2Obeone wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:16 pm
As I said, their eyes would have been opened whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to eat of it. This is why the tree was there.
But if they resisted the temptation as God commanded them, their eyes would have been opened without any transgression or fall, as millions of worlds have done before.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
You are wrong. "it is given unto thee" referred to the choice, not to the fruit. God never encourages anyone to transgress His commandments. "It is given unto thee to choose, but remember that I forbid it, and if you do it you will die."Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:23 pm Free agency is free agency. However, in this case God literally said that he was giving the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam and giving him the choice whether to eat of it or not. If he ate, he would die (become mortal and loose his innocence). There was no sin in what Adam did. He simply transgressed an eternal law of nature.
So which eternal irrevocable law did Adam transgress, which wasn't considered a sin?
Why does it say that Eve recognized that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was "good for food" before she partook of it?
How more clear could this have been?
The eternal law violated here was "Listen to God instead of listening to the devil." It does not get any more fundamental than this.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Why are you dodging my questions?Obeone wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:44 pmYou are wrong. "it is given unto thee" referred to the choice, not to the fruit. God never encourages anyone to transgress His commandments. "It is given unto thee to choose, but remember that I forbid it, and if you do it you will die."Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:23 pm Free agency is free agency. However, in this case God literally said that he was giving the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam and giving him the choice whether to eat of it or not. If he ate, he would die (become mortal and loose his innocence). There was no sin in what Adam did. He simply transgressed an eternal law of nature.
So which eternal irrevocable law did Adam transgress, which wasn't considered a sin?
Why does it say that Eve recognized that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was "good for food" before she partook of it?
How more clear could this have been?
The eternal law violated here was "Listen to God instead of listening to the devil." It does not get any more fundamental than this.
Also, God said that Adam was free to eat the fruit all on his own. He didn't listen to Satan either, Eve did. So his transgression was clearly not a violation of "Listen to God instead of listening to the devil."
Why aren't his actions referred to as sin? Why did Eve discover that the fruit was "good for food" prior to eating it?
Last edited by LDS Watchman on September 8th, 2022, 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
This is an imperfection in the way things are stated in this passage of the Book of Mormon. Technically correct if understood in context with other scriptures, but highly misleading if not.Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:26 pm 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
The way to fix it is:
Temptation was necessary, transgression was not.22 And now, behold, if Adam had not [been tempted] he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
The Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. It doesn't need your brackets twisting its meaning. If anything we should be inserting brackets to the verses in the Bible you insist aren't open to interpretation or nuance.Obeone wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:51 pmThis is an imperfection in the way things are stated in this passage of the Book of Mormon. Technically correct if understood in context with other scriptures, but highly misleading if not.Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:26 pm 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
The way to fix it is:
Temptation was necessary, transgression was not.22 And now, behold, if Adam had not [been tempted] he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
Speaking of the bible, you still haven't answered several of my questions about what Moses says.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Eve listened to Satan. Then after she fell, Satan sent her on a mission to seduce Adam, and she spoke Satan's words. So Adam hearkened to Satan through his fallen wife. Also "I will partake that men might be" was a Satan's lie that Adam repeated.Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:47 pm Also, God said that Adam was free to eat the fruit all on his own. He didn't listen to Satan either, Eve did. So his transgression was clearly not a violation of "Listen to God instead of listening to the devil."
Why aren't his actions referred to as sin? Why did Eve discover that the fruit was "good for food" prior to eating it?
He should have listened to God rather than to his fallen wife and the devil. That's why he was cursed.
His action was not sin, because his eyes were not yet opened when he committed it.
"Good for food" means it was a temptation for her. Good for food, but bad for the soul.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Moroni acknowledges the possibility (even probability) that there are faults in the Book.Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:56 pm The Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. It doesn't need your brackets twisting its meaning. If anything we should be inserting brackets to the verses in the Bible you insist aren't open to interpretation or nuance.
Speaking of the bible, you still haven't answered several of my questions about what Moses says.
The highly misleading passage about Adam is one of them.And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
There's no record of Satan telling Adam or Eve that they had to partake of the fruit in order to have children. Instead Adam and Eve reached this conclusion on their own. You're just making things up. And what you're making up contradicts the Book of Mormon.
You might recall that Eve tells Adam that "it is better to pass through sorrow that we may know the good from the evil," which is consistent with 2 Nephi 2.
Are innocent little children cursed for actions they take that go against God's instruction? No.
And since Adam and Eve are said to have been in this state prior to the fall, this explanation doesn't make sense. There has to be more to it.
Before partaking of the fruit Adam tells Eve "I see that this MUST be, I will partake that man may be." Which is again consistent with 2 Nephi 2.
How does "good for food" mean that it was a temptation for her?
Food means nourishment, either physical, spiritual, or both.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Moroni also said:Obeone wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 12:06 amMoroni acknowledges the possibility (even probability) that there are faults in the Book.Atticus wrote: ↑September 8th, 2022, 11:56 pm The Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. It doesn't need your brackets twisting its meaning. If anything we should be inserting brackets to the verses in the Bible you insist aren't open to interpretation or nuance.
Speaking of the bible, you still haven't answered several of my questions about what Moses says.The highly misleading passage about Adam is one of them.And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.
We also have many additional witnessses that 2 Nephi 2 is accurate. It is supported by the JST of Genesis, other scriptures, the temple, and the words of many of God's authorized servants.
You're trying to convince us to throw all of that out in favor of the sectarian view of the fall. See the problem.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Not everything Satan told them is recorded. But if you have someone trying to convince another to transgress God's commandments, you can be sure, they have been influenced by Satan.Atticus wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 7:11 am There's no record of Satan telling Adam or Eve that they had to partake of the fruit in order to have children. Instead Adam and Eve reached this conclusion on their own. You're just making things up. And what you're making up contradicts the Book of Mormon.
Satan told Eve: "Now go and get Adam to partake." So she did, as Satan told her. Are you getting the picture yet?
Yes. But they could have known sorrow, good and evil, without the fall, if they had done as God commanded them. God does not fall to know good and evil. Jesus did not fall nor yield to any temptation to know good and evil. He resisted the temptation, and thus gained his knowledge without any transgression. Adam and Eve should have done the same.
Well, let's see. If a child runs into a street after a ball and gets hit by a car, is that a sin? No. Is that a serious and deadly transgression? Yes.
Are they cursed by their actions? Indeed! They lose their life, or are horribly maimed because of their error. If that is not a curse (a punishment due to error), nothing is.
"I will partake that men might be" was a lie inspired by the devil.
Why?
Because men might be, and much better too if Adam did not partake, but obeyed God.
Well let's see. "This money this guy dropped by accident is good for food or to buy a PlayStation, therefore I am going to steal it." Get it?
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
2 Nephi 2 is technically accurate but incomplete and therefore highly misleading if taken out of context with the rest of the scriptures. This is one of the imperfections Moroni warned us about.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
There's nothing wrong with 2 Nephi 2. It's quite plain.
The problem is that you would rather believe the unenlightened sectarian view on the fall instead of the truth, which was restored through the restoration.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Your "enlightened" view is in direct contradiction to scripture.
It is NEVER a good idea to transgress the commandments of God, Adam's case included.
It is literally the doctrine of the devil, that there is no better way than to transgress the commandments of God.
Those who believe this lie will end up where devil will be, unless they change their minds.
That is scriptural.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
No, it isn't.
I even provided the scriptures which show that it isn't. I can't help that you just ignore or twist them to fit the sectarian view of the fall.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Not everything God told them is recorded, either. So this is a mute point. It doesn't give you the right to just make things up.Obeone wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 6:06 pmNot everything Satan told them is recorded.Atticus wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 7:11 am There's no record of Satan telling Adam or Eve that they had to partake of the fruit in order to have children. Instead Adam and Eve reached this conclusion on their own. You're just making things up. And what you're making up contradicts the Book of Mormon.
Especially since we have 2 Nephi 2, verifying that partaking of the fruit was required so that man might be. You keep forgetting about that.
Again, 2 Nephi 2 says otherwise. So does Moses 5:10-11.
How do you know that God the Father and Jesus Christ never fell at any point in their existence and eternal progression? You don't. You're just making things up again.
Adam and Eve did precisely what their Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had done previously.
Totally not the same thing. If a child eats fruit they are told not to, they aren't cursed for it. Children under the age of 8 do things that go against God's commandments all of the time, without any consequences.Obeone wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 6:06 pmWell, let's see. If a child runs into a street after a ball and gets hit by a car, is that a sin? No. Is that a serious and deadly transgression? Yes.
Are they cursed by their actions? Indeed! They lose their life, or are horribly maimed because of their error. If that is not a curse (a punishment due to error), nothing is.
Again. 2 Nephi 2 and Moses 5 say the exact opposite.
This makes no sense. The fruit was good for food because it was legitimately good for nourishment, either to body, spirit, or both.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
This is how I know:Atticus wrote: ↑September 9th, 2022, 7:26 pm How do you know that God the Father and Jesus Christ never fell at any point in their existence and eternal progression? You don't. You're just making things up again.
Adam and Eve did precisely what their Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had done previously.
D&C 20:21
21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.
Heb. 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.