The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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silverado
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by silverado »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 2:13 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:19 pm In the temple video Satan mentioned to God that he was simply doing what had been done in other worlds. Perhaps they were commanded both but didn't wait till the proper time to be given permission to eat and therefore keep both commands. Instead of asking how to fulfill both they sought their own way.
Perhaps.

Also, notice, the devil said: "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..."

Think of this for a moment. It is obvious that Satan tempted Adams in other worlds before. If in those worlds (millions of them) he was cursed every time (millions of times), why is he surprised now?

The truth seems to be that he was not cursed before, because though he tempted their Adam's it did not produce a fall because they rejected his temptation.

This earth seems to be the first one where Satan's temptation produced a fall, hence HERE he was cursed for the first time. Hence his complaining.

Thus of millions of worlds, this earth seems to be the first one that fell.

Those other earths began and continued in terrestrial, millennial state, precisely as God commanded them.

This proves again that there was a better way, had Adam listened to the Father.
"...cursest me for doing the same thing that was done..." doesn't sound like he did it, or else he would have said, "...cursest me for doing the same thing that I have done ..."

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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silverado wrote: September 9th, 2022, 8:42 pm "...cursest me for doing the same thing that was done..." doesn't sound like he did it, or else he would have said, "...cursest me for doing the same thing that I have done ..."
Already answered that here.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by LDS Watchman »

Obeone wrote: September 9th, 2022, 8:15 pm
Atticus wrote: September 9th, 2022, 7:26 pm How do you know that God the Father and Jesus Christ never fell at any point in their existence and eternal progression? You don't. You're just making things up again.

Adam and Eve did precisely what their Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had done previously.
This is how I know:
 D&C 20:21 
21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.

 Heb. 4:15 
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
This says nothing about the Father. Nor does it say anything about what the Son may or may not have done prior to his condescension to this earth.

How did he qualify to become a God prior to creating this earth? What do the scriptures and teachings of latter-day prophets tell us about eternal progression and how to become a God?

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 9th, 2022, 9:54 pm This says nothing about the Father. Nor does it say anything about what the Son may or may not have done prior to his condescension to this earth.

How did he qualify to become a God prior to creating this earth? What do the scriptures and teachings of latter-day prophets tell us about eternal progression and how to become a God?
You qualify for godhood by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them. You understanding of good and evil is inverted.

If you mean previous eternities, then he who is now Jesus, was not Jesus then. He was someone else. Therefore it is unfair and incorrect to say that Jesus ever transgressed.
Last edited by Obeone on September 10th, 2022, 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

silverado
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:18 pm
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 2:07 pm You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.
Whether or not Satan was personally on other world's is irrelevant to my conclusions.

Even if some other demons tempted the other Adams, the logic still applies:

If Lucifer knew that those devils were cursed every time they offered forbidden fruit to an Adam (millions of times), why should he be surprised when the same happened to him?

The answer is it didn't.

Those devils were not cursed for a fall because their temptations did not produce a fall, (because other Adams rejected their temptations and were blessed to live in a Millennial state right off the bat), but here on this earth, it did produce a fall, because our Adam chose wrong.

This is why the Savior was born on this world, and not on another. This one fell.
Maybe Satan had more evil intentions for tempting them. He wanted to control us. Maybe whoever tempted Adams on other planets only wanted to get things moving. Better intentions there, so not cursed.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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silverado wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:26 am Maybe Satan had more evil intentions for tempting them. He wanted to control us. Maybe whoever tempted Adams on other planets only wanted to get things moving. Better intentions there, so not cursed.
Bottom line, they were tempted the "same" as here, and they did not fall.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 9:44 am
Atticus wrote: September 9th, 2022, 9:54 pm This says nothing about the Father. Nor does it say anything about what the Son may or may not have done prior to his condescension to this earth.

How did he qualify to become a God prior to creating this earth? What do the scriptures and teachings of latter-day prophets tell us about eternal progression and how to become a God?
You qualify for godhood by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them. You understanding of good and evil is inverted.

If you mean previous eternities, then he who is now Jesus, was not Jesus then. He was someone else. Therefore it is unfair and incorrect to say that Jesus every transgressed.
Becoming a God is not as simple as simply resisting temptation. You have to learn by your own experience to choose the good from the evil. Part of that process is making mistakes and overcoming your sins and weaknesses through the power of the atonement.

Which is precisely why the fall was necessary. Just as 2 Nephi 2 states.

silverado
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:30 am
silverado wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:26 am Maybe Satan had more evil intentions for tempting them. He wanted to control us. Maybe whoever tempted Adams on other planets only wanted to get things moving. Better intentions there, so not cursed.
Bottom line, they were tempted the "same" as here, and they did not fall.
How do you know that they didn't fall?

Maybe the curse on Satan here was because he had a more evil reason for tempting.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 10th, 2022, 2:47 pm Becoming a God is not as simple as simply resisting temptation. You have to learn by your own experience to choose the good from the evil. Part of that process is making mistakes and overcoming your sins and weaknesses through the power of the atonement.

Which is precisely why the fall was necessary. Just as 2 Nephi 2 states.
It is a Satanic doctrine that sin, transgression or fall is ever necessary.
That which is "necessary" by definition is not a transgression.

Already explained it here.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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silverado wrote: September 10th, 2022, 4:56 pm How do you know that they didn't fall?

Maybe the curse on Satan here was because he had a more evil reason for tempting.
Already explained it here and here.

silverado
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by silverado »

'Here', 'here' and 'here' are your opinion. So you KNOW they didn't fall because you THINK you figured out why they didn't. Wow.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 6:32 pm
Atticus wrote: September 10th, 2022, 2:47 pm Becoming a God is not as simple as simply resisting temptation. You have to learn by your own experience to choose the good from the evil. Part of that process is making mistakes and overcoming your sins and weaknesses through the power of the atonement.

Which is precisely why the fall was necessary. Just as 2 Nephi 2 states.
It is a Satanic doctrine that sin, transgression or fall is ever necessary.
That which is "necessary" by definition is not a transgression.

Already explained it here.
So according to you the scriptures and prophets of God teach a Satanic doctrine in regards to the fall, and we're lucky to have some random guy on the internet to clear things up for us by telling us to reject the truths of the restored gospel in favor of sectarian Christianity.

You're a funny guy.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 10th, 2022, 9:01 pm
Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 6:32 pm It is a Satanic doctrine that sin, transgression or fall is ever necessary.
That which is "necessary" by definition is not a transgression.

Already explained it here.
So according to you the scriptures and prophets of God teach a Satanic doctrine in regards to the fall, and we're lucky to have some random guy on the internet to clear things up for us by telling us to reject the truths of the restored gospel in favor of sectarian Christianity.

You're a funny guy.
The scriptures do not teach the error; they are correct, and they agree with me. But some of the prophets apparently have opinions in direct contradiction with scripture on the subject, and the Church believes this lie in general.

This is why Zion has not been redeemed yet, because it cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, as I said in the OP.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 10:19 pm
The scriptures do not teach the error; they are correct, and they agree with me.
This false. 2 Nephi 2, Moses 5, and other scriptures teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:25 pm
Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 10:19 pm
The scriptures do not teach the error; they are correct, and they agree with me.
This false. 2 Nephi 2, Moses 5, and other scriptures teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
Nope. You are misinterpreting them.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by LDS Watchman »

Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:27 pm
Atticus wrote: September 10th, 2022, 11:25 pm
Obeone wrote: September 10th, 2022, 10:19 pm
The scriptures do not teach the error; they are correct, and they agree with me.
This false. 2 Nephi 2, Moses 5, and other scriptures teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
Nope. You are misinterpreting them.
Lol. Keep telling yourself that.

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abijah
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Image

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Luke
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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abijah wrote: September 11th, 2022, 3:15 pm Image
Welcome back.

I see you remembered the password to your old account

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nightlight
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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abijah wrote: September 11th, 2022, 3:15 pm Image
Hello my friend!!!!!

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Another point.

If you believe the nonsense some people say, then the Lord is supposedly said to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply. Here is this beautiful garden we planted for you, take good care of it, be happy and have joy therein. But ... if you wish to multiply you will be kicked out of it, and unless you are kicked out of it, you cannot have joy anyway. So sorry."

That is quite insane. But they believe this garbage. They cannot imagine that God actually meant what He said that they should have joy therein, that somehow God wanted them to disobey Him, making Him a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all, and other nonsense like that. And if you point it out to them, they call you a "sectarian."

Insane.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Disarming the lie so widely implied through Eve's quote:
 Moses 5:11 
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our [temptation] we never [could] have had seed, and never [could] have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Why? Because temptation was necessary, but transgression was not.

There was a better way for Adam in the garden, had he chosen to obey God more than his fallen wife and the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

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mcusick
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Not to get down in the weeds with my interpretation of this, but I think I will put it out there.

The fall is often confused because there is a fall of Adam and Eve (the individuals) and there is a fall of Adam (mankind). They are parallel, but not totally the same. Think about Isaiah 14 and the prophesy against the king of Babylon. We accept this as two individuals (the actual king and Satan) or classes of individuals (more generally, the wicked). It's important to keep in mind that the garden of Eden operates on two levels.

Therefore, I would argue that a verse like this: "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy," is not saying "Adam fell that men might be, and the fall is totally a great thing." I think it is a statement about the two Adams' falls: "The individual Adam fell that the other Adam [us] might exist, and Adam [us] exists so that we can have an opportunity (not guarantee) for joy."

You are Adam, you may not remember it, but before you came here you disobeyed your Father and were cast out of his presence. The First Adam transgressed so that you could exist (i.e., so you could be liberated from your captors before your birth) and have an opportunity to repent (i.e., he let sin enter this world, so you could exist....you could not exist in a holy place and can only exist in a fallen world). The Second Adam came to overcome death and sin, showing it is possible to not transgress and ascend to the Father.

The fall is not a good thing, but we [Adam/mankind] required this environment. This is the state our souls had to be restored to. "Is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?"

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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If the fall was "necessary" then the atonement was unnecessary.
To God "necessary" means:
  1. God commanded it, and
  2. It is your duty to do it, and
  3. You will be blessed if you do it, and
  4. You will be cursed if you do not.
That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.

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abijah
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Who knows who wounded the Leviathan at the time of Creation? 🤔 (Rev 13) (someone did...)

Who knows what this has to do with the fall 🤔🤔 a sea-beast (snake) that gets wounded for a land-beast (serpent) to *roll-up on-screen* (language = deliberate), if only someone told John something like that. Given him a *revelation* or something, about a sea-monster and a land-behemoth trying to overthrow a world.

I wonder if Adam/Michael would have anything to do with any of this.. 🤔

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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This goes squarely with the false teachings of the Church about the fall: 🤣

Study Finds 100% Of Men Would Eat Any Fruit Given To Them By A Naked Woman
Image
WEST OF EDEN - A double-blind study conducted by angel scientists has confirmed that 100% of men would eat any fruit given to them by a naked woman. The study seems to suggest that the fall of Adam and Eve was unavoidable.

"Our results were conclusive," said the angel Gabriel, who led the study. "Of the 30,000 male test subjects we studied, we found literally 100% of them would happily accept and eat any piece of fruit handed to them by a woman who was naked. Even in cases where it wasn't fruit - or even edible - all the males gratefully accepted every single object offered and ate it with a dumb look on their face."

Gabriel then motioned to a male test subject on the other side of the glass as he happily chewed on a rubber ball that had just been handed to him by a gorgeous unclothed woman.

"See what I mean?"

Researchers say the results should serve to humble any man who thinks he would have made a different decision than Adam. "According to the science, you would have likely done the exact same thing Adam did," said Gabriel.

Women around the world started to gloat upon hearing the news until Gabriel revealed they also conducted a study showing that 100% of women can be tricked by a talking snake.
https://babylonbee.com/news/study-finds ... aked-woman

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