The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[Obeone]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[4Joshua8]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

[LDS Watchman]

Adam and Eve were resurrected beings before they came to this earth. The fall was necessary for them to become mortal again so they could have children and create mortal bodies for all of mankind.

The fall happens on every earth. It's part of the plan of plan of salvation. There literally is no other way.

[Sarah]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

It's no different than realizing that God wants each one of us to suffer and face opposition, which leads us all to inevitably sin during our mortal lives. You might say it's a "crappy foundation" to build on, to think that God must want us all to sin, for he full well knows that sending us all here will cause us to sin, just like he full well knew that Adam and Eve would transgress with the circumstances he put them in. Our circumstances are no different. We all are "set up to fail" in order that we can learn good and evil and need a Savior.

[4Joshua8]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

It's no different than realizing that God wants each one of us to suffer and face opposition, which leads us all to inevitably sin during our mortal lives. You might say it's a "crappy foundation" to build on, to think that God must want us all to sin, for he full well knows that sending us all here will cause us to sin, just like he full well knew that Adam and Eve would transgress with the circumstances he put them in. Our circumstances are no different. We all are "set up to fail" in order that we can learn good and evil and need a Savior.

Does God give commandments with a wink? Or does He provide a way to keep all of His commandments?

In order for God to not be the villain in all this, He must have had a way to progress through the righteous use of agency and free will in obedience.

Or, do you believe these are God’s real “believe-me-this-time-I-pinky-swear-I’m-not-misleading-you-like-I-did-Adam-and-Eve” commandments?

Thou shalt worship false gods
Thou Shalt commit adultery
Thou shalt bear false witness
Thou shalt steal
Etc?

[TheDuke]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

got a reference to this statement? I don't think there is one. That is just your opinion. God gave a bunch of laws to Adam, he never said what was the highest law, likely to have no other god's before him, but no where does it say that not eating the fruit (unlikely real tree fruit anyway) was the highest law, seems the highest was to populate the earth with offspring, and to be with his eternal mate, no matter what happens. But, the later (like your former) is opinion (based on JS teachings of course).

BTW that is why isn't called Adam's sin but only Adam's transgression. Transgression is no sin but much lower and not counted as evil as sin is.

[Sarah]

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

It's no different than realizing that God wants each one of us to suffer and face opposition, which leads us all to inevitably sin during our mortal lives. You might say it's a "crappy foundation" to build on, to think that God must want us all to sin, for he full well knows that sending us all here will cause us to sin, just like he full well knew that Adam and Eve would transgress with the circumstances he put them in. Our circumstances are no different. We all are "set up to fail" in order that we can learn good and evil and need a Savior.

Does God give commandments with a wink? Or does He provide a way to keep all of His commandments?

In order for God to not be the villain in all this, He must have had a way to progress through the righteous use of agency and free will in obedience.

Or, do you believe these are God’s real “believe-me-this-time-I-pinky-swear-I’m-not-misleading-you-like-I-did-Adam-and-Eve” commandments?

Thou shalt worship false gods
Thou Shalt commit adultery
Thou shalt bear false witness
Thou shalt steal
Etc?

Well, that's my point, that God is always going to be the villain in all of our lives. He sets us all up to sin and suffer in this life. He even tells us in the D&C that he gives us the impression of one thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean what we think it means. And he does it to get us to think a certain way. He's shown us that many of his commandments are okay to break if he commands otherwise.

His commandments have to do with general behaviors and the motivation or intent behind the behavior. The motivation and intent is more important than the action. So the action of sex for example - something that can easily be abused and used for selfish reasons - he puts bounds on the behavior. Killing, bad in most cases, but okay in other cases. Disobeying a former commandment in order to obey another - disobeying is wrong, but with Adam and Eve, it comes down what the motivation was and whether he approves of it or not. That's how we are judged. Eve and Adam were innocent. We are not. So their circumstance is unique, and we should not put bounds on what God can do to manipulate the circumstances and actions of his children in order that we can all learn from it.

[onefour1]

God could never create mankind to be perfect. And by perfect, I mean to be a being just like God himself. The reason God could not do this is because there is a part of mankind that God could never create known as man's intelligence. The intelligence within all mankind was not created by God and neither indeed could be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

I believe Abraham expressed this same concept:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

The intelligent part of mankind was not created or made but has always existed. Our intelligence is coeternal with God himself. If all the intelligence of mankind self-existed but were not perfect, there was no way for God to simply bring about perfection within us through creation. The way to perfection is through learning good and evil and choosing the good over the evil. God tells us that when our intelligence is combined with element that we receive a greater amount of joy.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

So gaining a spirit body which to me is acquiring spirit matter and combining that with our intelligence that has always existed gives us more joy. And then combining the courser matter that our bodies now enjoy gives us an even higher degree of joy. Once we are resurrected, our spirits will be inseparably connected to this more course matter and we can then receive a fulness of joy. But the perfection of God involves more than an inseparably connected spirit with eternal matter. It involves learning good and evil and overcoming the evil. I believe the way in which man learns good and evil, in a very concrete way, is by entering into a mortal existence and actually experiencing the grand contrast between good and evil. Of course being subject to a mortal world forever would be cruel. So to learn good and evil and to have the chance to become like God and prize the good over the evil, God has us come to a mortal world for a temporary amount of time. This grand lesson will stick with us for the rest of eternity. I believe the way of eternity and becoming more like God, is to come to a mortal world and learn the difference between good and evil and learn to choose for ourselves the good over the evil. This process, I believe, is essential for our eternal progression. I believe we all chose to come to a mortal life and this was the reason that there was a grand council in heaven to plan for this grand experience. In that grand council, Jehovah, aka Jesus Christ was chosen and selected to be the Savior of mankind.

God set up a situation in which he would place two innocent beings who knew nothing about good and evil and placed them in a paradise on earth known as the Garden of Eden. But he also placed Satan and his minions here on earth to tempt Adam and Eve. God knew that the only way for mankind to become more like himself was to allow his children to learn good and evil and learn to overcome evil and choose good. God also knew that mankind would need to make the choice of good over evil of their own free will and choice. This was critical in order to become more like God. God is a being of free will and chooses good over evil in and of himself. Nobody makes God do what he does. He is a free will being that chooses in and of himself to be good. This is the only way to bring about perfection in mankind. They must learn to choose in and of themselves to be good! God knew before the foundation of this earth what all our weaknesses were and that being placed into such a position of good and evil that anyone of us would have succumbed to the temptation. Thus He knew from the beginning the character and nature of imperfect beings. But God put us into this position anyway because it was the only way for mankind to come to a grand understanding of good and evil and the only way for us to learn in and of ourselves to choose good over evil. God gave these two innocent beings a simple commandment to not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and that if they did they would surely die that very same day.

At that time God had not yet given Adam and Eve their time of reckoning and one day to the Lord was 1000 years. It is interesting that nobody on this earth has lived over 1000 years. The oldest living patriarch was Methuselah who lived to be 969 years old. So unless a person was translated, the normal life of man has never exceeded that one day to the Lord. But all God did was to place two innocent beings in a state that he knew they would eventually break his simple commandment. God already knew that Adam and Eve would fall before the foundation of the earth. For this reason he called and chose Jesus Christ to be a Savior. God was allowing mankind to fall. This was part of mankind's eternal progression. God gave Adam and Eve a commandment that He knew they would break. If God did not want this, he would not have placed them in the Garden along with Satan and his minions knowing full well that they would fall. God knew the outcome way before it ever occurred and was ok with it. He gave the commandment knowing full well that it would be broken. In the Grand Council in heaven this was all planned for and a Savior was chosen. It was never part of the known outcome that mankind would remain in their innocent state, not knowing good and evil, forever and ever. God knew that Satan's temptation would bring about the breaking of his commandment and that the fall would occur. There was 0 chance that they would not fall. God knows the end from the beginning and chose to go through with this eternal plan of allowing mankind to fall and experience a world of good and evil so that they could become more like God himself. Notice the temptation of Satan with Eve.

2 Nephi 2:18
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

Here Satan mixes truth with a lie. He tells the truth that they will become as God knowing good and evil. But he also tells them that they would not die which was a lie. God said, "for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". Moses writes:

Moses 4:11
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Clearly eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a step toward becoming as the gods, knowing good and evil. It was never God's plan that Adam and Eve remain in and innocent state not knowing good and evil and not progressing to become more like Himself. God had to give Adam and Eve a command to not eat of tree in order that they would be disobedient to God and bring about the fall. God would not be justified in forcing mankind to fall without them breaking his commandment. God knowing the imperfection and weaknesses of man used this knowledge to bring about a greater good so that mankind could progress to become more like God himself. It was never the desire of God that Adam and Eve remain in a state of innocence not knowing good and evil but he used their weakness to bring about the greater good and all mankind are born into this fallen state to go through this mortal probation. But God would not leave us in a fallen world and prepared a way that we all would eventually resurrect and live immortally in an inseparably connected body of flesh and bones and gave all of us the opportunity to prove ourselves worthy to live eternally in the celestial kingdom and have eternal life.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Obeone]

No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:

That contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.

When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.

Instead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.

Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them. God does not, and cannot contradict Himself.

The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.

This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years.

The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall

If the fall was "necessary" then the atonement was unnecessary.

If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.

The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.

So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.

To God "necessary" means:

1. God commanded it, and
2. It is your duty to do it, and
3. You will be blessed if you do it, and
4. You will be cursed if you do not.

That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.

Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression.

No, children in the millennium if they are not presented with the bitter cannot be said to have chosen the sweet and earn the associated reward. I did not say that there are not worlds where there is less opposition, and if there are then they do not produce gods. My understanding of the millennium is that Satan is bound only according to the righteousness of the people. A mortal child born during that time would therefore still have to choose God over Satan to bind him personally as well. And this is what those noble spirits are prophesied to do up until the little season at the end when people begin again to choose Satan over God. But, again, without the choice to be bad no one can be called good.

I agree with that.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Father undergoing greater opposition than the Son and yet not living on a fallen world. You'll have to expand on that for, if you don't mind.

The atonement of the Father was greater than the atonement of the Son, because the Father is grater than the Son.

The atonement of the Father took place some time at the beginning of this eternity before the Father was allowed to create and people the Universe.

Because God is almighty, He is personally responsible for all the wickedness and mistakes He allows to be committed by His creations, just like earthly parents are held responsible for all the mistakes of their little children.

Therefore the Father experienced and overcame all the consequences of the mistakes of all of His creations, before He was allowed to create them.

And in contrast to the Son, the Father did not die from the ordeal, therefore His suffering was greater than that of the Son (because death is an escape, and the Father had none).

In fact, the Father is literally "the Man that lived" (allusion to Harry Potter "the boy that lived"), because He is the only one in the eternity who came into contact with the fullness of suffering and survived.

[EvanLM]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

hahahahahahahaaha sounds pretty bad. perhaps you are still at milk . . .your choice to get past milk and do the things you need to understand the plan of salvation. We both listen to the same prophets and have the same scriptures and th same HG and the same Savior. How bout you do the right work if you really want to understand.

I would also warn you to be careful what you say or post about God. He never wants us to sin nor did he put us in a state to be evil or not get back to him of fail. When you make such a blasphemous comment then you don't even understand who God is. . .let alone the plan of salvation. It shows that you certainly don't know Jesus Christ or his atonement.

[EvanLM]

No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:

That contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.

When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.

Instead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.

Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them. God does not, and cannot contradict Himself.

The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.

This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years.

The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall

If the fall was "necessary" than the atonement was unnecessary.

If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.

The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.

So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.

To God "necessary" means:

1. God commanded it, and
2. It is your duty to do it, and
3. You will be blessed if you do it, and
4. You will be cursed if you do not.

That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.

Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression.

No, children in the millennium if they are not presented with the bitter cannot be said to have chosen the sweet and earn the associated reward. I did not say that there are not worlds where there is less opposition, and if there are then they do not produce gods. My understanding of the millennium is that Satan is bound only according to the righteousness of the people. A mortal child born during that time would therefore still have to choose God over Satan to bind him personally as well. And this is what those noble spirits are prophesied to do up until the little season at the end when people begin again to choose Satan over God. But, again, without the choice to be bad no one can be called good.

I agree with that.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Father undergoing greater opposition than the Son and yet not living on a fallen world. You'll have to expand on that for, if you don't mind.

The atonement of the Father was greater than the atonement of the Son, because the Father is grater than the Son.

The atonement of the Father took place some time at the beginning of this eternity before the Father was allowed to create and people the Universe.

Because God is almighty, He is personally responsible for all the wickedness and mistakes He allows to be committed by His creations, just like earthly parents are held responsible for all the mistakes of their little children.

Therefore the Father experienced and overcame all the consequences of the mistakes of all of His creations, before He was allowed to create them.

And in contrast to the Son, the Father did not die from the ordeal, therefore His suffering was greater than that of the Son (because death is an escape, and the Father had none).

In fact, the Father is literally "the Man that lived" (allusion to Harry Potter "the boy that lived"), because He is the only one in the eternity who came into contact with the fullness of suffering and survived.

you changed the subject of the post. so this was just an opportunity to post some incredulously stupid doctrine that you just needed to share. I don't like the bait. Even your accountof Adam and Eve is so off base.

[EvanLM]

t when our intelligence is combined with element that we receive a greater amount of joy.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

no it doesn't state that we receive a greater amount. fullness of joy is the life that god lives. so resurrection and exaltation gives us that fulness

[Obeone]

no, I think htye were told tha they would remain in the same state, without progress, if they didn't eat the fruit.

Temptation was necessary to open their eyes. But yielding to the temptation was not.

If Adam and Eve were not tempted, they would have remained unchanged forever, as Lehi said.

But though exposure to temptation was necessary, yielding to the temptation was unnecessary.

And if Adam resisted the temptation enough, his eyes would have been opened without transgression, and he would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as God commanded him.

For it is the exposure to temptation that opens eyes to know good and evil, and not fruits and trees.

This is why it was called "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened.

the only place that is lower than this kingdom is hell and the only way to gain the experience of this kingdom and ascend to higher kingdoms with a mortal body, was to fall to the lowest of the three kingdoms

so here we are

Are you then saying that those in the Millennium will not inherit celestial kingdom?

The Father did not fall (though He descended below all things in suffering), yet he is above all.

[Obeone]

The first commandment from God was to have children
The second commandment was to eat of the fruit but not the forbidden fruit


Eve was tempted and ate, Adam ate so he wouldn't be separated from Eve. Adam fell that men might be ,he wouldn't have children without Eve who would be cast out for sin and leave Adam alone in the garden.

"Thous shalt be left alone man in the Garden of Eden" was a lie originated by Satan, and transmitted through Eve.

If Eve fell and Adam did not, God would have given Adam another wife who would have listened to God more than to the devil in this thing.

[Obeone]

I get the feeling that you don't have much of an understanding of the eternal nature of a celestial marriage covenant. It is the highest covenant you can make, it supersedes all other covenants. You don't just walk away from it, that is if you're serious about being like the father. It is where you transcend from being a single contributor to a god-like partnership.

I am sure after her punishment, Eve would have eventually come back to Adam, if Adam did not fall, perhaps after her resurrection?

[Obeone]

Adam understood he had to eat just like Eve understood she had to eat.

They were both deceived.

2 Nephi 9:9 
... that being who beguiled our first parents, ...

Ether 8:25 
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

This is conclusive proof that Adam and Eve were deceived.

We are taught garbage in this Church on the matter.

[Obeone]

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:

1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
3. They COULD do it. See point (1).

End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

C.S. Lewis' science fiction trilogy envisions how a planet with no fall might look. From Wikipedia:

Out of the Silent Planet (1938), set mostly on Mars (Malacandra). In this book, Dr. Elwin Ransom is kidnapped and transported to Mars. While there, he meets the planet's various inhabitants and discovers that Earth is exiled from the rest of the Solar System.
Perelandra (1943). Also known as Voyage to Venus. Here, Dr. Ransom journeys to an unspoiled Venus (Perelandra), where he participates in a good vs. evil battle.
That Hideous Strength (1945), set on Earth. A scientific think tank called the N.I.C.E. (The National Institute of Co-ordinated Experiments) is secretly in touch with demonic entities who plan to assume control of the Earth.

Look up Valiant Thor and what he had to say about the fall.

[Joan7]

I think that the general commandment to not kill was not revoked with Abraham. He still was under that command, in that he couldn't kill whomever ever he wanted. It was a case of receiving an additional commandment that violated the first, but was an exception to violate the general commandment because it was an additional commandment. I think we can look at the commands in the garden the same way. They had two commandments, and they had to violate one in order to obey the other.

Not at all.

Let me rephrase this: Commandment not to kill Isaac (as part of general commandment) was rescinded. After which the commandment to kill Isaac was also rescinded.

No commandment was broken by Abraham AT ALL.

Why? Because these were sequential commandments with the last overriding previous one.

With Adam it was not the case AT ALL. Commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit was not rescinded at any time. It was in full force.

So you are incorrect.

May I suggest that you are using human logic to attempt to explain a Godly situation. Neither you, nor I, know the specifics of what happened, because in our present state we are not likely to be able to understand.

[Obeone]

the millenium will be without temptation until the very end.

Not true. Without temptation there is no knowledge of good and evil.

People in the Millennium will be tempted, but they will reject the temptation.

[Obeone]

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

Higher law was NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit.

I already explained that in context with other scriptures, they COULD have had posterity without the fall, if they simply resisted the temptation enough.

Both Adam and Eve were wrong, for which they were cursed.

That is the plain reading of the scriptures, and the testimony of the Spirit.

The Church has been in the wilderness for almost 200 years without Zion in part because it believes the very lie that caused the fall in the first place, and it cannot be redeemed while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place.

Therefore God will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede His work. I give it another 5 years or so, and we are going to have an apology from Adam himself when he will testify to the stubborn church that he was wrong, and that there indeed was a better way for him in the garden had he listened to the Father more than to the devil.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I appreciate you tackling this head on. It’s an important matter. Going with the status quo on this topic leaves a soul in a strange place, one where God wants us to break His commandments. I find it difficult to teach the value of virtue, eternal laws, eternal principles, and commandments in a church that actually believes God gave Adam and Eve commandments, commandments that were still in force, He wanted them to break. What a crappy foundation to build upon.

Well said.

[Obeone]

Adam and Eve were resurrected beings before they came to this earth. The fall was necessary for them to become mortal again so they could have children and create mortal bodies for all of mankind.

The fall happens on every earth. It's part of the plan of plan of salvation. There literally is no other way.

False on every count, as already explained.

[Obeone]

It's no different than realizing that God wants each one of us to suffer and face opposition, which leads us all to inevitably sin during our mortal lives. You might say it's a "crappy foundation" to build on, to think that God must want us all to sin, for he full well knows that sending us all here will cause us to sin, just like he full well knew that Adam and Eve would transgress with the circumstances he put them in. Our circumstances are no different. We all are "set up to fail" in order that we can learn good and evil and need a Savior.

We are set up to win.

[Sarah]

Adam understood he had to eat just like Eve understood she had to eat.

They were both deceived.

2 Nephi 9:9 
... that being who beguiled our first parents, ...

Ether 8:25 
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

This is conclusive proof that Adam and Eve were deceived.

We are taught garbage in this Church on the matter.

Just because they were deceived or beguiled doesn't mean they were ignorant about what they should do to move forward. Remember, Eve immediately states her motivation. It is better for us to pass through sorrow... they were also innocent, so under no covenant to obey.

[Obeone]

got a reference to this statement? I don't think there is one. That is just your opinion. God gave a bunch of laws to Adam, he never said what was the highest law, likely to have no other god's before him, but no where does it say that not eating the fruit (unlikely real tree fruit anyway) was the highest law, seems the highest was to populate the earth with offspring, and to be with his eternal mate, no matter what happens. But, the later (like your former) is opinion (based on JS teachings of course).

The higher law is that which is in force.

Also Adam could perfectly well populate the earth without any fall required. All he needed was to resist the temptation enough, which would have opened his eyes enough to have children, which would have opened them completely without any transgression or fall.

That was Plan A that the Father gave.

And if there was no Plan A, what is it that they fell from?

[Obeone]

Well, that's my point, that God is always going to be the villain in all of our lives. He sets us all up to sin and suffer in this life. He even tells us in the D&C that he gives us the impression of one thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean what we think it means. And he does it to get us to think a certain way. He's shown us that many of his commandments are okay to break if he commands otherwise.

His commandments have to do with general behaviors and the motivation or intent behind the behavior. The motivation and intent is more important than the action. So the action of sex for example - something that can easily be abused and used for selfish reasons - he puts bounds on the behavior. Killing, bad in most cases, but okay in other cases. Disobeying a former commandment in order to obey another - disobeying is wrong, but with Adam and Eve, it comes down what the motivation was and whether he approves of it or not. That's how we are judged. Eve and Adam were innocent. We are not. So their circumstance is unique, and we should not put bounds on what God can do to manipulate the circumstances and actions of his children in order that we can all learn from it.

You cannot "break" a commandment that is revoked.