The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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onefour1
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by onefour1 »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 2:13 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:19 pm In the temple video Satan mentioned to God that he was simply doing what had been done in other worlds. Perhaps they were commanded both but didn't wait till the proper time to be given permission to eat and therefore keep both commands. Instead of asking how to fulfill both they sought their own way.
Perhaps.

Also, notice, the devil said: "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..."

Think of this for a moment. It is obvious that Satan tempted Adams in other worlds before. If in those worlds (millions of them) he was cursed every time (millions of times), why is he surprised now?

The truth seems to be that he was not cursed before, because though he tempted their Adam's it did not produce a fall because they rejected his temptation.

This earth seems to be the first one where Satan's temptation produced a fall, hence HERE he was cursed for the first time. Hence his complaining.

Thus of millions of worlds, this earth seems to be the first one that fell.

Those other earths began and continued in terrestrial, millennial state, precisely as God commanded them.

This proves again that there was a better way, had Adam listened to the Father.
So from the statement, "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..." you are implying that Satan was on those other worlds. But the statement doesn't say that. Also you are implying from that statement that these other worlds did not have a different Satan like character or that there was not another way that the people on them could have fallen. That is a big stretch from that statement. My take on it is that a fall has occurred on all other worlds and Satan is complaining that God is punishing him for partaking in what God has allowed to happen on other worlds. Satan probably feels that he is justified in doing what he did since it was done on all other worlds. What is not clear is how people came to fall on other worlds and whether there is a Satan like character on these other worlds who were punished for their role. We don't know how people of other worlds fell but the conversation seems to indicate that Satan did that which was done in other worlds or in other words, brought about the fall. I would take that as if a fall did occur on all other worlds and if he was doing that which was done on these other worlds that a fall occurred on them as well. To imply that Satan was on these other worlds and that he was never punished for doing the same thing he always does is reading into the statement much of what is not there.

God placed a tree in the Garden and named it the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was not this tree the key to gaining knowledge of good and evil? Was there really another way? If there was, then why place the tree in the garden in the first place and name it such? God then commands not to partake of it or else you will surely die. Partaking of the tree in and of itself was not what brought upon them the fall. It was the disobedience to his command to not partake of it that created a transgression which brought on the fall. The fall itself is what really, in my estimation brought about man's beginning of understanding good and evil. At that time they lost the blessing of living in a paradise and were cast out into the lone and dreary world. They became subject to illness and death and other things around them also died. They got their first lesson on disobedience to God's commands. They from that point began to experience good and evil. This, although harsh and difficult was part of God's plan so that mankind could know good and evil and learn to prize the good over the evil. I don't believe that there was any other way for them to acquire a deep understanding of good and evil and gain the strength to resist evil except by experiencing it first hand and this experience made them to become like God, to know good and evil.
Last edited by onefour1 on September 7th, 2022, 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:11 am No, you didn't previously answer the points I made. Please actually address them.

Where did God command them not fall? The allegorical account in Moses and Abraham we have has God telling them not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and warning them that they would die if they did. Nowhere does it say that God commanded them NOT to fall.
The fall was produced by disobedience and transgression
Alma 42:12 
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
God commanded Adam NOT to transgress, and thus not to fall. Simple.
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:11 am In other threads you brought up the temple endowment, so I'm assuming that you believe what is taught there is truth. The temple endowment clearly teaches that Adam was one of the Gods who created the earth and that he came here for the purpose of falling. Which is consistent with what is taught in the scriptures.
He came here to keep Gods commandments. You got it backwards.

It is NEVER the duty of man to transgress God's commandments. The doctrine that man must disobey God is from the devil.

All who teach that Adam needed to transgress, unwittingly repeat the lie of the devil.

This is why Zion is still not redeemed.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:37 am So from the statement, "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..." you are implying that Satan was on those other worlds. But the statement doesn't say that. Also you are implying from that statement that these other worlds did not have a different Satan like character or that there was not another way that the people on them could have fallen. That is a big stretch from that statement. My take on it is that a fall has occurred on all other worlds and Satan is complaining that God is punishing him for partaking in what God has allowed to happen on other worlds. Satan probably feels that he is justified in doing what he did since it was done on all other worlds. What is not clear is how people came to fall on other worlds and whether there is a Satan like character on these other worlds who were punished for their role. We don't know how people of other worlds fell but the conversation seems to indicate that Satan did that which was done in other worlds or in other words, brought about the fall. I would take that as if a fall did occur on all other worlds and if he doing that which was done on these other worlds that a fall occurred on them as well. To imply that Satan was on these other worlds and that he was never punished for doing the same thing he always does is reading into the statement much of what is not there.
That makes no sense at all. If you are cursed millions of times before, what is the point of saying "if thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..."?

The implication is clear that in other worlds he did the same thing but was not cursed, because there was no fall.

If you cannot see it, doesn't mean I can't.
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:37 am God placed a tree in the Garden and named it the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was not this tree the key to gaining knowledge of good and evil? Was there really another way? If there was, then why place the tree in the garden in the first place and name it such?
already answered it here.

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nightlight
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Alexander wrote: September 6th, 2022, 11:15 pm
nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:39 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:33 pm
nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:20 pm

Source: "trust me bro" jk 😂


At the end of the Millennium, when Satan is let out again, who does he began to deceive?
The sons and daughters of God and Adam and Eve.
So...you are saying he deceives those who take part in the first resurrection? Resurrected men and women who took part in the atonement, those who are one with the fathersonholyGhost?
Yes. The sons and daughters of God are tempted at the end of the millennium (during the war in heaven) and those won over secure a place in the kingdom of darkness to become sons of perdition.
No. You are just pulling stuff out now

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by LDS Watchman »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:38 am
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:11 am No, you didn't previously answer the points I made. Please actually address them.

Where did God command them not fall? The allegorical account in Moses and Abraham we have has God telling them not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and warning them that they would die if they did. Nowhere does it say that God commanded them NOT to fall.
The fall was produced by disobedience and transgression
Alma 42:12 
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
God commanded Adam NOT to transgress, and thus not to fall. Simple.
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:11 am In other threads you brought up the temple endowment, so I'm assuming that you believe what is taught there is truth. The temple endowment clearly teaches that Adam was one of the Gods who created the earth and that he came here for the purpose of falling. Which is consistent with what is taught in the scriptures.
He came here to keep Gods commandments. You got it backwards.

It is NEVER the duty of man to transgress God's commandments. The doctrine that man must disobey God is from the devil.

All who teach that Adam needed to transgress, unwittingly repeat the lie of the devil.

This is why Zion is still not redeemed.
You still haven't actually addressed my points and are clearly dodging my questions.

You appear to be claiming that Adam, Eve, Moses, Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Joseph Smith, and countless other servants of God, have all been teaching lies in regards to the fall, and that we should disregard their teachings and listen to you instead.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

Maroriginal1
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Adam and Eve had two trees to choose from. One bitter and freely accessible, one sweet and forbidden. Bitter implies it was not yet ripe. To me that is the biggest clue in all of this. Was there another way if one patiently waits for the fruit to ripen? Why have it in the garden? Why have it protected after they fall? We focus so much on the tree of knowledge at the expense of ignoring the tree that was not forbidden and freely available.

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Baurak Ale
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Baurak Ale »

Obeone wrote: September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:
That contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.
I literally cited 1 Corinthians 15 for you in support of that statement. It contradicts nothing if you read it correctly instead of applying your modern understanding of "should" vs "could" to read odd subtleties into the plain verses. I gave you examples from the 1828 edition of the Webster's dictionary to show you how that word was interpreted in Joseph Smith's day. You never did respond to that.
Obeone wrote: September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.
Instead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.

Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them....
'That contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.'
Obeone wrote: September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.

This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years....

If the fall was "necessary" then the atonement was unnecessary.

If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.

The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.

So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.

To God "necessary" means:
  1. God commanded it, and
  2. It is your duty to do it, and
  3. You will be blessed if you do it, and
  4. You will be cursed if you do not.
That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.

Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression....

The atonement of the Father was greater than the atonement of the Son, because the Father is grater than the Son.

The atonement of the Father took place some time at the beginning of this eternity before the Father was allowed to create and people the Universe.

Because God is almighty, He is personally responsible for all the wickedness and mistakes He allows to be committed by His creations, just like earthly parents are held responsible for all the mistakes of their little children.

Therefore the Father experienced and overcame all the consequences of the mistakes of all of His creations, before He was allowed to create them.

And in contrast to the Son, the Father did not die from the ordeal, therefore His suffering was greater than that of the Son (because death is an escape, and the Father had none).

In fact, the Father is literally "the Man that lived" (allusion to Harry Potter "the boy that lived"), because He is the only one in the eternity who came into contact with the fullness of suffering and survived.
I now believe that you are a troll on this forum. How can you pretend to deny the plainness of the scriptures that quote Lehi and mother Eve as to the necessity of the fall (and by extension the necessity of the atonement of Christ) and yet simultaneously implicitly trust the scriptures in other places to be literal and not allegorical in order to attempt to justify your humanly reasoned understanding of what God can and cannot do? IT IS A MASS OF CONFUSION let alone a brazen attempt to set stakes against deity.

Then you invent all of these things about the atonement of the Father and how he did not have to die?? I don't care for your pretended revelations, but you must admit that what you are promulgating here is based on your personal revelations, which revelations require you to wrest the scriptures fully to justify. God being responsible for the evil done by his children? That shows a fundamental flaw in your understanding of evil, agency, and the eternal nature of yourself, let alone God.

Oh my, and then you have to do some more personal redefining of plain words such as "necessary" to cover your tracks calling the atonement of Christ unnecessary. Face it, your theology, which is definitionally anti-Mormon, relegates Christ and his working out of his kingdom in fear and trembling to "Plan B." I don't want to be around when you have to explain that to him at the judgement bar.

You have nothing but disappointment ahead of you, I'm afraid.

onefour1
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by onefour1 »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:56 am
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:37 am So from the statement, "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..." you are implying that Satan was on those other worlds. But the statement doesn't say that. Also you are implying from that statement that these other worlds did not have a different Satan like character or that there was not another way that the people on them could have fallen. That is a big stretch from that statement. My take on it is that a fall has occurred on all other worlds and Satan is complaining that God is punishing him for partaking in what God has allowed to happen on other worlds. Satan probably feels that he is justified in doing what he did since it was done on all other worlds. What is not clear is how people came to fall on other worlds and whether there is a Satan like character on these other worlds who were punished for their role. We don't know how people of other worlds fell but the conversation seems to indicate that Satan did that which was done in other worlds or in other words, brought about the fall. I would take that as if a fall did occur on all other worlds and if he doing that which was done on these other worlds that a fall occurred on them as well. To imply that Satan was on these other worlds and that he was never punished for doing the same thing he always does is reading into the statement much of what is not there.
That makes no sense at all. If you are cursed millions of times before, what is the point of saying "if thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..."?

The implication is clear that in other worlds he did the same thing but was not cursed, because there was no fall.

If you cannot see it, doesn't mean I can't.
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 12:37 am God placed a tree in the Garden and named it the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was not this tree the key to gaining knowledge of good and evil? Was there really another way? If there was, then why place the tree in the garden in the first place and name it such?
already answered it here.
You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 7:19 am You still haven't actually addressed my points and are clearly dodging my questions.

You appear to be claiming that Adam, Eve, Moses, Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Joseph Smith, and countless other servants of God, have all been teaching lies in regards to the fall, and that we should disregard their teachings and listen to you instead.

Is that correct or am I missing something?
Inasmuch as Adam, Eve, Joseph Smith, Nelson or anyone else believe that there was no better way for Adam but to transgress the commandments of God, they are mistaken and are deceived by the same lie that Adam himself was deceived.

This lie must be terminated in the Church before Zion can be redeemed, as I said in the OP.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Baurak Ale wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:16 am I literally cited 1 Corinthians 15 for you in support of that statement. It contradicts nothing if you read it correctly instead of applying your modern understanding of "should" vs "could" to read odd subtleties into the plain verses. I gave you examples from the 1828 edition of the Webster's dictionary to show you how that word was interpreted in Joseph Smith's day. You never did respond to that.
My analysis is supported by the "subtleties" you mentioned, but does not rely on them.
My conclusion is based on a fundamental principle which you seem unable to comprehend: God does not and cannot contradict Himself.

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 2:07 pm You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.
Whether or not Satan was personally on other world's is irrelevant to my conclusions.

Even if some other demons tempted the other Adams, the logic still applies:

If Lucifer knew that those devils were cursed every time they offered forbidden fruit to an Adam (millions of times), why should he be surprised when the same happened to him?

The answer is it didn't.

Those devils were not cursed for a fall because their temptations did not produce a fall, (because other Adams rejected their temptations and were blessed to live in a Millennial state right off the bat), but here on this earth, it did produce a fall, because our Adam chose wrong.

This is why the Savior was born on this world, and not on another. This one fell.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by LDS Watchman »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 7:37 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 7:19 am You still haven't actually addressed my points and are clearly dodging my questions.

You appear to be claiming that Adam, Eve, Moses, Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Joseph Smith, and countless other servants of God, have all been teaching lies in regards to the fall, and that we should disregard their teachings and listen to you instead.

Is that correct or am I missing something?
Inasmuch as Adam, Eve, Joseph Smith, Nelson or anyone else believe that there was no better way for Adam but to transgress the commandments of God, they are mistaken and are deceived by the same lie that Adam himself was deceived.

This lie must be terminated in the Church before Zion can be redeemed, as I said in the OP.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

As for me, I'll stick to what the scriptures and servants of God have to say about the fall over the voice of some random guy on the internet.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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well this has been more fun than watching jeopardy

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:19 pm Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

As for me, I'll stick to what the scriptures and servants of God have to say about the fall over the voice of some random guy on the internet.
It takes considerable twisting of scripture to imagine a God who contradicts himself and wants men to transgress his commandments.

The scriptures say plainly that Adam was disobedient, and that he and Eve were deceived.

How much plainer can it get?

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Obeone
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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EvanLM wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:38 pm well this has been more fun than watching jeopardy
I know! Right?

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by LDS Watchman »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:18 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:19 pm Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

As for me, I'll stick to what the scriptures and servants of God have to say about the fall over the voice of some random guy on the internet.
It takes considerable twisting of scripture to imagine a God who contradicts himself and wants men to transgress his commandments.

The scriptures say plainly that Adam was disobedient, and that he and Eve were deceived.

How much plainer can it get?
It doesn't take any twisting of scripture to believe that the fall was absolutely necessary and that it is an essential element of the plan of salvation, as this is plainly taught in the scriptures.

Read 2 Nephi 2. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Without the fall, Adam and Eve would have been the only two people on this earth forever. They would have been unable to progress. They would have had no children, which means none of us would have been born. They would have had no joy and done no good.

But all things happened according to the wisdom of God, who knows all things.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by onefour1 »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:18 pm
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 2:07 pm You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.
Whether or not Satan was personally on other world's is irrelevant to my conclusions.

Even if some other demons tempted the other Adams, the logic still applies:

If Lucifer knew that those devils were cursed every time they offered forbidden fruit to an Adam (millions of times), why should he be surprised when the same happened to him?

The answer is it didn't.

Those devils were not cursed for a fall because their temptations did not produce a fall, (because other Adams rejected their temptations and were blessed to live in a Millennial state right off the bat), but here on this earth, it did produce a fall, because our Adam chose wrong.

This is why the Savior was born on this world, and not on another. This one fell.
Satan has been known to be a rather arrogant type, for example he would not give up on his failed idea to force all to be good even though it was flawed. So, even if he knew others tempted the people on other worlds and were cursed for it, he may still have stuck to his guns thinking that he is right.

According to the following link, there is evidence that Joseph Smith believed that Jesus Christ was the Savior of all the worlds that he created.
See “Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?”

If those on other worlds did not fall, then a Savior would not be necessary. But, as Joseph Smith seemed to believe, Jesus Christ was the Savior of all his creations.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Durzan »

onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:55 pm
Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:18 pm
onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 2:07 pm You are the one claiming Satan was there in all the other worlds. I don't believe it. He wasn't cursed a million or more times since he was not in those other worlds in my estimation. However, he was already cursed when he was cast out of heaven for his rebellion. Satan did not go to other worlds but was cast out directly to this earth.

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am sure you can see it too. Problem is it is not in the text and you are only seeing what you want to see and not what is in the text.
Whether or not Satan was personally on other world's is irrelevant to my conclusions.

Even if some other demons tempted the other Adams, the logic still applies:

If Lucifer knew that those devils were cursed every time they offered forbidden fruit to an Adam (millions of times), why should he be surprised when the same happened to him?

The answer is it didn't.

Those devils were not cursed for a fall because their temptations did not produce a fall, (because other Adams rejected their temptations and were blessed to live in a Millennial state right off the bat), but here on this earth, it did produce a fall, because our Adam chose wrong.

This is why the Savior was born on this world, and not on another. This one fell.
Satan has been known to be a rather arrogant type, for example he would not give up on his failed idea to force all to be good even though it was flawed. So, even if he knew others tempted the people on other worlds and were cursed for it, he may still have stuck to his guns thinking that he is right.

According to the following link, there is evidence that Joseph Smith believed that Jesus Christ was the Savior of all the worlds that he created.
See “Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?”

If those on other worlds did not fall, then a Savior would not be necessary. But, as Joseph Smith seemed to believe, Jesus Christ was the Savior of all his creations.
Actually this raises an interesting line of thought. How far does a single Fall extend. Only to one world? To multiple? To all Terrestrial worlds? Regardless, assuming that each and every one of the worlds that the Father created for his children to live and experiment in had the opportunity to fall to a telestial state, and that Father keeps creating these worlds... it becomes statistically inevitable that at least one world will enter a fallen state if given enough time. Thus, a Savior would be necessary.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:30 pm It doesn't take any twisting of scripture to believe that the fall was absolutely necessary and that it is an essential element of the plan of salvation, as this is plainly taught in the scriptures.

Read 2 Nephi 2. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Without the fall, Adam and Eve would have been the only two people on this earth forever. They would have been unable to progress. They would have had no children, which means none of us would have been born. They would have had no joy and done no good.

But all things happened according to the wisdom of God, who knows all things.
First of all that passage is one of the correct but incomplete statements in the Book of Mormon that gives opportunity to serious misunderstandings. I would go as far as to say this is one of the imperfections in the Book of Mormon of which Moroni warned us.

But if you understand the nature of God, that He cannot contradict Himself, and if you take this passage in context with the rest of the scriptures, it is sufficiently plain that while exposure to the temptation was necessary, yielding to the temptation is NEVER necessary.

Your problem is that you do not understand the difference between good and evil.

Here is a hint:
That which is according to the commandments of God is good, and that which is contrary to His commandments is evil.

This principle is missing in you, and no one who believes Satan's lie (that there is no better way but to transgress) can receive a terrestrial glory. Therefore all who believe this lie will have to change their minds, or they will go to hell. Mark my word.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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onefour1 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:55 pm If those on other worlds did not fall, then a Savior would not be necessary. But, as Joseph Smith seemed to believe, Jesus Christ was the Savior of all his creations.
Anyone who makes any mistake, however small, cannot be saved on his own merit and needs a savior, no matter which world he lives in: celestial, terrestrial, or telestial --- all need a savior. People in the Millennium will need the Savior just like we do. People on non-fallen worlds need the Savior just like we do.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 10:18 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:30 pm It doesn't take any twisting of scripture to believe that the fall was absolutely necessary and that it is an essential element of the plan of salvation, as this is plainly taught in the scriptures.

Read 2 Nephi 2. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Without the fall, Adam and Eve would have been the only two people on this earth forever. They would have been unable to progress. They would have had no children, which means none of us would have been born. They would have had no joy and done no good.

But all things happened according to the wisdom of God, who knows all things.
First of all that passage is one of the correct but incomplete statements in the Book of Mormon that gives opportunity to serious misunderstandings. I would go as far as to say this is one of the imperfections in the Book of Mormon of which Moroni warned us.

But if you understand the nature of God, that He cannot contradict Himself, and if you take this passage in context with the rest of the scriptures, it is sufficiently plain that while exposure to the temptation was necessary, yielding to the temptation is NEVER necessary.

Your problem is that you do not understand the difference between good and evil.

Here is a hint:
That which is according to the commandments of God is good, and that which is contrary to His commandments is evil.

This principle is missing in you, and no one who believes Satan's lie (that there is no better way but to transgress) can receive a terrestrial glory. Therefore all who believe this lie will have to change their minds, or they will go to hell. Mark my word.
This is just getting silly now. 2 Nephi 2 is as plain as day. You can believe Lehi, Nephi, and Mormon were all off their rockers, or you can accept what is written in these verses as truth.

You're also being quite hypocritical by taking a couple of scriptures and insisting that they mean what you want them to and that everyone who disagrees with you is twisting scripture, while you straight up reject scriptures.

I understand the difference between good and evil quite well, actually. And rejecting what the word of God in the scriptures and by the mouths of his prophets says in favor of your own philosophies is definitely not good.

As for Adam's transgression in partaking the fruit, what eternal irrevocable law was he transgressing against?

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 10:51 pm As for Adam's transgression in partaking the fruit, what eternal irrevocable law was he transgressing against?
The law that says that one must listen to God more than to the devil. That one.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 11:06 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 10:51 pm As for Adam's transgression in partaking the fruit, what eternal irrevocable law was he transgressing against?
The law that says that one must listen to God more than to the devil. That one.
No, that's not it. Try again.

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

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Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 11:06 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 10:51 pm As for Adam's transgression in partaking the fruit, what eternal irrevocable law was he transgressing against?
The law that says that one must listen to God more than to the devil. That one.
Let's look at what the scriptures actually say about this.

This is what God said in this allegorical story of the fall.

16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Notice how God actually gives Adam permission to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil if he chooses, but warns him that he will die if he does.

Now let's look at the account of what led to Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit:

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

Notice how Satan didn't know the mind of God. He didn't realize that he was playing right into God's plan all along.

7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.)
8 And the woman said unto the serpent: We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden;
9 But of the fruit of the tree which thou beholdest in the midst of the garden, God hath said—Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
10 And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die;
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

The lie was that Adam and Eve wouldn't die if they ate the fruit. That's it.

The part about them becoming more like God by having their eyes opened to knowing good and evil by partaking of the fruit was true. Eve recognized that it was in fact desirable to have knowledge of good and evil, which is why she partook of it.

There's also a hint in verse 12 of what the true nature of this fruit was, when it says that Eve "saw that the tree was good for food."

What does this phrase mean?

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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Joan7 »

Obeone wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:18 pm
Atticus wrote: September 7th, 2022, 8:19 pm Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

As for me, I'll stick to what the scriptures and servants of God have to say about the fall over the voice of some random guy on the internet.
It takes considerable twisting of scripture to imagine a God who contradicts himself and wants men to transgress his commandments.

The scriptures say plainly that Adam was disobedient, and that he and Eve were deceived.

How much plainer can it get?
It takes considerable twisting of scripture to discount Joseph Smith, Adam and Eve, and a host of other Prophets, not to mention God. I think you are so fixated on one worldly philosophy that you have wandered far from the straight and narrow path. For you are discounting many scriptures, which God, in His wisdom, preserved, to guide us in these last days.

Remember, Obeone stated Joseph Smith was deceived. I think most on this forum would take issue with that statement.

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