The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:
  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).
End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

4Joshua8
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2369

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by 4Joshua8 »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:16 am The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:
  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).
End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.
The Book of Mormon indicates that partaking of the fruit was necessary, if memory serves, but I believe the book of Mormon is in error on this point.

Also, if God wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, it means God wants us to be disobedient to His commandments. If that were true, everything would unravel.

User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

4Joshua8 wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:30 am
Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:16 am The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:
  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).
End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.
The Book of Mormon indicates that partaking of the fruit was necessary, if memory serves, but I believe the book of Mormon is in error on this point.

Also, if God wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, it means God wants us to be disobedient to His commandments. If that were true, everything would unravel.
You are right, except the Book of Mormon is technically correct (though perhaps imperfect in the delivery on this point). Partaking of the forbidden fruit was unnecessary.

Those passages from Lehi and Eve are interpreted incorrectly out of context with the rest of the scriptures.

But I completely agree with you: if you suppose a God who gives self-contradictory commandments, everything does unravel.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by nightlight »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:16 am The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:
  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).
End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.
Believing there was no other way was not the reason why Adam fell.

Adam fell because of pride.

User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:41 am Believing there was no other way was not the reason why Adam fell.

Adam fell because of pride.
In a way you are right.

Adam fell because he believed a lie that there was no other way that men might be, and because he chose his fallen wife over God, for which he was cursed with death and fall, and his posterity with him.

A lesson in what not to do.

His wife believed a lie that there was no other way for her to open her eyes and to know good and evil.

If they resisted the temptation sufficiently, their eyes would have been opened without transgression, and they would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as God commanded them.

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Alexander »

The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.

2 Nephi 2 effectually declares that there was no other way for man to progress had Adam not condescended; else man would not be granted a probationary time to repent and all would remain the same state as they were.
Last edited by Alexander on September 5th, 2022, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Sarah »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 11:16 am The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:
  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).
End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.
God did provide a way to obey all his commandments. But the way included breaking one of his commands or rules of the Garden.

User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

Sarah wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:16 pm God did provide a way to obey all his commandments. But the way included breaking one of his commands or rules of the Garden.
Transgressing commandments is NOT fulfilling them.
You cannot "obey" God's commandments by "breaking" them. Otherwise God would be a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all.

User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:14 pm The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.

2 Nephi 2 effectually declares that there was no other way for man to progress had Adam not condescended; else man would not be granted a probationary time to repent and all would remain the same state as they were.
If Adam was not tempted, than there would be no progress.
The point the church misses is that he did not have to yield to the temptation, but should have resisted it, in which case his eyes would have been opened without transgression, as God commanded him.

In this case the earth would have began and remained in a Millennial state, without lone and dreary world, the same as millions of worlds have done before this one.

Joan7
captain of 100
Posts: 437
Contact:

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Joan7 »

I disagree with you, for did not God give Abraham a seemingly impossible command. He was told to sacrifice his son. Abraham was willing, then an angel stop him. This commandment was clearly in opposition to the commandment not to kill.
In Nephi's case, he was not stopped from taking a life.
It is my suggestion that we do not understand God's ways enough to suggest that Adam didn't need to partake of the fruit.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Luke »

adam Did Not Comit sin in ating the fruit, for God had Deceed that he should Eat & fall—But in complyance with the Decree he should Die—only he should Die was the saying of the Lord therefore the Lord apointed us to fall & also Redeemed us—for where sin abounded Grace did Much More abound

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1841/3

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Sarah »

Obeone wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:20 pm
Sarah wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:16 pm God did provide a way to obey all his commandments. But the way included breaking one of his commands or rules of the Garden.
Transgressing commandments is NOT fulfilling them.
You cannot "obey" God's commandments by "breaking" them. Otherwise God would be a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all.
Who said they obeyed or fulfilled any commandment? They simply disobeyed one, and by disobeying they were able to obey another commandment.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by marc »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:14 pm The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.....
I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by marc »

Kit-OTW wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:39 pm I disagree with you, for did not God give Abraham a seemingly impossible command. He was told to sacrifice his son. Abraham was willing, then an angel stop him. This commandment was clearly in opposition to the commandment not to kill.
In Nephi's case, he was not stopped from taking a life.
It is my suggestion that we do not understand God's ways enough to suggest that Adam didn't need to partake of the fruit.
There exist ancient traditions outside of scripture cannon that indicate Abraham did indeed kill Isaac. If this is the case, Abraham was completely obedient to kill his son and Isaac's offering would have made a more striking and powerful similitude of Jesus Christ's own offering as the Lamb of God. And did not Father in Heaven send His own Son to die, in effect killing Him? Sometimes it is right to kill, especially if God commands it. I believe whatever God commands is right.

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Alexander »

marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:14 pm The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.....
I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.
Children aren’t born in the millennium.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by nightlight »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:56 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:14 pm The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.....
I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.
Children aren’t born in the millennium.
Source?

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Alexander »

nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:56 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:14 pm The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.....
I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.
Children aren’t born in the millennium.
Source?
Where does it say angels have sex?

Terrestrial Adam and Eve couldn’t bear children until condescending into the temporal Telestial sphere (Book of Mormon 101)

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by marc »

Re: The Millennium

D&C 45:54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Alexander »

marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:12 pm Re: The Millennium

D&C 45:54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
2 Nephi 2
And they would have had no children [had they not condescended]

CuriousThinker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1186

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by CuriousThinker »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm
nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:56 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:49 pm

I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.
Children aren’t born in the millennium.
Source?
Where does it say angels have sex?

Terrestrial Adam and Eve couldn’t bear children until condescending into the temporal Telestial sphere (Book of Mormon 101)
I think Adam and Eve were Celestial in the garden. They were without sin and spoke to God and Jesus.

CuriousThinker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1186

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by CuriousThinker »

In the temple video Satan mentioned to God that he was simply doing what had been done in other worlds. Perhaps they were commanded both but didn't wait till the proper time to be given permission to eat and therefore keep both commands. Instead of asking how to fulfill both they sought their own way.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by nightlight »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm
nightlight wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:56 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:49 pm

I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.
Children aren’t born in the millennium.
Source?
Where does it say angels have sex?

Terrestrial Adam and Eve couldn’t bear children until condescending into the temporal Telestial sphere (Book of Mormon 101)
Source: "trust me bro" jk 😂


At the end of the Millennium, when Satan is let out again, who does he began to deceive?

User avatar
Obeone
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1382

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by Obeone »

Kit-OTW wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:39 pm I disagree with you, for did not God give Abraham a seemingly impossible command. He was told to sacrifice his son. Abraham was willing, then an angel stop him. This commandment was clearly in opposition to the commandment not to kill.
In Nephi's case, he was not stopped from taking a life.
It is my suggestion that we do not understand God's ways enough to suggest that Adam didn't need to partake of the fruit.
God does not contradict Himself.

In case of Abraham you have sequential commandments, with latter canceling the former.

You cannot transgress a commandment that has been revoked.

In case of Adam they were concurrent commandments. Both were simultaneously in force.

God does not, and cannot, give self-contradictory commandments, that is commandments that are simultaneous and contradictory to each other, or He would cease to be God.

Whether Adam would have been commanded to eat of the fruit at a later time: possible. But he definitely did not have to transgress ANY of the commandments of God.

Thus there was a better way for him in the garden, had he listened to the Father more than to his fallen wife and the devil.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by marc »

Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:15 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:12 pm Re: The Millennium

D&C 45:54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
2 Nephi 2
And they would have had no children [had they not condescended]
Ok, so scripturally, we can conclude two things:

1. While in the garden of Eden before their fall, Adam and Even would have no children.
2. During the Millennium, people will multiply and wax strong. They will have children.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

Post by nightlight »

marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:24 pm
Alexander wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:15 pm
marc wrote: September 5th, 2022, 1:12 pm Re: The Millennium

D&C 45:54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
2 Nephi 2
And they would have had no children [had they not condescended]
Ok, so scripturally, we can conclude two things:

1. While in the garden of Eden before their fall, Adam and Even would have no children.
2. During the Millennium, people will multiply and wax strong. They will have children.
Yes.

Also, the state of Adam and Eve would be different than the state of those who are living in a millennium.

Post Reply