God did not revoke any commandment. He simply gives commands. The command to kill Isaac contradicted a former commandment to not kill.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:09 pmYou cannot "break" a commandment that is revoked.Sarah wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:40 pm Well, that's my point, that God is always going to be the villain in all of our lives. He sets us all up to sin and suffer in this life. He even tells us in the D&C that he gives us the impression of one thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean what we think it means. And he does it to get us to think a certain way. He's shown us that many of his commandments are okay to break if he commands otherwise.
His commandments have to do with general behaviors and the motivation or intent behind the behavior. The motivation and intent is more important than the action. So the action of sex for example - something that can easily be abused and used for selfish reasons - he puts bounds on the behavior. Killing, bad in most cases, but okay in other cases. Disobeying a former commandment in order to obey another - disobeying is wrong, but with Adam and Eve, it comes down what the motivation was and whether he approves of it or not. That's how we are judged. Eve and Adam were innocent. We are not. So their circumstance is unique, and we should not put bounds on what God can do to manipulate the circumstances and actions of his children in order that we can all learn from it.
The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
If Enoch, Melchizedek, John the beloved, or anyone who ever was translated was placed in the Garden, they would not have fallen.
Does not necessarily mean they are greater than Adam, but definitely more stable in that point.
Millions of worlds have not fallen. Our earth was probably the first one that did.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
You completely misrepresented 4Joshua8's words. That is not good.EvanLM wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:22 pm hahahahahahahaaha sounds pretty bad. perhaps you are still at milk . . .your choice to get past milk and do the things you need to understand the plan of salvation. We both listen to the same prophets and have the same scriptures and th same HG and the same Savior. How bout you do the right work if you really want to understand.
I would also warn you to be careful what you say or post about God. He never wants us to sin nor did he put us in a state to be evil or not get back to him of fail. When you make such a blasphemous comment then you don't even understand who God is. . .let alone the plan of salvation. It shows that you certainly don't know Jesus Christ or his atonement.
As for milk vs meat. You are offering dung, not meat. Sorry to be blunt.
Anyone who says the fall was the right thing to do for Adam, makes God a liar, which is no God at all.
That false doctrine was originated by the devil himself. It is not "meat" it is dung.
Cheers.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Eve: "It is better for us to pass through sorrow so that we may know good from evil."
You could have known all that without the fall, had you listened to the Father.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
God disagrees with you:
D&C 56:4
4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good;
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Eve even says this before she talks with God, showing her reasons why she ate the fruit. Her motivation is what's important. But I also believe she is speaking the truth. You're assuming there was some other way for us to get all the same lessons.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
I meant in the case of the commandment Thou shalt not kill, the Lord never says "I revoke this commandment.". Abraham couldn't suddenly kill whomever he wanted to.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
There was another way. A better way.
Or what is it that they fell from?
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
He revoked the commandment not to kill in the case of Isaac.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Adam is Michael, he was very great in the premortal world of spirits. He was very faithful to God and didn't want to partake of the forbidden fruit. But only after realizing that Eve would be cast out and he may not be with her thereafter and also remembering that he was commanded to remain with her and to multiply and replenish the earth, only then did Adam see the wisdom in partaking of the fruit and remaining with Eve. I think his decision was wise and continued to obey more commandments than the simple one meant to be broken. I think Enoch, Melchizedek, and John would have made the same wise decision. Why? Because it was meant to be.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:19 pmIf Enoch, Melchizedek, John the beloved, or anyone who ever was translated was placed in the Garden, they would not have fallen.
Does not necessarily mean they are greater than Adam, but definitely more stable in that point.
Millions of worlds have not fallen. Our earth was probably the first one that did.
How do you know that millions of worlds have not fallen? Joseph Smith believed that God the Father laid down his life that he might take it again on another world (see KFD). Did he not believe that God the Father was also the Savior of his mortal world? Show me the evidence that other worlds have not fallen.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
No, it's not false at all. What I said was plainly taught for many years in the early days of the church. It was repeatedly taught in Conference and in the temple by the President of the church and apostles.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:57 pmFalse on every count, as already explained.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 7:47 pm Adam and Eve were resurrected beings before they came to this earth. The fall was necessary for them to become mortal again so they could have children and create mortal bodies for all of mankind.
The fall happens on every earth. It's part of the plan of plan of salvation. There literally is no other way.
It's also fully supported in the scriptures. There's a reason that the scriptures say that the fall was necessary and that Adam and Eve later rejoiced because of it once they understood the plan of salvation.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
There's actually a very good chance that Abraham actually killed Isaac and the angel raised Isaac from the dead. This is strongly implied in the New Testament. And from what I understand, ancient Jewish sages knew of this and softened it up in the Torah.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
you never explained why it is well know in all Christianity that Adam didn't sin, only transgression. Talked about in scripture and temple? If it is a higher law and a commandment as you say, why only a transgression? You're logic is stretching truths beyond what we are taught and what has been revealed.
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Why is it acceptable that God can revoke commandments and be contradictory in this sense, but not okay that he could be contradictory in the garden? I assume you'd say because he's forcing Adam and Eve to disobey. And I say, this situation is unique. When have two other adults been on the earth who were innocent like them, naked and not even realizing it?
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
I already did. The conversation between God and Satan in the endowment suggests that conclusion.onefour1 wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:48 pmAdam is Michael, he was very great in the premortal world of spirits. He was very faithful to God and didn't want to partake of the forbidden fruit. But only after realizing that Eve would be cast out and he may not be with her thereafter and also remembering that he was commanded to remain with her and to multiply and replenish the earth, only then did Adam see the wisdom in partaking of the fruit and remaining with Eve. I think his decision was wise and continued to obey more commandments than the simple one meant to be broken. I think Enoch, Melchizedek, and John would have made the same wise decision. Why? Because it was meant to be.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:19 pmIf Enoch, Melchizedek, John the beloved, or anyone who ever was translated was placed in the Garden, they would not have fallen.
Does not necessarily mean they are greater than Adam, but definitely more stable in that point.
Millions of worlds have not fallen. Our earth was probably the first one that did.
How do you know that millions of worlds have not fallen? Joseph Smith believed that God the Father laid down his life that he might take it again on another world (see KFD). Did he not believe that God the Father was also the Savior of his mortal world? Show me the evidence that other worlds have not fallen.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Already answered that here. Scroll to the definition of necessary in that post. Thanks.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:51 pmNo, it's not false at all. What I said was plainly taught for many years in the early days of the church. It was repeatedly taught in Conference and in the temple by the President of the church and apostles.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:57 pmFalse on every count, as already explained.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 7:47 pm Adam and Eve were resurrected beings before they came to this earth. The fall was necessary for them to become mortal again so they could have children and create mortal bodies for all of mankind.
The fall happens on every earth. It's part of the plan of plan of salvation. There literally is no other way.
It's also fully supported in the scriptures. There's a reason that the scriptures say that the fall was necessary and that Adam and Eve later rejoiced because of it once they understood the plan of salvation.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Yes. The sons and daughters of God are tempted at the end of the millennium (during the war in heaven) and those won over secure a place in the kingdom of darkness to become sons of perdition.nightlight wrote: ↑September 5th, 2022, 1:39 pmSo...you are saying he deceives those who take part in the first resurrection? Resurrected men and women who took part in the atonement, those who are one with the fathersonholyGhost?Alexander wrote: ↑September 5th, 2022, 1:33 pmThe sons and daughters of God and Adam and Eve.nightlight wrote: ↑September 5th, 2022, 1:20 pmSource: "trust me bro" jk
At the end of the Millennium, when Satan is let out again, who does he began to deceive?
Last edited by Alexander on September 6th, 2022, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Or rather they are the same season, but different years. Spring always come back round again.marc wrote: ↑September 5th, 2022, 1:34 pmBoth are Terrestrial, but in different seasons (or dispensations). What makes the Millennium different is Jesus Christ's personal reign. In any case, during Christ's personal reign where the Earth returns to its paradisaical state, people will multiply. Children will be born and they will have children.Alexander wrote: ↑September 5th, 2022, 1:29 pmThe millennium is the Garden of Eden
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Sin requires 3 things to be present simultaneously:TheDuke wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:02 pm you never explained why it is well know in all Christianity that Adam didn't sin, only transgression. Talked about in scripture and temple? If it is a higher law and a commandment as you say, why only a transgression? You're logic is stretching truths beyond what we are taught and what has been revealed.
- Knowledge of good and evil
- Knowing the commandments of God, and
- Intentionally transgressing the commandments.
In case of Adam (1) was missing, because his eyes were opened only after he partook of the forbidden fruit.
And though it was not a sin, it was a grave and deadly transgression. Not just a meaningless technicality, but a fundamental choice to follow a fallen wife (and the devil in that point), rather than God.
There is no more important subject than this. And he chose wrong, for which he and his posterity were cursed.
Last edited by Obeone on September 6th, 2022, 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
What exactly are you referring to or point me to the exact place where you have explained this in detail in a previous post.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:09 pmI already did. The conversation between God and Satan in the endowment suggests that conclusion.onefour1 wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:48 pmAdam is Michael, he was very great in the premortal world of spirits. He was very faithful to God and didn't want to partake of the forbidden fruit. But only after realizing that Eve would be cast out and he may not be with her thereafter and also remembering that he was commanded to remain with her and to multiply and replenish the earth, only then did Adam see the wisdom in partaking of the fruit and remaining with Eve. I think his decision was wise and continued to obey more commandments than the simple one meant to be broken. I think Enoch, Melchizedek, and John would have made the same wise decision. Why? Because it was meant to be.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 10:19 pmIf Enoch, Melchizedek, John the beloved, or anyone who ever was translated was placed in the Garden, they would not have fallen.
Does not necessarily mean they are greater than Adam, but definitely more stable in that point.
Millions of worlds have not fallen. Our earth was probably the first one that did.
How do you know that millions of worlds have not fallen? Joseph Smith believed that God the Father laid down his life that he might take it again on another world (see KFD). Did he not believe that God the Father was also the Savior of his mortal world? Show me the evidence that other worlds have not fallen.
Last edited by onefour1 on September 6th, 2022, 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
Satan claimed that he was doing that which was done in other worlds.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
What he said is actually fully supported by the scriptures.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmThat contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
(Moses 6:59)
The scriptures clearly say otherwise.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmInstead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.
Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
On what grounds do you make the claim that living prophets and apostles believing and teaching precisely what the scriptures say is why Zion has not yet been redeemed?Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm God does not, and cannot contradict Himself.
The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.
This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years.
Do you include Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Moses, and Joseph Smith among these supposed prophets who believe and perpetuate this supposed "lie?"
Again based on what? The scriptures say the exact opposite. See 2 Nephi 2 for example.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmIf the fall was "necessary" than the atonement was unnecessary.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall
While this isn't the correct definition of necessary, the fall of Adam and Eve meets all of your criteria for being necessary.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.
The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.
So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.
To God "necessary" means:That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.
- God commanded it, and
- It is your duty to do it, and
- You will be blessed if you do it, and
- You will be cursed if you do not.
Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
How does that prove "blood is required to produce physical bodies"? It simply says that fallen bodies are born of blood. It does not mean that all physical bodies have to be fallen.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:48 pmWhat he said is actually fully supported by the scriptures.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmThat contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
(Moses 6:59)
Already answered all that here.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:48 pmThe scriptures clearly say otherwise.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmInstead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.
Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
On what grounds do you make the claim that living prophets and apostles believing and teaching precisely what the scriptures say is why Zion has not yet been redeemed?Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm God does not, and cannot contradict Himself.
The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.
This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years.
Do you include Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Moses, and Joseph Smith among these supposed prophets who believe and perpetuate this supposed "lie?"
Again based on what? The scriptures say the exact opposite. See 2 Nephi 2 for example.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmIf the fall was "necessary" than the atonement was unnecessary.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall
Really? God commanded them NOT to fall. Did you miss that?Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:48 pmWhile this isn't the correct definition of necessary, the fall of Adam and Eve meets all of your criteria for being necessary.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.
The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.
So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.
To God "necessary" means:That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.
- God commanded it, and
- It is your duty to do it, and
- You will be blessed if you do it, and
- You will be cursed if you do not.
Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression.
Last edited by Obeone on September 7th, 2022, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion
No, you didn't previously answer the points I made. Please actually address them.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:57 pmAlready answered all that here.Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:48 pmWhat he said is actually fully supported by the scriptures.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmThat contradicts the scriptures, and has zero support in the scriptures.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
(Moses 6:59)
The scriptures clearly say otherwise.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmInstead of blood there is a different liquid that flows in the veins of resurrected beings.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.
Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of procreation, had they resisted the temptation as God commanded them.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
On what grounds do you make the claim that living prophets and apostles believing and teaching precisely what the scriptures say is why Zion has not yet been redeemed?Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm God does not, and cannot contradict Himself.
The idea that men could not be without a fall was a lie originated by Satan. The same lie that many living prophets and apostles in this Church believe to this day.
This is part of the reason why Zion has not been redeemed for these 200 years already. But this will change withing 8 years.
Do you include Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, Moses, and Joseph Smith among these supposed prophets who believe and perpetuate this supposed "lie?"
Again based on what? The scriptures say the exact opposite. See 2 Nephi 2 for example.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pmIf the fall was "necessary" than the atonement was unnecessary.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 8:58 am The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall
Really? God commanded them NOT to fall. Did you miss that?Atticus wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 11:48 pmWhile this isn't the correct definition of necessary, the fall of Adam and Eve meets all of your criteria for being necessary.Obeone wrote: ↑September 6th, 2022, 9:20 pm If Adam and Eve did their duty and what they were supposed to do, then there was no fall, and atonement is not needed to redeem them from it.
The word necessary is a tricky one, and Satan uses this subtlety.
So that we do not give Satan a chance to confuse us, and so that we speak the same language I will define the word "necessary" as God defines it.
To God "necessary" means:That is what necessary means to God. This is how I use the word.
- God commanded it, and
- It is your duty to do it, and
- You will be blessed if you do it, and
- You will be cursed if you do not.
Under this definition, the fall of Adam was UNNECESSARY by definition, and so also every sin and transgression is UNNECESSARY by definition, or it is not a transgression.
Where did God command them not fall? The allegorical account in Moses and Abraham we have has God telling them not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and warning them that they would die if they did. Nowhere does it say that God commanded them NOT to fall.
In other threads you brought up the temple endowment, so I'm assuming that you believe what is taught there is truth. The temple endowment clearly teaches that Adam was one of the Gods who created the earth and that he came here for the purpose of falling. Which is consistent with what is taught in the scriptures.