What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Pazooka
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What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Pazooka »

Doing a deep dive into that priesthood that is greater than Abraham’s patriarchal priesthood - - the fulness of the order of Melchizedek. In testing the hypothesis that this type of priesthood is concomitant with the changing of one’s body to a terrestrial/translated condition, I ran across the story of Nephi son of Helaman. It seems to me to be the perfect pattern of how this works:

An audible voice declared to Nephi, “Blessed art thou, Nephi...I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God (contract language). Behold, I declare unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people... (Helaman 10:4-7)


As he went about declaring the word of the Lord to the people, they tried to hurt him and lock him up in prison but it says ”the power of God was with him, and they could not take him to cast him into prison, for he was taken by the Spirit and conveyed away out of the midst of them....thus he did go forth in the Spirit, from multitude to multitude...”

Doesn’t that sound like something a translated being can do? Do we know of any mere mortal that can do that?

He seals the heavens to create a famine, that brought the people to repentance, then he unsealed the heavens so that it would rain. He baptized, prophesied, preached and it says he was also “showing signs and wonders, working miracles among the people.

Then, one day, he put his son Nephi in charge of the sacred records and “departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth.” (3 Nephi 1:3)

Did he get translated at the end of his life? Or had he been translated from the moment God gave him power over the people and the elements, to seal on earth and have his seal honored in heaven?

This story is not very different from the story of Moses and Melchizedek and Elijah.

My biggest question is why Joseph Smith, if he had the power to seal on earth, did not have power over the elements or any other manifestation of this power. Why did he not receive a change in body? Did he, like Peter, hope for a better resurrection after suffering the torment of death? Did he not have a fulness of the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek? Did he only ever attain to the patriarchal priesthood? Was he able to ratify marriages only, and not seal the individuals up unto eternal life?
Last edited by Pazooka on September 4th, 2022, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Mamabear »

Pazooka wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:03 pm Doing a deep dive into that priesthood that is greater than Abraham’s patriarchal priesthood - - the fulness of the order of Melchizedek. In testing the hypothesis that this type of priesthood is concomitant with the changing of one’s body to a terrestrial/translated condition, I ran across the story of Nephi son of Helaman. It seems to me to be the perfect pattern of how this works:

An audible voice declared to Nephi, “Blessed art thou, Nephi...I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee might in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God (contract language). Behold, I declare unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people... (Helaman 10:4-7)


As he went about declaring the word of the Lord to the people, they tried to hurt him and lock him up in prison but it says ”the power of God was with him, and they could not take him to cast him into prison, for he was taken by the Spirit and conveyed away out of the midst of them....thus he did go forth in the Spirit, from multitude to multitude...”

Doesn’t that sound like something a translated being can do? Do we know of any mere mortal that can do that?

He seals the heavens to create a famine, that brought the people to repentance, then he unsealed the heavens so that it would rain. He baptized, prophesied, preached and it says he was also “showing signs and wonders, working miracles among the people.

Then, one day, he put his son Nephi in charge of the sacred records and “departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth.” (3 Nephi 1:3)

Did he get translated at the end of his life? Or had he been translated from the moment God gave him power over the people and the elements, to seal on earth and have his seal honored in heaven?

This story is not very different from the story of Moses and Melchizedek and Elijah.

My biggest question is why Joseph Smith, if he had the power to seal on earth, did not have power over the elements or any other manifestation of this power. Why did he not receive a change in body? Did he, like Peter, hope for a better resurrection after suffering the torment of death? Did he not have a fulness of the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek? Did he only ever attain to the patriarchal priesthood? Was he able to ratify marriages only, and not seal the individuals up unto eternal life?
Good points. The sealing power is nothing like we believe it is today.
Notice Nephi didn’t seal people with his sealing power. ;)

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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In this same vein, by what power were Enoch, Moses, Elijah, etc translated before the Atonement of Jesus Christ? If translation is a terrestrial order (the same condition that will exist during the Millennium) and Jesus’ work was to reverse the effects of the Fall - how were people brought back up from a telestial to a terrestrial condition before Jesus had performed that service?

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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I don't see any necessary connection between begin given a gift of power over the elements, a limited form of sealing power, being translated, and having power to seal up beings to salvation or exaltation. Seems they are all different things. They may be manifest together or not.

Also, I don't see much about Melchizedek and the sealing power? Not that he didn't (doesn't) have it but where is it discussed? and Enoch's seems like Elijah's and Nephi's here, to bind the earthly elements. Are there any examples of these later prophets sealing anyone up to salvation or exaltation? or damnation for that matter?

Having the power to get out of prison, make the walls fall, missing arrows, etc... doesn't seem to mandate translation. What do we have about humans being translated permanently, not for a few minutes in dreams or visions or a couple of days in the desert or unconscious? Moses, Elijah, others? Not many anyway.

I think there are several different effects here in play. I am not sure they are at all the same. 1) One is when you are in the presence of deity, you are in another dimension or space or realm. this is not possible to do when walking around buildings or prisons or teaching people in this telestial sphere. You are alone with god, relative to this realm, like Joseph in grove. It seems more accurately termed "quickened" but is often termed translated. 2) Then there is Moses, Elijah and other that don't taste death, they are some how changed to another form that results in death/resurrection in a permanent form. 3) according to Skousen et all, It seems some in the past simply were prepped for (space) travel to Zion to join Enoch on some other world, not sure if this is called translation but these were taken from the earth to Zion or 10 tribes to continue life in some form or another, presumably a better state of telestial. 4) Some seem held . If to come back and do something like 3 Nephite or John in some interim state, called translated, but seemingly means they are given some power over aging and death, but it is temporary and may or may not be better than just dying and being resurrected (see Jesus' discussion on this with John vs. Peter).

These states may or may not have map to Adam in garden living forever innocent, Adam living 1000 years on the earth outside the garden, us living 70 years, etc...

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Luke
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Luke »

I don’t think the sealing power given to Nephi here is even related to Priesthood.

Anyone can seal the elements through faith. “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed…”

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Luke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 8:43 am I don’t think the sealing power given to Nephi here is even related to Priesthood.

Anyone can seal the elements through faith. “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed…”
Here’s where JS’s fascination with 2 Peter 1 comes in because he mentions adding to one’s faith virtue (which is power) - this is the famous calling and election made sure chapter.

What happened on the Mount of Transfiguration, that was only alluded to in D&C 63:21? Peter had his calling and election made sure - this much we can surmise. But what happened to their bodies and who was transfigured? That is what we have left to be told and never were.

We keep talking about the “endowment of power” that’s meant to take place in the temple and think that this power is the ability to transfer some type of fiat authority to other men. The fiat is worthless. Peter was endowed with actual power.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 4th, 2022, 10:19 pm I don't see any necessary connection between begin given a gift of power over the elements, a limited form of sealing power, being translated, and having power to seal up beings to salvation or exaltation. Seems they are all different things. They may be manifest together or not.
The connection is made in JST Genesis 14
And men, having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven. And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order. (Vs 32,33)

...every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the sense, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course; to put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers, etc (vs 30,31)

And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken

That is an unmistakeable demonstration of sealing authority by every definition of the word.
Also, I don't see much about Melchizedek and the sealing power? Not that he didn't (doesn't) have it but where is it discussed?
I would suggest doing a topic study on Melchizedek. Maybe you just weren’t looking for it before and didn’t notice it.
...and Enoch's seems like Elijah's and Nephi's here, to bind the earthly elements. Are there any examples of these later prophets sealing anyone up to salvation or exaltation? or damnation for that matter?
Elijah exhibited the sealing power unto salvation in 1 Kings 17 when he brought the widow’s son back to life, prior to the Atonement of JC.
Those are good questions that you should pursue.
Having the power to get out of prison, make the walls fall, missing arrows, etc... doesn't seem to mandate translation. What do we have about humans being translated permanently, not for a few minutes in dreams or visions or a couple of days in the desert or unconscious? Moses, Elijah, others? Not many anyway.
Having the power to get from place to place by the power of the Spirit, like Nephi did, does imply translation.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Pazooka wrote: September 5th, 2022, 9:37 am
Luke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 8:43 am I don’t think the sealing power given to Nephi here is even related to Priesthood.

Anyone can seal the elements through faith. “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed…”
Here’s where JS’s fascination with 2 Peter 1 comes in because he mentions adding to one’s faith virtue (which is power) - this is the famous calling and election made sure chapter.

What happened on the Mount of Transfiguration, that was only alluded to in D&C 63:21? Peter had his calling and election made sure - this much we can surmise. But what happened to their bodies and who was transfigured? That is what we have left to be told and never were.

We keep talking about the “endowment of power” that’s meant to take place in the temple and think that this power is the ability to transfer some type of fiat authority to other men. The fiat is worthless. Peter was endowed with actual power.
There is something to what Jesus commented to his disciples in Matthew 16:28 that
There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

“Some” means more than just John, whom the Christian world considers to have died around A.D. 100, although they do acknowledge him the longest surviving original apostle. I’m starting to suspect that Peter and James may also have been transfigured. The scriptural record is just muddled enough concerning their deaths that the true story may have been lost. Perhaps the difference between John and Peter is that John tarried on the earth while Peter was taken up to the city of Enoch.

Matthew 16 describes the covenant, similar to the exchange between God and Nephi son of Helaman, between God and Peter promising him the sealing power. 6 or 8 days later, he was taken up into the Mount with Jesus, James and John, where he probably actually received it when his body was changed to an incorruptible nature on the Mount - - that same incorruptible, divine nature he talks about in 2 Peter 1.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Mamabear »

Pazooka wrote: September 5th, 2022, 2:40 pm
Pazooka wrote: September 5th, 2022, 9:37 am
Luke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 8:43 am I don’t think the sealing power given to Nephi here is even related to Priesthood.

Anyone can seal the elements through faith. “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed…”
Here’s where JS’s fascination with 2 Peter 1 comes in because he mentions adding to one’s faith virtue (which is power) - this is the famous calling and election made sure chapter.

What happened on the Mount of Transfiguration, that was only alluded to in D&C 63:21? Peter had his calling and election made sure - this much we can surmise. But what happened to their bodies and who was transfigured? That is what we have left to be told and never were.

We keep talking about the “endowment of power” that’s meant to take place in the temple and think that this power is the ability to transfer some type of fiat authority to other men. The fiat is worthless. Peter was endowed with actual power.
There is something to what Jesus commented to his disciples in Matthew 16:28 that
There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

“Some” means more than just John, whom the Christian world considers to have died around A.D. 100, although they do acknowledge him the longest surviving original apostle. I’m starting to suspect that Peter and James may also have been transfigured. The scriptural record is just muddled enough concerning their deaths that the true story may have been lost. Perhaps the difference between John and Peter is that John tarried on the earth while Peter was taken up to the city of Enoch.

Matthew 16 describes the covenant, similar to the exchange between God and Nephi son of Helaman, between God and Peter promising him the sealing power. 6 or 8 days later, he was taken up into the Mount with Jesus, James and John, where he probably actually received it when his body was changed to an incorruptible nature on the Mount - - that same incorruptible, divine nature he talks about in 2 Peter 1.
Funny….I just read that scripture this week and thought the same thing about maybe more apostles being translated.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Pazooka: have you ever been "quickened" or "translated" If you have you will know the answer to your questions. And as I have stated JS quote talks of being "translated" and leaving this earth. After the HG left the 70 at the transfiguration (of Jesus) they were normal mortal beings again, no one ever mentions anything of the 70 being unique after that, even Peter and the apostles (other than John) all died, even Jesus stated such when he discussed why Peter should be jealous of John (as a question).

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 4:19 pm Pazooka: have you ever been "quickened" or "translated" If you have you will know the answer to your questions. And as I have stated JS quote talks of being "translated" and leaving this earth. After the HG left the 70 at the transfiguration (of Jesus) they were normal mortal beings again, no one ever mentions anything of the 70 being unique after that, even Peter and the apostles (other than John) all died, even Jesus stated such when he discussed why Peter should be jealous of John (as a question).
It would be helpful to both of us, I think, if you would refer to scripture to support what you’re taking for granted as fact.

Regarding Peter and John, the Lord said to John “because thou desires this (to live and bring souls unto God) thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory”. This may only mean a difference of John staying on the earth among men while the Lord indicated He would grant Peter his wish that he could “speedily come unto me in my kingdom” not such different language than was used for the people of Enoch and Melchizedek. (D&C 7)

There’s also the less understood passage that follows: “And I will make thee (Peter) to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

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TheDuke
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Peter was crucified. You can find your own answer to how each (but John) apostle died, but none lived on in any translated state. All acted like men, most in prison w/o miraculous release. All argued their own understandings and worked out a concensus.

I used you're quote from JS, no need to repeat it, you provided it already.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 7:11 pm Peter was crucified. You can find your own answer to how each (but John) apostle died, but none lived on in any translated state. All acted like men, most in prison w/o miraculous release. All argued their own understandings and worked out a concensus.

I used you're quote from JS, no need to repeat it, you provided it already.
Thanks for setting me straight. I’ll just take your word for it and not look into it any further. We obviously have been told everything there is to know about the Mount of Transfiguration, no matter what D&C 63 says.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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not sure where that came from, anyway, it was you starting this thread posing questions based on logical extension to several disparate facts, not all in canon, as I recall. Which is ok, but what I'm pointing out is what JS said, and what bible scholars say about the wording and messages as well as what JS said that sticks with LDS doctrine today (mostly) and what I have personally experienced.

I'm not sure, at all however, how you can see or imagine all the apostles and 70 were permanently translated at pentecost? given how things panned out (or didn't) for them over the remainder of their lives.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 7:19 pm not sure where that came from, anyway, it was you starting this thread posing questions based on logical extension to several disparate facts, not all in canon, as I recall. Which is ok, but what I'm pointing out is what JS said, and what bible scholars say about the wording and messages as well as what JS said that sticks with LDS doctrine today (mostly) and what I have personally experienced.

I'm not sure, at all however, how you can see or imagine all the apostles and 70 were permanently translated at pentecost? given how things panned out (or didn't) for them over the remainder of their lives.
No one said all the apostles and 70 were translated at Pentecost. Don’t know where you got that from. I was referring to the Mount of Transfiguration.

That’s the thing, though. You argue that so and so said this or that but you never bother to directly quote. If you did, you might find that the wording doesn’t actually say what you remember it to have said. That’s one of the reasons I find it hard to have a fruitful discussion with you, an otherwise fine upstanding citizen.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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It was from a few posts up. But the bible specifically says only Jesus was transfigured before them nothing says anything happened to the others. BTW they had normal lives there after, and Peter even denied Jesus. Not sure still where you are going with your logic about translation. I'm also not sure what scriptures you are referring to, seems most of the meat you have is non-canon, non-scriptural accounts and quotes.

But, I don't see any reason to continue this as you have some vague idea about what it means to be "translated" and run all the disparate statements together. I tried to list separate understandings and/or experiences to talk about each but you want to run them together and somehow feel once-translated it is a permanent thing but some live forever and some die natural causes. I guess I'm just confused.

I take the "quickening" very seriously, it is personally very important to me. I'm not interested in learning from extensions of logic and w/o spiritual manifestations, though a discussion of each event (or type of event) seemed useful.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 8:33 pm It was from a few posts up. But the bible specifically says only Jesus was transfigured before them nothing says anything happened to the others. BTW they had normal lives there after, and Peter even denied Jesus. Not sure still where you are going with your logic about translation. I'm also not sure what scriptures you are referring to, seems most of the meat you have is non-canon, non-scriptural accounts and quotes.

But, I don't see any reason to continue this as you have some vague idea about what it means to be "translated" and run all the disparate statements together. I tried to list separate understandings and/or experiences to talk about each but you want to run them together and somehow feel once-translated it is a permanent thing but some live forever and some die natural causes. I guess I'm just confused.

I take the "quickening" very seriously, it is personally very important to me. I'm not interested in learning from extensions of logic and w/o spiritual manifestations, though a discussion of each event (or type of event) seemed useful.
You’re assuming that all that is written in the gospels about the MoT is all there is to know when D&C 63 reveals that “the earth shall be transfigured, even according to the pattern which was shown unto mine apostles upon the mount; of which account the fulness ye have not yet received.”

There are details in the gospels that hint at there being more to the story: the cloud overshadowing them, the description that they were “heavy with sleep” (does that remind you of a part of the endowment???). Jesus touching them and telling them to “Arise.” The fact that immediately after the experience they were discussing “the rising from the dead.”

Peter denying an association with Jesus is neither here nor there. You can have your calling and election made sure and you can be translated and still be a doof from time to time. Jesus, in His graciousness also gave Peter 3 opportunities to affirm his devotion to Him in His presence, after that incident - - so maybe the score is even (“Peter, lovest thou me? Times 3)

In commenting on 2 Peter 1:10–11, the Prophet said, “There are two sins against which this power [calling and election] does not secure or prevail; they are the sin against the Holy Ghost and shedding of innocent Blood, which is equivalent to crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting him to an open shame. Those who do these it is impossible to renew unto repentance, for they are delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemptions.”[25] About a month after making this statement (April 1844), Joseph clarified what it means to sin against the Holy Ghost: “All sin shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it. He has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens are open to him. . . . He has the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of life.”[26]

There is a pattern forming (for me, at least) that I just get all excited to share. Take it for what it’s worth. If you find something wrong with it - - reason out of the scriptures, for pity’s sake, and not off the top of your head if you want anyone to take you seriously. I won’t feel obliged to respond next time if you don’t show that courtesy.

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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Pazooka: please don't try and tell me that I am thinking about this off the top of my head. I said very, very clearly that this is a personal topic to me. And one that I am intimately familiar with, hence, my asking if you have any intimate experiences with this or just "hints" as you say and study?

The entire concept of the earth being translated is, well like the same verses that say rocks groan and have souls, metaphorical and spiritual, not physical. Rocks and earth (physical elements) are not souls or spirits in the same sense as man and god. There is much in here written as "mystical" and it takes more than just paper study and "hints" to sort it out. Good luck with your quest.

BTW the OP talks about sealing power, again I will say there does not seem to me, via any scriptures, to tie sealing power to requiring any form of "quickening" or "translation". Power of the PH (in this sphere) has never been linked to a changed or transformed body. Now a translated being, surely seems a candidate but we don't see that for Enoch, have no record of Melchizedek, none for Elijah and surely none for JS, or Bro of J for that matter).

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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TheDuke wrote: September 5th, 2022, 10:04 pm Pazooka: please don't try and tell me that I am thinking about this off the top of my head. I said very, very clearly that this is a personal topic to me. And one that I am intimately familiar with, hence, my asking if you have any intimate experiences with this or just "hints" as you say and study?

The entire concept of the earth being translated is, well like the same verses that say rocks groan and have souls, metaphorical and spiritual, not physical. Rocks and earth (physical elements) are not souls or spirits in the same sense as man and god. There is much in here written as "mystical" and it takes more than just paper study and "hints" to sort it out. Good luck with your quest.

BTW the OP talks about sealing power, again I will say there does not seem to me, via any scriptures, to tie sealing power to requiring any form of "quickening" or "translation". Power of the PH (in this sphere) has never been linked to a changed or transformed body. Now a translated being, surely seems a candidate but we don't see that for Enoch, have no record of Melchizedek, none for Elijah and surely none for JS, or Bro of J for that matter).
I am saying that you do not support any of your ideas by referencing scripture or even a quotation.

Is it the “earth” that’s translated (acc to D&C 63) or those *on* the earth? Unclear.

Are you saying that Enoch wasn’t translated? By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5) Or do you mean to say that he didn’t have the sealing power? Behold my Spirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore walk with me. (Moses 6:34)

INTERESTING story about James and John. Right after the MoT experience they were accompanying Jesus to Samaria, where the people were inhospitable toward them because they ascertained that they were on their way to Jerusalem instead of worshiping at their temple, there in Gerezim, lending it legitimacy. James and John reacted by asking Jesus, “Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?” But Jesus forbade them from doing it?

Why would they think they had power to command fire from heaven? Why was Elijah on their mind?

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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

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I never said Enoch wasn't translated......... but after he was translated he was "fled". I also never said he didn't have the sealing power, he did. My point is they are 2 different and distinct (possibly 3 here) different things. When walking or speaking with deity that is temporary (quickened) for a visit not a dream of course. Translated to go to another planet or not taste death is something else all together. I cannot pretend to understand what happened to Enoch and Zion that fled? We just haven't been told. Just they fled!

Sealing power comes irregardless of human state, see Elijah.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Pazooka »

TheDuke wrote: September 6th, 2022, 9:41 am I never said Enoch wasn't translated......... but after he was translated he was "fled". I also never said he didn't have the sealing power, he did. My point is they are 2 different and distinct (possibly 3 here) different things. When walking or speaking with deity that is temporary (quickened) for a visit not a dream of course. Translated to go to another planet or not taste death is something else all together. I cannot pretend to understand what happened to Enoch and Zion that fled? We just haven't been told. Just they fled!

Sealing power comes irregardless of human state, see Elijah.
1 Kings 18:11-12
11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here.
12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the Lord shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the Lord from my youth.


There are things to suggest he was translated

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Pazooka »

TheDuke wrote: September 6th, 2022, 9:41 am I never said Enoch wasn't translated......... but after he was translated he was "fled". I also never said he didn't have the sealing power, he did. My point is they are 2 different and distinct (possibly 3 here) different things. When walking or speaking with deity that is temporary (quickened) for a visit not a dream of course. Translated to go to another planet or not taste death is something else all together. I cannot pretend to understand what happened to Enoch and Zion that fled? We just haven't been told. Just they fled!

Sealing power comes irregardless of human state, see Elijah.
And then there’s the time Elijah slew something like 450 prophets of Baal with the sword then, immediately after, girded up his loins and outran Ahab’s chariot with a little help from “the power of God.”

1 Kings 18:46

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TheDuke
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by TheDuke »

translated because he was hid? It says he hid in rock and a bird fed him? translated? Stretching scriptures. but I guess it no longer matters to me. I tried to share what I know with you Pazooka but you are stretching scriptures to meet an internal understanding vs. learning humbly and letting the spirit guide. Good luck with your translation process.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Pazooka »

TheDuke wrote: September 6th, 2022, 8:23 pm translated because he was hid? It says he hid in rock and a bird fed him? translated? Stretching scriptures. but I guess it no longer matters to me. I tried to share what I know with you Pazooka but you are stretching scriptures to meet an internal understanding vs. learning humbly and letting the spirit guide. Good luck with your translation process.
Thanks. I’m going to go watch “The Quiet Man” now.

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Pazooka
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Re: What the story of Nephi indicates about sealing power

Post by Pazooka »

This kind of blew my mind - - the idea that Elijah was the same person as Phinehas from the Exodus - - translated way back then and continuing his work as a terrestrial being among the Israelites.
According to Judges 20:28, Phinehas, grandson of Aaron, was still serving as high priest, though the events recorded in that chapter occurred many generations after the time his father Eleazar was made high priest in the time of Moses (Numbers 20:28; Deuteronomy 10:6). A second-century A.D. Aramaic translation of Numbers 25:12-13 has the Lord saying that Phinehas would live forever to proclaim redemption in the last days (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Numbers 25:12-13). Midrash Rabbah Numbers 21:3, written in the latter part of the fourth or the beginning of the fifth century A.D., declares that Phinehas was “still alive,” something also affirmed in Sifrei Numbers 131. The Biblical Antiquities (Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum), composed in the first century A.D. and mistakenly attributed to the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, has this to say about Phinehas:

And in the time Phinehas laid himself down to die, and the Lord said to him, Behold you have passed the 120 years that have been established for every man. And now rise up and go from here and dwell in Danaben on the mountain and dwell there many years. And I will command my eagle, and he will nourish you there, and you will shut up the heaven then, and by your mouth it will be opened up. And afterward you will be lifted up into the place where those who were before you were lifted up, and you will be there until I remember the world. Then I will make you all come, and you will taste what is death.” (Biblical Antiquities 48:1) [40]
Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Exodus 6:18 identifies Phinehas with the prophet Elijah, who was also translated. Indeed, each is said to have been “zealous” or “jealous” (the same Hebrew word is used in the relevant passages) for the Lord (Numbers 25:11; 1 Kings 19:10, 14). The Pseudo-Philo passage has God sending an eagle to feed Phinehas, just as he later sent ravens to feed Elijah (1 Kings 17:4-6), and indicates that Phinehas has power to shut up and open the heavens, as did Elijah (1 Kings 17:1; 1 Kings 18:41-45). Other prophets who were translated also had the power to control the elements. These include Enoch (Moses 7:13), Melchizedek (JST Genesis 14:26-36), and Nephi, son of Helaman (Helaman 10:4-10; 11:1-18).
https://latterdaysaintmag.com/article-1-200/

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