Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

[Reluctant Watchman]

How can people not see that the Lord taught us not to blindly trust anyone, even PSRs (JST Mark 9), and yet Nelson says “you can trust us completely”?

This is what Joseph taught:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

And the church even knows the interpretation, yet they can’t bring themselves to call out the “Eye”, their very own PSRs. From the church header: “ Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.”

They even had the audacity to use those same words: “lead one astray”, yet not include the “eye.”

“We cannot lead you astray”… spoken from Brigham on for 170+ years… making themselves lesser gods.

“The greatest form of a lie is the omission.” —George Orwell

[Say what?]

The problem with medical prescriptions is that usually the cost of “life saving” drugs can be too costly to the patient. Causing a financial burden with a lifetime of prescription usage.
Who prescribes - do nothing, these days? There is so much information on cleansing, nutritional healing through herbs and mild food. You can heal and still afford it.
I believe that the Savior shakes his head, to put it mildly, when he sees how costly the health care is. He healed people for free, yet the medical system dupes us into believing that we can only live by them and yet pay their high fees.
It’s ironic that supposed healers get so much money and puff themselves up with pride because of it. I would rather die trying to help myself then die with a false hope that the medical system could save me by chopping off my legs because of diabetes, or take me out by an expensive surgery, or having my hair fall out with chemo therapy and then dying after all that suffering and leaving my family with a financial burden of high medical bills and unhelpful expenses.
No “do nothing” is not the answer but the medical system and pharma is not either.
See what all their years of schooling has taught them. Only in rare circumstances do I see them as helpful. I believe our savior wants us to learn about our own bodies and how to heal them through his creations, as he has intended them to be used. Our faith should be in our creator not man. You would think that the brethren would place more faith in that.
Health and knowledge will eventually be free to everyone. So eventually the medical profession will have to step down from their high horse and hang up their white coats.

[Silver Pie]

This is woorth printing out and reading from time to time.

The problem with medical prescriptions is that usually the cost of “life saving” drugs can be too costly the patient. Causing a financial burden with a lifetime of prescription usage.
Who prescribes do nothing these days? There is so much information on cleansing, nutritional healing through herbs and mild food. You can heal and still afford it.
I believe that the Savior shakes his head, to put it mildly, when he sees how costly the health care is. He healed people for free, yet the medical system dupes us into believing that we can only live by them and yet pay their high fees.
It’s ironic that supposed healers get so much money and puff themselves up with pride because of it. I would rather die trying to help myself then die with a false hope that the medical system could save me by chopping off my legs because of diabetes, or take me out by an expensive surgery, or having my hair fall out with chemo therapy and then dying after all that suffering and leaving my family with a financial burden of high medical bills and unhelpful expenses.
No “do nothing” is not the answer but the medical system and pharma is not either.
See what all their years of schooling has taught them. Only in rare circumstances do I see them as helpful. I believe our savior wants us to learn about our own bodies and how to heal them through his creations, as he has intended them to be used. Our faith should be in our creator not man. You would think that the brethren would place more faith in that.
Health and knowledge will eventually be free to everyone. So eventually the medical profession will have to step down from their high horse and hang up their white coats.

[Obeone]

The prophet and Q15 will never lead the Church astray. God will not allow it. The context here is eternal salvation. And it is true.
As for lesser principles, the Lord wants us to follow His Spirit more than the prophet, as I explained here.

No prophet outranks God Himself. Therefore the Spirit outranks Q15 every time.

[FrankOne]

The prophet and Q15 will never lead the Church astray. God will not allow it. The context here is eternal salvation. And it is true.
As for lesser principles, the Lord wants us to follow His Spirit more than the prophet, as I explained here.

No prophet outranks God Himself. Therefore the Spirit outranks Q15 every time.

the only source for the doctrine that men can't lead the church astray is from men. go figure. God contradicts this 'doctrine' many times . Especially in Ezekial 14.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

It's just a choice, follow God's word or follow man''s.

[Jason]

good luck...perhaps you can work on Amos 3:7....

You are being myopic and narrow in your doctrinal approach. Members are masters at this. We’ve discussed this at great length just in this thread.

lol...fine...agree to disagree...and good luck!

I just want you to ponder the pretzel logic you are using.

Usually when one makes those kinds of comments...its best to look in the mirror first and make a close examination...

[Reluctant Watchman]

You are being myopic and narrow in your doctrinal approach. Members are masters at this. We’ve discussed this at great length just in this thread.

lol...fine...agree to disagree...and good luck!

I just want you to ponder the pretzel logic you are using.

Usually when one makes those kinds of comments...its best to look in the mirror first and make a close examination...

May God bless you too. I’m done arguing and disagreeing. There are better things to do with our time in days like these.

[Obeone]

the only source for the doctrine that men can't lead the church astray is from men. go figure. God contradicts this 'doctrine' many times . Especially in Ezekial 14.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

It's just a choice, follow God's word or follow man''s.

The promise that God gave was that this, the Last Dispensation of the Gospel will not be destroyed by apostasy.
Hence the promise that the leaders of His true Church will not lead it astray, as far as the eternal salvation is concerned.

So this Final Dispensation, and this situation, and this Church are special in that way, according to the word of God.

This does not however mean that the Prophet is infallible in lesser matters. They are not, and the current First Presidency repeatedly admitted that. As well as Joseph Smith himself admitted that repeatedly.

As always, the only one who is always infallible in all things is God. Therefore, as I said here, those who "follow the prophet" INSTEAD of the Spirit will be punished for it, and may even lose their lives.

But in eternal matters, regarding our eternal salvation, the word of the Prophet is infallible, because in such matters, God will not permit any one to lead the Church astray.

This is why the Lord said:

 D&C 21:4-6 
4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory.

So, short of personal revelation, this is how we ought to receive the words of living prophets and apostles.

But the Spirit of God outranks them every time.

[Jason]

lol...fine...agree to disagree...and good luck!

I just want you to ponder the pretzel logic you are using.

Usually when one makes those kinds of comments...its best to look in the mirror first and make a close examination...

May God bless you too. I’m done arguing and disagreeing. There are better things to do with our time in days like these.

lol...I agreed to disagree a number of times...but amen and amen!

[FrankOne]

the only source for the doctrine that men can't lead the church astray is from men. go figure. God contradicts this 'doctrine' many times . Especially in Ezekial 14.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

It's just a choice, follow God's word or follow man''s.

The promise that God gave was that this, the Last Dispensation of the Gospel will not be destroyed by apostasy.
Hence the promise that the leaders of His true Church will not lead it astray, as far as the eternal salvation is concerned.

.

I am unaware of such a promise. I recall one that says that the priesthood would never leave again, but not one referring to the "Last dispensation of the Gospel" .

could you quote that scripture? Thanks

edit to add:

Also, the quoted scripture in D&C referred to Joseph Smith. There is no implication of any more than that.

[FrankOne]

the only source for the doctrine that men can't lead the church astray is from men. go figure. God contradicts this 'doctrine' many times . Especially in Ezekial 14.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

It's just a choice, follow God's word or follow man''s.

The promise that God gave was that this, the Last Dispensation of the Gospel will not be destroyed by apostasy.
Hence the promise that the leaders of His true Church will not lead it astray, as far as the eternal salvation is concerned.

So this Final Dispensation, and this situation, and this Church are special in that way, according to the word of God.

This does not however mean that the Prophet is infallible in lesser matters. They are not, and the current First Presidency repeatedly admitted that. As well as Joseph Smith himself admitted that repeatedly.

As always, the only one who is always infallible in all things is God. Therefore, as I said here, those who "follow the prophet" INSTEAD of the Spirit will be punished for it, and may even lose their lives.

But in eternal matters, regarding our eternal salvation, the word of the Prophet is infallible, because in such matters, God will not permit any one to lead the Church astray.

This is why the Lord said:

 D&C 21:4-6 
4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory.

So, short of personal revelation, this is how we ought to receive the words of living prophets and apostles.

But the Spirit of God outranks them every time.

you have no foundation

[Obeone]

The promise that God gave was that this, the Last Dispensation of the Gospel will not be destroyed by apostasy.
Hence the promise that the leaders of His true Church will not lead it astray, as far as the eternal salvation is concerned.

I am unaware of such a promise. I recall one that says that the priesthood would never leave again, but not one referring to the "Last dispensation of the Gospel" .

could you quote that scripture? Thanks

Gladly. There are several actually:

 D&C 24:19 
19 For thou art called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning, yea, even for the last time; yea, and also all those whom thou hast ordained, and they shall do even according to this pattern. Amen.

 D&C 39:17 
17 Wherefore lay to with your might and call faithful laborers into my vineyard, that it may be pruned for the last time.

 D&C 43
26 Behold, the day has come, when the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full.
27 Behold, verily I say unto you, that these are the words of the Lord your God.
28 Wherefore, labor ye, labor ye in my vineyard for the last time—for the last time call upon the inhabitants of the earth.
29 For in mine own due time will I come upon the earth in judgment, and my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth.
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.

 D&C 88:84 
84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;

 D&C 90
2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.
3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;
4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.

 D&C 95:4 
4 For the preparation wherewith I design to prepare mine apostles to prune my vineyard for the last time, that I may bring to pass my strange act, that I may pour out my Spirit upon all flesh—

 D&C 112:30 
30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Next:

Also, the quoted scripture in D&C referred to Joseph Smith. There is no implication of any more than that.

Not correct. It is a general principle:

 D&C 1:38 
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

[FrankOne]

The promise that God gave was that this, the Last Dispensation of the Gospel will not be destroyed by apostasy.
Hence the promise that the leaders of His true Church will not lead it astray, as far as the eternal salvation is concerned.

I am unaware of such a promise. I recall one that says that the priesthood would never leave again, but not one referring to the "Last dispensation of the Gospel" .

could you quote that scripture? Thanks

Gladly. There are several actually:

 D&C 24:19 
19 For thou art called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning, yea, even for the last time; yea, and also all those whom thou hast ordained, and they shall do even according to this pattern. Amen.

 D&C 39:17 
17 Wherefore lay to with your might and call faithful laborers into my vineyard, that it may be pruned for the last time.

 D&C 43
26 Behold, the day has come, when the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full.
27 Behold, verily I say unto you, that these are the words of the Lord your God.
28 Wherefore, labor ye, labor ye in my vineyard for the last time—for the last time call upon the inhabitants of the earth.
29 For in mine own due time will I come upon the earth in judgment, and my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth.
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.

 D&C 88:84 
84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;

 D&C 90
2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.
3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;
4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.

 D&C 95:4 
4 For the preparation wherewith I design to prepare mine apostles to prune my vineyard for the last time, that I may bring to pass my strange act, that I may pour out my Spirit upon all flesh—

 D&C 112:30 
30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Next:

Also, the quoted scripture in D&C referred to Joseph Smith. There is no implication of any more than that.

Not correct. It is a general principle:

 D&C 1:38 
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

thanks for taking the time to provide your references.

As with any scripture, we read what we want to see. When i say "we" I mean myself as well. We disagree on the interpretation of those passages, but that doesn't mean I am right. I do know that we find what we look for.