Oaks on testimonies

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Christianlee
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Oaks on testimonies

Post by Christianlee »

“Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.

Isn’t this just manipulation? How can an honest person declare a testimony before gaining a testimony? I ask because when I was investigating the Church I never had any answer to prayer about the Book of Mormon after praying for hours. A member claimed I wasn’t getting an answer because I already knew it was true. I was 18 and wanted to join the Church so I accepted what he said, but looking back I now believe I was manipulated by that member. Can a person claim to have gained a testimony by just saying he has one?

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Luke
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Luke »

A testimony is something you know.

If you go around saying that you know something… it won’t magically make you know something.

If I start testifying to something that never happened in a court of law… I’m not going to magically start knowing that such a thing happened.

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Niemand
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Niemand »

Christianlee wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:48 am “Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.

Isn’t this just manipulation? How can an honest person declare a testimony before gaining a testimony? I ask because when I was investigating the Church I never had any answer to prayer about the Book of Mormon after praying for hours. A member claimed I wasn’t getting an answer because I already knew it was true. I was 18 and wanted to join the Church so I accepted what he said, but looking back I now believe I was manipulated by that member. Can a person claim to have gained a testimony by just saying he has one?
It's a self-reinforcement loop. I never got to appreciate the Book of Mormon that way. I think sitting in front of a succession of people getting up and saying, "I know X is true" or "I know the Book of Mormon is true" doesn't really get us anywhere. A certain percentage of those (especially those getting pushed to go on a mission for social reasons don't believe it).

blitzinstripes
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by blitzinstripes »

Niemand wrote: August 29th, 2022, 1:53 am
Christianlee wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:48 am “Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.

Isn’t this just manipulation? How can an honest person declare a testimony before gaining a testimony? I ask because when I was investigating the Church I never had any answer to prayer about the Book of Mormon after praying for hours. A member claimed I wasn’t getting an answer because I already knew it was true. I was 18 and wanted to join the Church so I accepted what he said, but looking back I now believe I was manipulated by that member. Can a person claim to have gained a testimony by just saying he has one?
It's a self-reinforcement loop. I never got to appreciate the Book of Mormon that way. I think sitting in front of a succession of people getting up and saying, "I know X is true" or "I know the Book of Mormon is true" doesn't really get us anywhere. A certain percentage of those (especially those getting pushed to go on a mission for social reasons don't believe it).

Yes. This simply amounts to using social peer pressure to manipulate someone into accepting a mainstream narrative. Everyone repeat after me...."follow the profit, follow the profit, follow the profit..."

Dave62
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Dave62 »

Holy Cat! I have never heard so much hand-wringing over testimonies. The best way to identify the Holy Spirit and thereby grow a testimony is to perform an act of service. The feeling you get upon completion of the act of service is God teling you through the medium of the Holy Ghost that this is what He wants you to be doing on a regular basis. This is basic 'Working with the Youth 101'.

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mes5464
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by mes5464 »

I agree. I think you can strengthen an existing testimony by sharing your testimony but you can't gain a testimony just be faithlessly sharing an insincere testimony.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness

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The Red Pill
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by The Red Pill »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:01 am Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness
Insightful article. You make an excellent point when you quote RMN.

"Recently Russel Nelson taught the following to the saints in Europe: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022, European Area Devotional)"

The truth is that you CANNOT trust them completely. These statements testify for themselves that what he said is NOT TRUE.

1. Safe and effective
2. Godsend
3. Wise and thoughtful government leaders
4. Only way to overcome the "pandemic" is through mass vaccination.
5. Social distancing works
6. Wearing a mask protects you

EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:01 am Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness
Insightful article. You make an excellent point when you quote RMN.

"Recently Russel Nelson taught the following to the saints in Europe: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022, European Area Devotional)"

The truth is that you CANNOT trust them completely. These statements testify for themselves that what he said is NOT TRUE.

1. Safe and effective
2. Godsend
3. Wise and thoughtful government leaders
4. Only way to overcome the "pandemic" is through mass vaccination.
5. Social distancing works
6. Wearing a mask protects you

EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!
BTW, Nelson actually said that statement twice. Once to the members in Europe and again to an area conference in California. Oh, and Wendy’s talk during that California conference was the epitome of idol worship of her husband.

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madvin
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by madvin »

The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:01 am


EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!
...before he said it.

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h_p
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by h_p »

Christianlee wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:48 am “Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.
Isn't this how you create an "Abilene Paradox?" You get everybody saying things they don't really believe, and then everybody starts to believe it based solely on the fact that everybody else is saying the same thing.

This is definitely something people need to be aware of and learn to guard against, and not just within a church. https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/ ... to-abilene

HVDC
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by HVDC »

Christianlee wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:48 am “Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.

Isn’t this just manipulation? How can an honest person declare a testimony before gaining a testimony? I ask because when I was investigating the Church I never had any answer to prayer about the Book of Mormon after praying for hours. A member claimed I wasn’t getting an answer because I already knew it was true. I was 18 and wanted to join the Church so I accepted what he said, but looking back I now believe I was manipulated by that member. Can a person claim to have gained a testimony by just saying he has one?
It is a form of manipulation.

Well meaning perhaps.

Perhaps not.

Members seem to forget that when someone is challenged to pray about the truthfulness of the BofM.

A no answer is just as valid of an answer as is a yes answer.

But it actually tells you more about their own testimony.

In that they don't actually have one.

Your friend didn't have one to share.

And neither does Oaks.

They do have a testimony.

Of the importance of having a testimony.

And that's why members can testify that they know the church is true.

Because that's as far as they've got.

It's all they will ever have.

Because you don't have to pray about that one.

Just believe.

And say it over and over.

Until it's true.

To you.

Sir H

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:01 am Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness
Insightful article. You make an excellent point when you quote RMN.

"Recently Russel Nelson taught the following to the saints in Europe: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022, European Area Devotional)"

The truth is that you CANNOT trust them completely. These statements testify for themselves that what he said is NOT TRUE.

1. Safe and effective
2. Godsend
3. Wise and thoughtful government leaders
4. Only way to overcome the "pandemic" is through mass vaccination.
5. Social distancing works
6. Wearing a mask protects you

EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!
you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison

I can't hear the birds singing today and I hope it is because of migration time of year . . . . I also see alot of trees dying as I have seen in Utah, Wyoming, So Dakota, Nebraska, Missouri . . . just sad

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The Red Pill
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by The Red Pill »

EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am
The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:01 am Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness
Insightful article. You make an excellent point when you quote RMN.

"Recently Russel Nelson taught the following to the saints in Europe: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022, European Area Devotional)"

The truth is that you CANNOT trust them completely. These statements testify for themselves that what he said is NOT TRUE.

1. Safe and effective
2. Godsend
3. Wise and thoughtful government leaders
4. Only way to overcome the "pandemic" is through mass vaccination.
5. Social distancing works
6. Wearing a mask protects you

EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!
you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison

I can't hear the birds singing today and I hope it is because of migration time of year . . . . I also see alot of trees dying as I have seen in Utah, Wyoming, So Dakota, Nebraska, Missouri . . . just sad
Yes, I am confident. Because, I have done my homework. Hundreds of hours researching this over the last 2.5 years. If I could do a Spock mind-melt with you, you would be confident too.

Nothing special about me, ANYONE can do what I have done, but you have to be willing to do it.

I totally agree with you about all the lies and deceptions in the world. Almost EVERYTHING coming from the MSM and government is a lie...and most people still believe they are getting the truth.

For anyone seeking truth, you first have to abandon sources of information that LIE to you everyday. It's no wonder that so many people are confused.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison
EvanLM: "what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else"
Also EvanLM: "The vax is poison"

Think about that for a minute.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

h_p wrote: August 29th, 2022, 8:23 am
Isn't this how you create an "Abilene Paradox?" You get everybody saying things they don't really believe, and then everybody starts to believe it based solely on the fact that everybody else is saying the same thing.

This is definitely something people need to be aware of and learn to guard against, and not just within a church. https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/ ... to-abilene
After just 3 beeps! :lol:
Oaks: Just go along with what everyone else is doing, and THEN you'll believe!! And THEN it will be true. :lol:

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 10:06 am
EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am
The Red Pill wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:01 am Here are a few thoughts I put down with regards to this very quote from Oaks:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness
Insightful article. You make an excellent point when you quote RMN.

"Recently Russel Nelson taught the following to the saints in Europe: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022, European Area Devotional)"

The truth is that you CANNOT trust them completely. These statements testify for themselves that what he said is NOT TRUE.

1. Safe and effective
2. Godsend
3. Wise and thoughtful government leaders
4. Only way to overcome the "pandemic" is through mass vaccination.
5. Social distancing works
6. Wearing a mask protects you

EVERY statement is demonstrably FALSE and has bee proven to be wrong. They were also provable to be wrong WHEN HE SAID IT!!
you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison

I can't hear the birds singing today and I hope it is because of migration time of year . . . . I also see alot of trees dying as I have seen in Utah, Wyoming, So Dakota, Nebraska, Missouri . . . just sad
Yes, I am confident. Because, I have done my homework. Hundreds of hours researching this over the last 2.5 years. If I could do a Spock mind-melt with you, you would be confident too.

Nothing special about me, ANYONE can do what I have done, but you have to be willing to do it.

I totally agree with you about all the lies and deceptions in the world. Almost EVERYTHING coming from the MSM and government is a lie...and most people still believe they are getting the truth.

For anyone seeking truth, you first have to abandon sources of information that LIE to you everyday. It's no wonder that so many people are confused.
and you believe you are stil getting the truth . . . but with your truth their is a certain smugness about you and those who "like" your facebook type posts. There is a certain group of people on this forum that think they have been saved from this illness because they are so smart . .. .

nope, not at all . . God is giving you more time to repent. . . for the love of man will wax cold . . . .your posts tell how much you love and care about your fellowman

you really don't indicate that you want to save anyone else but rather gloat in your superior intelligence and their deaths and sicknesses because they are so confused(as you say). . . LKike the evil people behind this genocide you posts as if you are happy to see people go down

you are being deceived by your own ego . . this is a fight between good and evil and just because you are not the one behind the shot doesn't mean that you shouldn't be careful about your condemnations regarding your fellowman which seems to show the same disdain for them as the arrogant democrats and faucis behind this evil agenda

has very little to do with being smart . . .which also reflects the attitude of the prophets that you gripe about . . they think they are smart like you,+ too

can you say that you are walking through this any spritually better than those you condemn?

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

I haven't seen many new intelligent posts on this forum for 2.5 years . . .just the same old stuff

you are repeating the stuff that the democrats want you to repeat to distract you from seeing the real world and what they are really stealing form us. You, too will awake to a sense . . . . cuz you are still living 2.5 years ago . . . move on

GeeR
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by GeeR »

Christianlee wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:48 am “Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.—April Conference, 2008.

Isn’t this just manipulation? How can an honest person declare a testimony before gaining a testimony? I ask because when I was investigating the Church I never had any answer to prayer about the Book of Mormon after praying for hours. A member claimed I wasn’t getting an answer because I already knew it was true. I was 18 and wanted to join the Church so I accepted what he said, but looking back I now believe I was manipulated by that member. Can a person claim to have gained a testimony by just saying he has one?
Sounds like an apostate not an apostle!

EvanLM
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Posts: 4798

Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 10:06 am
EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison
EvanLM: "what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else"
Also EvanLM: "The vax is poison"

Think about that for a minute.
you seem to ignore the fact that a diapportionate large number of people have died that did NOT take the shot. No sympathy from you on the accounts of any deaths either those who were vaxed or those who were not.

did you ever get on your knees and thank our God that you didn't die of this covid whatever it is or did you just assume that you are specila?

i am still as concerned about those who actually died of the covid which was said to be a biological weapon, too. Did you not notice how our political leaders glazed over all of the facts and you followed them right along. . . glazed over all of the facts.

perhaps you have an explanation of what the covid was or is.

c'mon . . .tell me.

I did have family die of it and I did have colleagues that died and almost died and I still have some of the remaining side effects which leaves me wondering what the he.. happened.

But since all you care about is showing how much smarter than you are than everyone else and can't seem to wrap your head around the entirety of it and the number of people tha thave died, then . . .well. . . . keep condemning and believing that you are a special person cuz it didn't affect you or maybe you just don't really give a d.....

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 2:35 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 10:06 am
EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison
EvanLM: "what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else"
Also EvanLM: "The vax is poison"

Think about that for a minute.
you seem to ignore the fact that a diapportionate large number of people have died that did NOT take the shot. No sympathy from you on the accounts of any deaths either those who were vaxed or those who were not.

did you ever get on your knees and thank our God that you didn't die of this covid whatever it is or did you just assume that you are specila?

i am still as concerned about those who actually died of the covid which was said to be a biological weapon, too. Did you not notice how our political leaders glazed over all of the facts and you followed them right along. . . glazed over all of the facts.

perhaps you have an explanation of what the covid was or is.

c'mon . . .tell me.

I did have family die of it and I did have colleagues that died and almost died and I still have some of the remaining side effects which leaves me wondering what the he.. happened.

But since all you care about is showing how much smarter than you are than everyone else and can't seem to wrap your head around the entirety of it and the number of people tha thave died, then . . .well. . . . keep condemning and believing that you are a special person cuz it didn't affect you or maybe you just don't really give a d.....
EvanLM, you make many false and baseless assumptions. I'm not going to parse through your comment to address what you said. I hope we all pray for each other, that light and understanding will be brought forth.

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

hope I explained that well. You who accuse the prophets of looking for a political answer have also expressed over and over and over again that this is political. And, like the prophets that you so condemn thinking political means has got you nowhere but repeating the same stuff.

This is a spiritual war . . . the only remnants left standing will be those who have compssion on their fellowmen and those who are faithful to God. Jesus can't use people without compassion for his work. have at'er

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 2:39 pm
EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 2:35 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: August 29th, 2022, 10:06 am
EvanLM wrote: August 29th, 2022, 9:30 am you're so confident . . what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else thatn the shot and we have been lied to by frontline, zelenk, etc. I hope not but so many liars in the world today and so much oppportunity to spead those lies

The vax is poison
EvanLM: "what if all of these deaths were being caused by something else"
Also EvanLM: "The vax is poison"

Think about that for a minute.
you seem to ignore the fact that a diapportionate large number of people have died that did NOT take the shot. No sympathy from you on the accounts of any deaths either those who were vaxed or those who were not.

did you ever get on your knees and thank our God that you didn't die of this covid whatever it is or did you just assume that you are specila?

i am still as concerned about those who actually died of the covid which was said to be a biological weapon, too. Did you not notice how our political leaders glazed over all of the facts and you followed them right along. . . glazed over all of the facts.

perhaps you have an explanation of what the covid was or is.

c'mon . . .tell me.

I did have family die of it and I did have colleagues that died and almost died and I still have some of the remaining side effects which leaves me wondering what the he.. happened.

But since all you care about is showing how much smarter than you are than everyone else and can't seem to wrap your head around the entirety of it and the number of people tha thave died, then . . .well. . . . keep condemning and believing that you are a special person cuz it didn't affect you or maybe you just don't really give a d.....
EvanLM, you make many false and baseless assumptions. I'm not going to parse through your comment to address what you said. I hope we all pray for each other, that light and understanding will be brought forth.
your past posts show that you don't really believe that. If I have to agree with you for the light which you insist that I should believe, then . . .well . . . hmmmm . . . this is the tribulations of the last days and you have spent numerous posts being heartless.

EvanLM
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by EvanLM »

hey red pill since you have researched . . tell me . . .what is this covid and why did so many people die who did not take the vax?

Serragon
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Re: Oaks on testimonies

Post by Serragon »

Making something audible can be very helpful. My audible prayers tend to be more focused than my mental prayers. And often when I am struggling to understand a book, if I read it out loud I am able to understand it better and really think and ponder about what I am reading.

I think the same is true with testimony. Making something audible that has lived only in your mind can help cement it into your heart. You may even find that you understand your testimony better and it becomes strengthened in the process. I believe this is what Elder Oakes is attempting to convey, not that you should fake it until you make it.

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