Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

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FrankOne
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

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Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 8:46 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 6th, 2022, 11:30 am After having read and participated in this thread , I honestly cannot understand why people need to have a man to lead them in spiritual affairs. There is only one reason that people defend the leadership of the LDS or ANY church is because they "need" their leader in order to feel better about their lives, and when that leader's authority is threatened or destroyed, the member's faith is crushed to dust.

If there comes an epoch event of biblical proportions and a true end times Prophet stands up to set things in order for the return of Christ, I'll certainly listen with open ears, but if he tells me that we need to go kill every living thing in a city, unborn and born babies etc....and mop up the blood and move into their houses, I'll still walk away as I would have done in the account of Joshua. Yah, I question everything that violates moral law whether they be "Gods" or men.

Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?
Well, why stop there. Lets continue with your logic. Why do you need a savior i mean come on give me a break. Why do you need someone to tell you what to do and give you commandments. He never lives up to your expectations right. Who needs a narrow path, with prophets, order, and expectations....

Why not go full libtard spiritualism, denounce all men and all gods. Let universe guide your inklings and lead your path to enlightenment. I mean come on to hell with baptism by proper authority, to hell with temples and priesthood ordinances...... they are all alters of satan and vain leadership that have nothing better to do then committ sin and act like prophets. Right? To hell with all them right and this stupid church joseph established who was a prophet and daniel said would roll forwatd, nut what tge hell do they know. They sure screwed up big time. This is what you guys sound like.

You guys and your bashing of christ anoited and his church knows no bounds.
Christ has done the work to deliver us. We can accept it or deny it. It's up to us as individuals and has nothing to do with men spiritually leading other men. There is no other intermediary between God and Man. Christ is the only name and means by which salvation comes.
Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
my viewpoint on baptism differs from yours. It wouldn't be a productive conversation to engage this subject. Hope is perfect because it comes from a perfect Father. The Father's plan is perfect. No worries, we all go home in due time. Time is the tool for remembering our Father and his son Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the conversation.

Chris
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Chris »

FrankOne wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:40 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 8:46 pm

Well, why stop there. Lets continue with your logic. Why do you need a savior i mean come on give me a break. Why do you need someone to tell you what to do and give you commandments. He never lives up to your expectations right. Who needs a narrow path, with prophets, order, and expectations....

Why not go full libtard spiritualism, denounce all men and all gods. Let universe guide your inklings and lead your path to enlightenment. I mean come on to hell with baptism by proper authority, to hell with temples and priesthood ordinances...... they are all alters of satan and vain leadership that have nothing better to do then committ sin and act like prophets. Right? To hell with all them right and this stupid church joseph established who was a prophet and daniel said would roll forwatd, nut what tge hell do they know. They sure screwed up big time. This is what you guys sound like.

You guys and your bashing of christ anoited and his church knows no bounds.
Christ has done the work to deliver us. We can accept it or deny it. It's up to us as individuals and has nothing to do with men spiritually leading other men. There is no other intermediary between God and Man. Christ is the only name and means by which salvation comes.
Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
my viewpoint on baptism differs from yours. It wouldn't be a productive conversation to engage this subject. Hope is perfect because it comes from a perfect Father. The Father's plan is perfect. No worries, we all go home in due time. Time is the tool for remembering our Father and his son Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the conversation.
I want to understand what your view is on baptism? Sounds like you dont think the lord is correct in what the new testament and nephi say?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.

Chris
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Chris »

Silver Pie wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:59 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.
Appreciate your thoughts, but if there is no true church and no true religion baptism is kind of pointless isnt it. I mean why dont you just baptize your self? If what you are saying is true above it would be just a valid as if just some random person does it........

wilford Woodruff once did as you suggested though attached is a copy of why and his response to it. Thanks for your thoughts but you see my point. If there is no authority or Gods church on the earth none of it matters but we know it does. Why was moses temple important over the egyptians, or the muslims or the hindus etc...... It only matters if it is done rigtht.

https://youtu.be/-ZcDr3JUSOs

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FrankOne
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by FrankOne »

Chris wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Silver Pie wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:59 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.
Appreciate your thoughts, but if there is no true church and no true religion baptism is kind of pointless isnt it. I mean why dont you just baptize your self? If what you are saying is true above it would be just a valid as if just some random person does it........

wilford Woodruff once did as you suggested though attached is a copy of why and his response to it. Thanks for your thoughts but you see my point. If there is no authority or Gods church on the earth none of it matters but we know it does. Why was moses temple important over the egyptians, or the muslims or the hindus etc...... It only matters if it is done rigtht.

https://youtu.be/-ZcDr3JUSOs
John the Baptist set the example. He didn't baptize anyone into a church. There was no church. Just a wild man in the countryside. Who would go to such a man today? The humble. The meek. The true in spirit.

Chris
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Chris »

FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 9:49 pm
Chris wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Silver Pie wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:59 pm
Chris wrote: September 15th, 2022, 9:17 pm Sure so how does one get baptised to enter his kingdom? Christ did say you cant even see heaven without it. Are you saying christ is going to come down from heaven to baptize you? If not arent you going to hell?

Pretty black and white. Was christ wrong?

If not, then who is going to baptize you and why is that okay?
I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.
Appreciate your thoughts, but if there is no true church and no true religion baptism is kind of pointless isnt it. I mean why dont you just baptize your self? If what you are saying is true above it would be just a valid as if just some random person does it........

wilford Woodruff once did as you suggested though attached is a copy of why and his response to it. Thanks for your thoughts but you see my point. If there is no authority or Gods church on the earth none of it matters but we know it does. Why was moses temple important over the egyptians, or the muslims or the hindus etc...... It only matters if it is done rigtht.

https://youtu.be/-ZcDr3JUSOs
John the Baptist set the example. He didn't baptize anyone into a church. There was no church. Just a wild man in the countryside. Who would go to such a man today? The humble. The meek. The true in spirit.
You need to do some more studying of john the baptist if you think that is true. He most certainly was baptising people into a church and there were many who were baptized not just christ. Infact there were so many being baptized it was causing an uproar...... john was called to prepare the way of the lord. He was called to do this work.

Your trying to belittle the ordiance of baptism is a blasphemy. Nephi says no man can enter the gate without it, christ says no one will make it to heaven with out it, the articles of faith clearly outline their importance. Anyone who reads the scriptures knows it essential and by proper authority at that.

Yet you dont think it is because it messes with your wacky theory of the church being fallen. So you have to try to rationalize it, but it cant be done. Christ is clear, unless you think he is lying.

Just one more hole in your church is fallen theory. Where can you go for salvation, no where except christ church, the church of jesus christ of later day saints

Perched Eagle
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Perched Eagle »

:)
Chris wrote: September 19th, 2022, 7:49 am
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 9:49 pm
Chris wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Silver Pie wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:59 pm

I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.
Appreciate your thoughts, but if there is no true church and no true religion baptism is kind of pointless isnt it. I mean why dont you just baptize your self? If what you are saying is true above it would be just a valid as if just some random person does it........

wilford Woodruff once did as you suggested though attached is a copy of why and his response to it. Thanks for your thoughts but you see my point. If there is no authority or Gods church on the earth none of it matters but we know it does. Why was moses temple important over the egyptians, or the muslims or the hindus etc...... It only matters if it is done rigtht.

https://youtu.be/-ZcDr3JUSOs
John the Baptist set the example. He didn't baptize anyone into a church. There was no church. Just a wild man in the countryside. Who would go to such a man today? The humble. The meek. The true in spirit.
You need to do some more studying of john the baptist if you think that is true. He most certainly was baptising people into a church and there were many who were baptized not just christ. Infact there were so many being baptized it was causing an uproar...... john was called to prepare the way of the lord. He was called to do this work.

Your trying to belittle the ordiance of baptism is a blasphemy. Nephi says no man can enter the gate without it, christ says no one will make it to heaven with out it, the articles of faith clearly outline their importance. Anyone who reads the scriptures knows it essential and by proper authority at that.

Yet you dont think it is because it messes with your wacky theory of the church being fallen. So you have to try to rationalize it, but it cant be done. Christ is clear, unless you think he is lying.

Just one more hole in your church is fallen theory. Where can you go for salvation, no where except christ church, the church of jesus christ of later day saints

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FrankOne
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by FrankOne »

Chris wrote: September 19th, 2022, 7:49 am
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 9:49 pm
Chris wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Silver Pie wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:59 pm

I'm not part of this conversation, but the people I associate with are willing to baptize (by authority, not by commission) anyone who repents and comes to Christ. All they have to say is that they want to be baptized - and they can stay any religion they are (unless that religion kicks them out). They can have their name, the baptizer's name, and the date of the baptism recorded if they want to, but no other information is taken (and even the above info is voluntary). The person being baptized joins no legal Church entity - and their path is between them and God. There is no prophet nor leader between the repentant person and God.
Appreciate your thoughts, but if there is no true church and no true religion baptism is kind of pointless isnt it. I mean why dont you just baptize your self? If what you are saying is true above it would be just a valid as if just some random person does it........

wilford Woodruff once did as you suggested though attached is a copy of why and his response to it. Thanks for your thoughts but you see my point. If there is no authority or Gods church on the earth none of it matters but we know it does. Why was moses temple important over the egyptians, or the muslims or the hindus etc...... It only matters if it is done rigtht.

https://youtu.be/-ZcDr3JUSOs
John the Baptist set the example. He didn't baptize anyone into a church. There was no church. Just a wild man in the countryside. Who would go to such a man today? The humble. The meek. The true in spirit.
You need to do some more studying of john the baptist if you think that is true. He most certainly was baptising people into a church
I can see that we will disagree without a conclusion. As I said before, I don't have any motivation to enter a discussion on this that will not be productive. We're both going to the same place but following different paths in the moment. I realize that may not sound 'right', but it is just the same. Good luck to you.


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Silver Pie
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

My computer blocks twitter, so I don't know how applicable this is:

https://twitter.com/AdamHerbets/status/ ... 8xJ5xkzKvA

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Pazooka
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

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There used to be mention of a reference to Pres Nelson in Paperdolls in an online book review that can no longer be found. Does the book mention him? Something about him performing abortions? Is that libelous to even ask about?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

Pazooka wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:16 pm There used to be mention of a reference to Pres Nelson in Paperdolls in an online book review that can no longer be found. Does the book mention him? Something about him performing abortions? Is that libelous to even ask about?
I don't know. I haven't read the book. I saw the link today on a discussion in another place, and thought it might be useful to put in this thread.

I don't think he'd perform abortions. He was trained as a heart surgeon. It's possible he'd have no idea how to do that.

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Pazooka
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Pazooka »

Silver Pie wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:34 pm
Pazooka wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:16 pm There used to be mention of a reference to Pres Nelson in Paperdolls in an online book review that can no longer be found. Does the book mention him? Something about him performing abortions? Is that libelous to even ask about?
I don't know. I haven't read the book. I saw the link today on a discussion in another place, and thought it might be useful to put in this thread.

I don't think he'd perform abortions. He was trained as a heart surgeon. It's possible he'd have no idea how to do that.
But that was one of the allegations made by either the authors of the book or an individual leaving a review for the book either on Amazon or Goodreads. But I can no longer locate the comment. Will look again.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

Pazooka wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:44 pm But that was one of the allegations made by either the authors of the book or an individual leaving a review for the book either on Amazon or Goodreads. But I can no longer locate the comment. Will look again.
If a review, it sounds like it was removed or edited. If you do find it, I hope you post it.

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Pazooka
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

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Silver Pie wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:45 pm
Pazooka wrote: September 28th, 2022, 4:44 pm But that was one of the allegations made by either the authors of the book or an individual leaving a review for the book either on Amazon or Goodreads. But I can no longer locate the comment. Will look again.
If a review, it sounds like it was removed or edited. If you do find it, I hope you post it.
Still looking, but I did find the following review on the Amazon listing for Paperdolls:
I've lived in Utah for most of my life and you have to put together the pieces of evidence that "All is NOT Well in Zion" contrary to what Prophet (Profit) Hinckley told the members in General Conference in 1996. He said the infamous words of "All is well in Zion" which fulfills LDS scriptural warnings found in 2 Nephi 28 about the blindly obedient being led astray by one (a false prophet DC 64:38-40) who will say "all is well in Zion." Later edited out of his talk written up in the Ensign!

The neighborhood sex rings mentioned in these two prominent neighborhoods along the Wasatch Front in Utah have also been confirmed in Cedar City, Lehi, and many, many other neighborhoods in Utah. A friend's young son was sodomized and traumatized in a neighborhood sex ring in Cedar City, UT eerily similar to what is described in this book. The publically disclosed official "Interoffice Memo" written by Presiding Bishop Glen L. Pace documents the FACTUAL existence of and confirmed satanic ritual abuse of over sixty individuals (mostly abused children) who all stated the same thing despite their widely dispersed locations -- that they were abused by church leaders and threatened if they told much as described in this truthful expose of sex abuse in Mormon neighborhoods.

The leader of one of the sex rings in the Boutiful neighborhood (exact neighborhood location not mentioned in the book but I am a friend of one of the abused girls) was the "apostle's daughter" with her "husband involved in banking". This would have been Kathleen Hinckley and Alan Barnes of Barnes banking.

Interestingly, it was Alan Barnes who confessed to the FBI regarding his writing out the bribery check for the Olympic Committe in the Salt Lake Olympic Committee corruption that made national news. An excellent news article on Barne's confession to the FBI was written in the Salt Lake Tribune entitled "The Silent Witness" since Alan Barnes conveniently died shortly after his confession to the FBI. It would have been horribly embarrassing for Hinckley's pubic image for Alan Barnes to have had to reiterate his confession during the famous Salt Lake City, Utah Olympic trial since his father-in-law was the Prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, at that time.

I am a mormon who knows the scriptures regardin the need for the Lord's House to be cleansed. I honor the Book of Mormon which gains support from artifacts carbon-dated that match the time line existence of ancient Americans found in the Book of Mormon from the "Hopewell Culture" and other archeological findings in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, New York, etc. as also carbon-dated by the Smithsonian. The Book of Mormon is a great witness of the "other sheep" that Christ visited (John 10:16), BUT the LDS church needs to get cleaned up and this book, Paperdolls is an excellent expose that All is NOT well in Zion!

Read: Tranceformation in America (MKUltra in the Mormon Church pg 118-119), research why LDS Judge Bybee endorses torture, The 19th Wife by Ann Eliza Young from 1876, Tubal Cain (and LDS secret Temple oaths)

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Silver Pie
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

Wow!

silverado
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by silverado »

Nicholas Alan Barnes obituary just says he died suddenly, no explanation. He was 65.

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Pazooka
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Pazooka »

silverado wrote: September 28th, 2022, 7:31 pm Nicholas Alan Barnes obituary just says he died suddenly, no explanation. He was 65.
What’s strange is that there are no Google search results for “Nicholas Alan Barnes” or “Nicholas Barnes” other than his obit. Even my stay-at-home housewife grandmother who died around the same time has more Google search results than that. Does that seem odd?

silverado
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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by silverado »

It seems that he mostly just used his middle name 'Alan'. Try a google search including 'Bain' or 'Romney' or 'Salt Lake Olympic Committee'.

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Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

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Article on a new book just out: Help Your Family Understand Why They Can Trust Living Prophets––Including on the Most Controversial Topics, By Duane Boyce and Kimberly White · September 26, 2022, from the Proctors at Meridian Magazine, at: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/help-your ... e_vignette

Extract here:
“A very important book.” Robert L. Millet

“I LOVED this book! Timely, refreshing, encouraging.” Taylor Halverson

“Destined to be a classic. Timely, inspiring, beautifully written.” Joni Hilton

“The questions are real . . . and THE LAST SAFE PLACE contains answers.” Susan Easton Black

We live in troubled times. When have we––our families and the world––ever needed prophets more than we do now? And yet, even among members, there are many who don’t know quite what to make of living prophets.

Some Questions about Prophets

For example, you might have family members or friends who wonder:

Are the presiding Brethren really prophets, or do they just have that title?
Do they actually receive revelation, or, in the end, are they just relying on their own judgment?
If they ever do receive revelation, doesn’t that actually happen infrequently?
If they’re truly prophets, and are really guided by revelation, why do so many––including active members I know––doubt, or even reject, some of their decisions?
If they’re really prophets, why do they sometimes institute policies that members can’t quite compute––that don’t match their personal understanding of the gospel? What are members supposed to do in situations like that?

For those who have them, these are haunting questions. But there are more. You might know someone who is troubled by questions like these:

If the presiding Brethren are really prophets, why do all the smart people in particular––people I admire––typically either ignore or reject them? Would smart people do that if they were truly prophets?
If they’re really prophets, why do so many members actually leave the Church?
If they’re really prophets, why do some members tell me we just need to tolerate current leaders, since their errors will eventually be corrected by new, younger leaders?
If they’re really prophets, why can’t they answer all the questions about why some things are done or not done?

Or perhaps you know people who have these questions:

How can the Brethren be considered reliable when some of the leaders’ remarks, such as Brigham Young’s, have been disavowed?
What can it possibly mean to say that the Brethren “can’t lead the Church astray” when we know they have human weaknesses and that they also have agency? Doesn’t this entail that they can lead the Church astray?
What can it possibly mean to “follow the prophet” when prophets have so often been infirm due to illness or old age?
Didn’t George Albert Smith himself express doubts about the reliability of the Brethren?
Didn’t Hugh B. Brown actually minimize the importance of gospel orthodoxy?
Doesn’t D&C 21:5 itself warn us that prophets can make important mistakes and that we therefore must have “all patience and faith” in following them?
Doesn’t the loss of the 116 pages, too, prove that prophetic leaders can make serious mistakes?

And perhaps these questions trouble some people you know:

If they’re really prophets, why does it take fifteen of them to lead the Church?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever need to change Church policies? Especially big ones?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever disagree with each other?
If they’re really prophets, why are so many departments, committees, studies, member surveys, meetings, experiments, presentations––and so on––needed to run the Church? Why is all that necessary if they’re really guided by revelation?
If they’re truly “special witnesses of Christ,” why do they never say anything about it?
If they’re really prophets, why is it so easy for people to find problems with their decisions and poke holes in them? Why does that happen so often, and why does it seem so easy to do?
In the end, isn’t following the Brethren really just blind obedience? Isn’t it actually for those who simply don’t want to think for themselves?

Trusting Against All Mortal Reason

All of these questions are real, and they all revolve around the issue of trust in living prophets. To appreciate just how crucial such trust is, consider this true story. It was shared with us by a friend whose father, a devoted Latter-day Saint, served as a military commander during wartime.

On one occasion, this commander’s unit found itself isolated and under significant jeopardy from the enemy, which was located north of their position. In considering the best course to follow, this leader gathered advice from his lieutenants in command, all of whom urged immediately heading in one direction or another as long as it was not north. This leader then went to the Lord in prayer and received the inspiration that he actually should head north to escape the enemy. This was completely counterintuitive and surprising, flying in the face of everything he knew. What he did not know, however, was that (1) a journalist had actually written an article describing the circumstances and jeopardy of this unit, (2) the enemy had read this article, and (3), as a result, enemy troops had moved from their locations in the north to take up positions in the south in order to prevent these troops’ escape. This military leader knew none of this, of course, but the point is, the Lord knew it—and thus gave him the inspiration to head north. Much to the consternation of his lieutenants, that is what this leader did, allowing his unit to eventually circle around the enemy’s new positions and head south safely.

Nothing could have been more surprising to this military leader than the direction he received—and yet it was precisely the direction that ended up saving his life and the lives of his men. And it all occurred for a very simple reason:

This leader trusted the Lord––and his men trusted him.

And all of them exercised this trust against all mortal reason.

The Danger We Face

The danger this combat unit faced is highly similar to the spiritual danger we face in this fallen world. We, too, find ourselves in a world full of enemy encampments. And, just as with this unit, only the Lord knows where all these enemy encampments are hidden and thus only he can guide us around them.

Fortunately, just as with these troops, we also have leaders who are in tune with the Lord, who listen to him, and who trust him. Thus, President Russell M. Nelson could say of prophetic leaders that “they see the harrowing dangers the adversary has placed or will yet place in our path,” and Elder Neal A. Maxwell could observe that prophets “are alerted to tiny trends that bode ill for mankind,” and that they are “the Lord’s early warning system” for matters that will later come to plague the people.[ii] Like this military commander, prophetic leaders can do this because they are in tune with the Lord, they listen to him, and they trust him.

The Problem

But here’s the problem. The Lord’s guidance to his leaders will sometimes direct us to go north when our own wisdom tells us that going north is the last thing we should do. That kind of disparity is guaranteed to create a challenge for many––just as it must have been a challenge for members of that combat unit.

But that unit’s experience also teaches us this: our own wisdom is untrustworthy. Unlike the Lord, we simply don’t know where all the enemy encampments are. And that lack of knowledge guarantees that we will sometimes be mystified by things the Lord directs, even though that direction is exactly what will save our lives!

The reality is, if we follow our own wisdom in such circumstances, and fail to go north, we will ultimately discover that we have walked directly into the hands of our enemy.

Helping Those We Love

So the key to the safe return of this combat unit was two-fold: its leader trusted the Lord––and its members trusted him.

Spiritually speaking, the same kind of trust is crucial for our day and for our own safe return. We have prophetic leaders who listen to the Lord and trust him, knowing that he––and only he––can guide them safely around and through all the hidden traps, perils, and enemy encampments of the last days. And this means something important for us––namely, that the only spiritually safe place for us is standing with them. Perhaps now, more than ever, it is the last safe place.

Now you probably trust living prophets already. Sadly, though, we all know and love people––family members and friends––who do not yet have such trust. They don’t think standing with prophets is such an important or safe place. In fact, they probably have the very kinds of questions about prophets that we listed earlier.

This obviously presents a challenge. Spiritual survival itself is at stake. And the desire to help with this challenge is why, as a father and daughter, we have written The Last Safe Place. It is not surprising, after all, that some of the people we love have problems with prophets; that is only natural in a fallen world. Typically, however, those problems are rooted in misconceptions. When we get past those misconceptions, people can actually find themselves open to the idea of prophets and of their role in representing the Lord––including in cases where the prophetic direction, against all mortal reason, is that we should go north.

The Last Safe Place corrects such misconceptions. It provides answers. In doing so, it identifies a few core principles that are crucial for understanding and sustaining prophets. This is why the subtitle of the book is: Seven Principles for Standing with the Prophets in Troubled Times.

When we understand these principles, and the misconceptions they correct, the shutters of our understanding are thrown open and light pours in. We find ourselves in a position to address every question that might be raised about prophets. We can help others understand that they truly can trust these servants––including on the topics that are most controversial and that trouble them the most. In short, we are in an improved position to help those we love.


Of course I'm exceedingly curious how they may have, or may not have, dealt with the statements from the Brethren on the "Godsend" COVID-19 shots. I may just get the book to find this out.

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Mamabear »

larsenb wrote: September 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Article on a new book just out: Help Your Family Understand Why They Can Trust Living Prophets––Including on the Most Controversial Topics, By Duane Boyce and Kimberly White · September 26, 2022, from the Proctors at Meridian Magazine, at: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/help-your ... e_vignette

Extract here:
“A very important book.” Robert L. Millet

“I LOVED this book! Timely, refreshing, encouraging.” Taylor Halverson

“Destined to be a classic. Timely, inspiring, beautifully written.” Joni Hilton

“The questions are real . . . and THE LAST SAFE PLACE contains answers.” Susan Easton Black

We live in troubled times. When have we––our families and the world––ever needed prophets more than we do now? And yet, even among members, there are many who don’t know quite what to make of living prophets.

Some Questions about Prophets

For example, you might have family members or friends who wonder:

Are the presiding Brethren really prophets, or do they just have that title?
Do they actually receive revelation, or, in the end, are they just relying on their own judgment?
If they ever do receive revelation, doesn’t that actually happen infrequently?
If they’re truly prophets, and are really guided by revelation, why do so many––including active members I know––doubt, or even reject, some of their decisions?
If they’re really prophets, why do they sometimes institute policies that members can’t quite compute––that don’t match their personal understanding of the gospel? What are members supposed to do in situations like that?

For those who have them, these are haunting questions. But there are more. You might know someone who is troubled by questions like these:

If the presiding Brethren are really prophets, why do all the smart people in particular––people I admire––typically either ignore or reject them? Would smart people do that if they were truly prophets?
If they’re really prophets, why do so many members actually leave the Church?
If they’re really prophets, why do some members tell me we just need to tolerate current leaders, since their errors will eventually be corrected by new, younger leaders?
If they’re really prophets, why can’t they answer all the questions about why some things are done or not done?

Or perhaps you know people who have these questions:

How can the Brethren be considered reliable when some of the leaders’ remarks, such as Brigham Young’s, have been disavowed?
What can it possibly mean to say that the Brethren “can’t lead the Church astray” when we know they have human weaknesses and that they also have agency? Doesn’t this entail that they can lead the Church astray?
What can it possibly mean to “follow the prophet” when prophets have so often been infirm due to illness or old age?
Didn’t George Albert Smith himself express doubts about the reliability of the Brethren?
Didn’t Hugh B. Brown actually minimize the importance of gospel orthodoxy?
Doesn’t D&C 21:5 itself warn us that prophets can make important mistakes and that we therefore must have “all patience and faith” in following them?
Doesn’t the loss of the 116 pages, too, prove that prophetic leaders can make serious mistakes?

And perhaps these questions trouble some people you know:

If they’re really prophets, why does it take fifteen of them to lead the Church?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever need to change Church policies? Especially big ones?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever disagree with each other?
If they’re really prophets, why are so many departments, committees, studies, member surveys, meetings, experiments, presentations––and so on––needed to run the Church? Why is all that necessary if they’re really guided by revelation?
If they’re truly “special witnesses of Christ,” why do they never say anything about it?
If they’re really prophets, why is it so easy for people to find problems with their decisions and poke holes in them? Why does that happen so often, and why does it seem so easy to do?
In the end, isn’t following the Brethren really just blind obedience? Isn’t it actually for those who simply don’t want to think for themselves?

Trusting Against All Mortal Reason

All of these questions are real, and they all revolve around the issue of trust in living prophets. To appreciate just how crucial such trust is, consider this true story. It was shared with us by a friend whose father, a devoted Latter-day Saint, served as a military commander during wartime.

On one occasion, this commander’s unit found itself isolated and under significant jeopardy from the enemy, which was located north of their position. In considering the best course to follow, this leader gathered advice from his lieutenants in command, all of whom urged immediately heading in one direction or another as long as it was not north. This leader then went to the Lord in prayer and received the inspiration that he actually should head north to escape the enemy. This was completely counterintuitive and surprising, flying in the face of everything he knew. What he did not know, however, was that (1) a journalist had actually written an article describing the circumstances and jeopardy of this unit, (2) the enemy had read this article, and (3), as a result, enemy troops had moved from their locations in the north to take up positions in the south in order to prevent these troops’ escape. This military leader knew none of this, of course, but the point is, the Lord knew it—and thus gave him the inspiration to head north. Much to the consternation of his lieutenants, that is what this leader did, allowing his unit to eventually circle around the enemy’s new positions and head south safely.

Nothing could have been more surprising to this military leader than the direction he received—and yet it was precisely the direction that ended up saving his life and the lives of his men. And it all occurred for a very simple reason:

This leader trusted the Lord––and his men trusted him.

And all of them exercised this trust against all mortal reason.

The Danger We Face

The danger this combat unit faced is highly similar to the spiritual danger we face in this fallen world. We, too, find ourselves in a world full of enemy encampments. And, just as with this unit, only the Lord knows where all these enemy encampments are hidden and thus only he can guide us around them.

Fortunately, just as with these troops, we also have leaders who are in tune with the Lord, who listen to him, and who trust him. Thus, President Russell M. Nelson could say of prophetic leaders that “they see the harrowing dangers the adversary has placed or will yet place in our path,” and Elder Neal A. Maxwell could observe that prophets “are alerted to tiny trends that bode ill for mankind,” and that they are “the Lord’s early warning system” for matters that will later come to plague the people.[ii] Like this military commander, prophetic leaders can do this because they are in tune with the Lord, they listen to him, and they trust him.

The Problem

But here’s the problem. The Lord’s guidance to his leaders will sometimes direct us to go north when our own wisdom tells us that going north is the last thing we should do. That kind of disparity is guaranteed to create a challenge for many––just as it must have been a challenge for members of that combat unit.

But that unit’s experience also teaches us this: our own wisdom is untrustworthy. Unlike the Lord, we simply don’t know where all the enemy encampments are. And that lack of knowledge guarantees that we will sometimes be mystified by things the Lord directs, even though that direction is exactly what will save our lives!

The reality is, if we follow our own wisdom in such circumstances, and fail to go north, we will ultimately discover that we have walked directly into the hands of our enemy.

Helping Those We Love

So the key to the safe return of this combat unit was two-fold: its leader trusted the Lord––and its members trusted him.

Spiritually speaking, the same kind of trust is crucial for our day and for our own safe return. We have prophetic leaders who listen to the Lord and trust him, knowing that he––and only he––can guide them safely around and through all the hidden traps, perils, and enemy encampments of the last days. And this means something important for us––namely, that the only spiritually safe place for us is standing with them. Perhaps now, more than ever, it is the last safe place.

Now you probably trust living prophets already. Sadly, though, we all know and love people––family members and friends––who do not yet have such trust. They don’t think standing with prophets is such an important or safe place. In fact, they probably have the very kinds of questions about prophets that we listed earlier.

This obviously presents a challenge. Spiritual survival itself is at stake. And the desire to help with this challenge is why, as a father and daughter, we have written The Last Safe Place. It is not surprising, after all, that some of the people we love have problems with prophets; that is only natural in a fallen world. Typically, however, those problems are rooted in misconceptions. When we get past those misconceptions, people can actually find themselves open to the idea of prophets and of their role in representing the Lord––including in cases where the prophetic direction, against all mortal reason, is that we should go north.

The Last Safe Place corrects such misconceptions. It provides answers. In doing so, it identifies a few core principles that are crucial for understanding and sustaining prophets. This is why the subtitle of the book is: Seven Principles for Standing with the Prophets in Troubled Times.

When we understand these principles, and the misconceptions they correct, the shutters of our understanding are thrown open and light pours in. We find ourselves in a position to address every question that might be raised about prophets. We can help others understand that they truly can trust these servants––including on the topics that are most controversial and that trouble them the most. In short, we are in an improved position to help those we love.


Of course I'm exceedingly curious how they may have, or may not have, dealt with the statements from the Brethren on the "Godsend" COVID-19 shots. I may just get the book to find this out.


Laughable article. I would love to ask them why it was taught in the Bible that prophets can lead you astray and why they teach the opposite of that doctrine.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Silver Pie »

larsenb wrote: September 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Article on a new book just out: Help Your Family Understand Why They Can Trust Living Prophets––Including on the Most Controversial Topics, By Duane Boyce and Kimberly White · September 26, 2022, from the Proctors at Meridian Magazine, at: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/help-your ... e_vignette
Wow! And I doubt they comprehend how satanic a doctrine it is to rely on the arm of flesh, even if that flesh has a title and is honored among their millions of followers.

I would be terrified to trust any man so completely.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15321
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Here's an article about Walter Hunter who sexually abused and raped his daughters. He was exxed from the church. This is the man who owned the car dealership in the Hinckley scandal:

Daughters Of Former Mormon Bishop Walton Hunter Accuse Father Of Rape
https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com ... r-of-rape/

silverado
captain of 100
Posts: 614

Re: Do we really know who these men are? (Gordon B. Hinckley video)

Post by silverado »

larsenb wrote: September 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Article on a new book just out: Help Your Family Understand Why They Can Trust Living Prophets––Including on the Most Controversial Topics, By Duane Boyce and Kimberly White · September 26, 2022, from the Proctors at Meridian Magazine, at: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/help-your ... e_vignette

Extract here:
“A very important book.” Robert L. Millet

“I LOVED this book! Timely, refreshing, encouraging.” Taylor Halverson

“Destined to be a classic. Timely, inspiring, beautifully written.” Joni Hilton

“The questions are real . . . and THE LAST SAFE PLACE contains answers.” Susan Easton Black

We live in troubled times. When have we––our families and the world––ever needed prophets more than we do now? And yet, even among members, there are many who don’t know quite what to make of living prophets.

Some Questions about Prophets

For example, you might have family members or friends who wonder:

Are the presiding Brethren really prophets, or do they just have that title?
Do they actually receive revelation, or, in the end, are they just relying on their own judgment?
If they ever do receive revelation, doesn’t that actually happen infrequently?
If they’re truly prophets, and are really guided by revelation, why do so many––including active members I know––doubt, or even reject, some of their decisions?
If they’re really prophets, why do they sometimes institute policies that members can’t quite compute––that don’t match their personal understanding of the gospel? What are members supposed to do in situations like that?

For those who have them, these are haunting questions. But there are more. You might know someone who is troubled by questions like these:

If the presiding Brethren are really prophets, why do all the smart people in particular––people I admire––typically either ignore or reject them? Would smart people do that if they were truly prophets?
If they’re really prophets, why do so many members actually leave the Church?
If they’re really prophets, why do some members tell me we just need to tolerate current leaders, since their errors will eventually be corrected by new, younger leaders?
If they’re really prophets, why can’t they answer all the questions about why some things are done or not done?

Or perhaps you know people who have these questions:

How can the Brethren be considered reliable when some of the leaders’ remarks, such as Brigham Young’s, have been disavowed?
What can it possibly mean to say that the Brethren “can’t lead the Church astray” when we know they have human weaknesses and that they also have agency? Doesn’t this entail that they can lead the Church astray?
What can it possibly mean to “follow the prophet” when prophets have so often been infirm due to illness or old age?
Didn’t George Albert Smith himself express doubts about the reliability of the Brethren?
Didn’t Hugh B. Brown actually minimize the importance of gospel orthodoxy?
Doesn’t D&C 21:5 itself warn us that prophets can make important mistakes and that we therefore must have “all patience and faith” in following them?
Doesn’t the loss of the 116 pages, too, prove that prophetic leaders can make serious mistakes?

And perhaps these questions trouble some people you know:

If they’re really prophets, why does it take fifteen of them to lead the Church?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever need to change Church policies? Especially big ones?
If they’re really prophets, guided by revelation, why do they ever disagree with each other?
If they’re really prophets, why are so many departments, committees, studies, member surveys, meetings, experiments, presentations––and so on––needed to run the Church? Why is all that necessary if they’re really guided by revelation?
If they’re truly “special witnesses of Christ,” why do they never say anything about it?
If they’re really prophets, why is it so easy for people to find problems with their decisions and poke holes in them? Why does that happen so often, and why does it seem so easy to do?
In the end, isn’t following the Brethren really just blind obedience? Isn’t it actually for those who simply don’t want to think for themselves?

Trusting Against All Mortal Reason

All of these questions are real, and they all revolve around the issue of trust in living prophets. To appreciate just how crucial such trust is, consider this true story. It was shared with us by a friend whose father, a devoted Latter-day Saint, served as a military commander during wartime.

On one occasion, this commander’s unit found itself isolated and under significant jeopardy from the enemy, which was located north of their position. In considering the best course to follow, this leader gathered advice from his lieutenants in command, all of whom urged immediately heading in one direction or another as long as it was not north. This leader then went to the Lord in prayer and received the inspiration that he actually should head north to escape the enemy. This was completely counterintuitive and surprising, flying in the face of everything he knew. What he did not know, however, was that (1) a journalist had actually written an article describing the circumstances and jeopardy of this unit, (2) the enemy had read this article, and (3), as a result, enemy troops had moved from their locations in the north to take up positions in the south in order to prevent these troops’ escape. This military leader knew none of this, of course, but the point is, the Lord knew it—and thus gave him the inspiration to head north. Much to the consternation of his lieutenants, that is what this leader did, allowing his unit to eventually circle around the enemy’s new positions and head south safely.

Nothing could have been more surprising to this military leader than the direction he received—and yet it was precisely the direction that ended up saving his life and the lives of his men. And it all occurred for a very simple reason:

This leader trusted the Lord––and his men trusted him.

And all of them exercised this trust against all mortal reason.

The Danger We Face

The danger this combat unit faced is highly similar to the spiritual danger we face in this fallen world. We, too, find ourselves in a world full of enemy encampments. And, just as with this unit, only the Lord knows where all these enemy encampments are hidden and thus only he can guide us around them.

Fortunately, just as with these troops, we also have leaders who are in tune with the Lord, who listen to him, and who trust him. Thus, President Russell M. Nelson could say of prophetic leaders that “they see the harrowing dangers the adversary has placed or will yet place in our path,” and Elder Neal A. Maxwell could observe that prophets “are alerted to tiny trends that bode ill for mankind,” and that they are “the Lord’s early warning system” for matters that will later come to plague the people.[ii] Like this military commander, prophetic leaders can do this because they are in tune with the Lord, they listen to him, and they trust him.

The Problem

But here’s the problem. The Lord’s guidance to his leaders will sometimes direct us to go north when our own wisdom tells us that going north is the last thing we should do. That kind of disparity is guaranteed to create a challenge for many––just as it must have been a challenge for members of that combat unit.

But that unit’s experience also teaches us this: our own wisdom is untrustworthy. Unlike the Lord, we simply don’t know where all the enemy encampments are. And that lack of knowledge guarantees that we will sometimes be mystified by things the Lord directs, even though that direction is exactly what will save our lives!

The reality is, if we follow our own wisdom in such circumstances, and fail to go north, we will ultimately discover that we have walked directly into the hands of our enemy.

Helping Those We Love

So the key to the safe return of this combat unit was two-fold: its leader trusted the Lord––and its members trusted him.

Spiritually speaking, the same kind of trust is crucial for our day and for our own safe return. We have prophetic leaders who listen to the Lord and trust him, knowing that he––and only he––can guide them safely around and through all the hidden traps, perils, and enemy encampments of the last days. And this means something important for us––namely, that the only spiritually safe place for us is standing with them. Perhaps now, more than ever, it is the last safe place.

Now you probably trust living prophets already. Sadly, though, we all know and love people––family members and friends––who do not yet have such trust. They don’t think standing with prophets is such an important or safe place. In fact, they probably have the very kinds of questions about prophets that we listed earlier.

This obviously presents a challenge. Spiritual survival itself is at stake. And the desire to help with this challenge is why, as a father and daughter, we have written The Last Safe Place. It is not surprising, after all, that some of the people we love have problems with prophets; that is only natural in a fallen world. Typically, however, those problems are rooted in misconceptions. When we get past those misconceptions, people can actually find themselves open to the idea of prophets and of their role in representing the Lord––including in cases where the prophetic direction, against all mortal reason, is that we should go north.

The Last Safe Place corrects such misconceptions. It provides answers. In doing so, it identifies a few core principles that are crucial for understanding and sustaining prophets. This is why the subtitle of the book is: Seven Principles for Standing with the Prophets in Troubled Times.

When we understand these principles, and the misconceptions they correct, the shutters of our understanding are thrown open and light pours in. We find ourselves in a position to address every question that might be raised about prophets. We can help others understand that they truly can trust these servants––including on the topics that are most controversial and that trouble them the most. In short, we are in an improved position to help those we love.


Of course I'm exceedingly curious how they may have, or may not have, dealt with the statements from the Brethren on the "Godsend" COVID-19 shots. I may just get the book to find this out.


Let us know if you do.

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