"Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

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Fred
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"Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... 0aSxaFAQAA

I was pondering this quote by Nelson from his April 2021 General Conference address.

I want to better understand the thought process behind this warning. Is he concerned that by rehearsing your doubts with other people who share similar doubts, you'll feel a sense of vindication for your doubts and potentially gain additional doubts from other doubters' perspectives? Is Nelson here revealing to us the modus operandi of how someone reinforces or gains doubts in the church? Even if you don't have doubts yourself, you can gain doubts if you spend your time listening to the repetitious doubts of doubters or even just by sharing your doubts with others.

With this modus operandi established, replace "doubts" with "testimony" and "doubters" with "testimony bearers".

With an established Testimony Meeting once a month, testimonies tied to every talk, and lesson, testimonies shared at firesides, conferences, etc., are the brethren intentionally following this same pattern for establishing faith and testimonies in the church and in the brethren? Boyd K. Packer's talk "The Candle of the Lord" comes to mind:

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!

Being raised in the church, I felt that a testimony was to only be gained through study, prayer, and a feeling from the Holy Ghost. This pattern leads me to believe that my testimony was actually gained through listening to others consistently bear their testimonies until I convinced myself that the shared testimonies of the church leaders/members are now my own.

I understand that this pattern is not indicative of how all members gain and reinforce their testimonies, or how all doubters gain and reinforce their doubts, but I know this pattern ultimately contributes to some extent.

Bottom line: Rehearsing doubts to other doubters is a direct result of a pattern established in the church on how testimonies are to be strengthened.

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marc
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by marc »

The phrase, "strengthen your testimony" has never sat right with me. If you witness a car crash or a robbery and provide witness for it in a court, your testimony is a statement of what you witnessed. You cannot strengthen it, you can only embellish it or add some kind of fabrication to it. What you saw is what you saw. It's what you experienced at the scene. Thus, to me, a testimony is not something to strengthen. If anything, you grow by witnessing more things. Then you can share your testimony of new experiences. Lehi's testimony didn't grow. It just was. He saw what he saw and he wrote about it. If anything, what you can strengthen is your relationship with the Lord. You can strengthen your faith in Him as your relationship grows based on your trust to do His will. Strengthening a testimony seems like just a cool catch phrase.

EvanLM
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by EvanLM »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... 0aSxaFAQAA

I was pondering this quote by Nelson from his April 2021 General Conference address.

I want to better understand the thought process behind this warning. Is he concerned that by rehearsing your doubts with other people who share similar doubts, you'll feel a sense of vindication for your doubts and potentially gain additional doubts from other doubters' perspectives? Is Nelson here revealing to us the modus operandi of how someone reinforces or gains doubts in the church? Even if you don't have doubts yourself, you can gain doubts if you spend your time listening to the repetitious doubts of doubters or even just by sharing your doubts with others.

With this modus operandi established, replace "doubts" with "testimony" and "doubters" with "testimony bearers".

With an established Testimony Meeting once a month, testimonies tied to every talk, and lesson, testimonies shared at firesides, conferences, etc., are the brethren intentionally following this same pattern for establishing faith and testimonies in the church and in the brethren? Boyd K. Packer's talk "The Candle of the Lord" comes to mind:

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!

Being raised in the church, I felt that a testimony was to only be gained through study, prayer, and a feeling from the Holy Ghost. This pattern leads me to believe that my testimony was actually gained through listening to others consistently bear their testimonies until I convinced myself that the shared testimonies of the church leaders/members are now my own.

I understand that this pattern is not indicative of how all members gain and reinforce their testimonies, or how all doubters gain and reinforce their doubts, but I know this pattern ultimately contributes to some extent.

Bottom line: Rehearsing doubts to other doubters is a direct result of a pattern established in the church on how testimonies are to be strengthened.

RM has been reading your posts.

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Fred
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

marc wrote: August 21st, 2022, 5:11 pm The phrase, "strengthen your testimony" has never sat right with me. If you witness a car crash or a robbery and provide witness for it in a court, your testimony is a statement of what you witnessed. You cannot strengthen it, you can only embellish it or add some kind of fabrication to it. What you saw is what you saw. It's what you experienced at the scene. Thus, to me, a testimony is not something to strengthen. If anything, you grow by witnessing more things. Then you can share your testimony of new experiences. Lehi's testimony didn't grow. It just was. He saw what he saw and he wrote about it. If anything, what you can strengthen is your relationship with the Lord. You can strengthen your faith in Him as your relationship grows based on your trust to do His will. Strengthening a testimony seems like just a cool catch phrase.
This should be taught from the pulpit.

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marc
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by marc »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 6:37 pm
marc wrote: August 21st, 2022, 5:11 pm The phrase, "strengthen your testimony" has never sat right with me. If you witness a car crash or a robbery and provide witness for it in a court, your testimony is a statement of what you witnessed. You cannot strengthen it, you can only embellish it or add some kind of fabrication to it. What you saw is what you saw. It's what you experienced at the scene. Thus, to me, a testimony is not something to strengthen. If anything, you grow by witnessing more things. Then you can share your testimony of new experiences. Lehi's testimony didn't grow. It just was. He saw what he saw and he wrote about it. If anything, what you can strengthen is your relationship with the Lord. You can strengthen your faith in Him as your relationship grows based on your trust to do His will. Strengthening a testimony seems like just a cool catch phrase.
This should be taught from the pulpit.
I'm not shy about sharing such things over the pulpit in fast and testimony meeting or when I teach gospel doctrine class. But now you, too, can do the same. ;)

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Fred
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

marc wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:05 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 6:37 pm
marc wrote: August 21st, 2022, 5:11 pm The phrase, "strengthen your testimony" has never sat right with me. If you witness a car crash or a robbery and provide witness for it in a court, your testimony is a statement of what you witnessed. You cannot strengthen it, you can only embellish it or add some kind of fabrication to it. What you saw is what you saw. It's what you experienced at the scene. Thus, to me, a testimony is not something to strengthen. If anything, you grow by witnessing more things. Then you can share your testimony of new experiences. Lehi's testimony didn't grow. It just was. He saw what he saw and he wrote about it. If anything, what you can strengthen is your relationship with the Lord. You can strengthen your faith in Him as your relationship grows based on your trust to do His will. Strengthening a testimony seems like just a cool catch phrase.
This should be taught from the pulpit.
I'm not shy about sharing such things over the pulpit in fast and testimony meeting or when I teach gospel doctrine class. But now you, too, can do the same. ;)
Now I have to go buy some church clothes.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986

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Fred
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:23 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986
I clicked on the link you gave, but I was unable to find where you quoted me from.

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Fred
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:41 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:23 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986
I clicked on the link you gave, but I was unable to find where you quoted me from.
Oh, well that quote that you attributed to me was from the link on Reddit. The Reddit link is at the top of that post. All I did was share a post from Reddit and gave the proper attribution. I did not say what you said I said.

viewtopic.php?p=1295059#p1295059

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:41 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:23 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986
I clicked on the link you gave, but I was unable to find where you quoted me from.
5th paragraph of your OP. It’s a stand alone statement.

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Fred
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Fred »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:53 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:41 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:23 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986
I clicked on the link you gave, but I was unable to find where you quoted me from.
5th paragraph of your OP. It’s a stand alone statement.
Yeah. But those are not my words. I copied a post. The words are from Reddit. But no harm, no foul. I know you are one of the good guys.

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

EvanLM wrote: August 21st, 2022, 5:32 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... 0aSxaFAQAA

I was pondering this quote by Nelson from his April 2021 General Conference address.

I want to better understand the thought process behind this warning. Is he concerned that by rehearsing your doubts with other people who share similar doubts, you'll feel a sense of vindication for your doubts and potentially gain additional doubts from other doubters' perspectives? Is Nelson here revealing to us the modus operandi of how someone reinforces or gains doubts in the church? Even if you don't have doubts yourself, you can gain doubts if you spend your time listening to the repetitious doubts of doubters or even just by sharing your doubts with others.

With this modus operandi established, replace "doubts" with "testimony" and "doubters" with "testimony bearers".

With an established Testimony Meeting once a month, testimonies tied to every talk, and lesson, testimonies shared at firesides, conferences, etc., are the brethren intentionally following this same pattern for establishing faith and testimonies in the church and in the brethren? Boyd K. Packer's talk "The Candle of the Lord" comes to mind:

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!

Being raised in the church, I felt that a testimony was to only be gained through study, prayer, and a feeling from the Holy Ghost. This pattern leads me to believe that my testimony was actually gained through listening to others consistently bear their testimonies until I convinced myself that the shared testimonies of the church leaders/members are now my own.

I understand that this pattern is not indicative of how all members gain and reinforce their testimonies, or how all doubters gain and reinforce their doubts, but I know this pattern ultimately contributes to some extent.

Bottom line: Rehearsing doubts to other doubters is a direct result of a pattern established in the church on how testimonies are to be strengthened.

RM has been reading your posts.
🤣😆😎

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KerriM
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by KerriM »

As I was researching for Come Follow Me this week, I came across something I learned about music. (CFM is on Psalms). There is a study that shows that music can synchronize heartbeats. So, for instance, with a choir singing a song, those singing the same notes will begin to synchronize their heartbeats. It’s pretty cool. That’s probably why God has us sing.
In Psalms 81 it says,
1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
4 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.
So, it was essentially a commandment in Isreal to sing. Possibly to help them become of one heart and one mind.

I am wondering if telling stories does something similar. This is what my thoughts went to when I read this thread. Testimony or doubt sharing would probably fall under the same umbrella. Sharing similar thoughts could unify us in some way. I've seen it in other areas too. It has me thinking now about how sharing draws hearts and minds in the same direction. It can be both a tool of God and of the Devil.

I really like what Marc said about testimonies too. I think many forget what a testimony is.

CuriousThinker
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by CuriousThinker »

KerriM wrote: August 21st, 2022, 10:25 pm As I was researching for Come Follow Me this week, I came across something I learned about music. (CFM is on Psalms). There is a study that shows that music can synchronize heartbeats. So, for instance, with a choir singing a song, those singing the same notes will begin to synchronize their heartbeats. It’s pretty cool. That’s probably why God has us sing.
In Psalms 81 it says,
1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
4 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.
So, it was essentially a commandment in Isreal to sing. Possibly to help them become of one heart and one mind.

I am wondering if telling stories does something similar. This is what my thoughts went to when I read this thread. Testimony or doubt sharing would probably fall under the same umbrella. Sharing similar thoughts could unify us in some way. I've seen it in other areas too. It has me thinking now about how sharing draws hearts and minds in the same direction. It can be both a tool of God and of the Devil.

I really like what Marc said about testimonies too. I think many forget what a testimony is.
Thanks for sharing about that. I learned something new. It looks like stories do it too.
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/narrati ... -or-music/

EvanLM
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by EvanLM »

Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:43 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:41 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:23 pm
Fred wrote: August 21st, 2022, 4:45 pm A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Such a good phrase…

viewtopic.php?t=60986
I clicked on the link you gave, but I was unable to find where you quoted me from.
Oh, well that quote that you attributed to me was from the link on Reddit. The Reddit link is at the top of that post. All I did was share a post from Reddit and gave the proper attribution. I did not say what you said I said.

viewtopic.php?p=1295059#p1295059
and much like the brethren that you condemn . . . in fact, probably a perfect quote used by at least five of the 15. . . all I did was share

sounds just like them mormon GAs . . . so busted . . . you are bwahahahahaha takes one to know one hahahahahahaha

EvanLM
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by EvanLM »

this one is quoted from oaks . . I just can't remember which GC I did not say what you said I said.

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madvin
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by madvin »

CuriousThinker wrote: August 22nd, 2022, 5:53 am
KerriM wrote: August 21st, 2022, 10:25 pm As I was researching for Come Follow Me this week, I came across something I learned about music. (CFM is on Psalms). There is a study that shows that music can synchronize heartbeats. So, for instance, with a choir singing a song, those singing the same notes will begin to synchronize their heartbeats. It’s pretty cool. That’s probably why God has us sing.
In Psalms 81 it says,
1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
4 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.
So, it was essentially a commandment in Isreal to sing. Possibly to help them become of one heart and one mind.

I am wondering if telling stories does something similar. This is what my thoughts went to when I read this thread. Testimony or doubt sharing would probably fall under the same umbrella. Sharing similar thoughts could unify us in some way. I've seen it in other areas too. It has me thinking now about how sharing draws hearts and minds in the same direction. It can be both a tool of God and of the Devil.

I really like what Marc said about testimonies too. I think many forget what a testimony is.
Thanks for sharing about that. I learned something new. It looks like stories do it too.
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/narrati ... -or-music/
And praying together.

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David13
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by David13 »

"Doubt your doubts before you doubt the corporate executives in Salt Lake."

Seems like I remember that quote from one of the corporate executives, in Conference.

My faith is in God the Father and not necessarily the corporate church.

As I think back on the many years I knew of, but was not yet a member of, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I thought of the church as ... very business-like. Run much like some great corporate entity.

Maybe it was just all the white shirts and ties.

A doubt isn't a doubt until you can state it. A theory isn't a theory until you can state it. And you can't prove or disprove either until you can state them.

And if you doubt the corporate executives, or the corporate succession to prophecy does not mean you doubt God the Father.
dc

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FrankOne
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by FrankOne »

"Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters."

translation:

"Stop questioning because the answers might expose our errors in leadership." and "Please don't question in the company of others, this may lead to numerous people leaving our control"

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FrankOne
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by FrankOne »

FrankOne wrote: August 24th, 2022, 10:32 am "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters."

translation:

"Stop questioning because the answers might expose our errors in leadership." and "Please don't question in the company of others, this may lead to numerous people leaving our control"
I quoted my own post to continue the thought with a prophecy:

Bishop Koyle:

"There will be great bitterness towards the general authorities. The leaders will have to take to the pulpits to keep people from leaving the Church."

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Chip
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Chip »

FrankOne wrote: August 24th, 2022, 10:45 am
FrankOne wrote: August 24th, 2022, 10:32 am "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters."

translation:

"Stop questioning because the answers might expose our errors in leadership." and "Please don't question in the company of others, this may lead to numerous people leaving our control"
I quoted my own post to continue the thought with a prophecy:

Bishop Koyle:

"There will be great bitterness towards the general authorities. The leaders will have to take to the pulpits to keep people from leaving the Church."
If tons of members end up dead and sick because of the safe and effective godsend, I don't think there will be much they can do to save the situation. God will have exposed them.

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FrankOne
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by FrankOne »

A different thought came to mind while thinking this through.

I had heard 10th hand that RMN was quite a draconian father.

As the church loses fidelity, he is feeling the loss of his church family and is doing all that he can to keep them in one place. While doing this, he is incapable of looking at himself as a major motivator for them leaving.

As the church membership dwindles, it is probable that he sees the apostates as "bad kids" that couldn't maintain their faith. A few years ago, I had a hope that an Angel would whack him with a willow to get him on track. That hope is gone now.

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Original_Intent
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Original_Intent »

marc wrote: August 21st, 2022, 5:11 pm The phrase, "strengthen your testimony" has never sat right with me. If you witness a car crash or a robbery and provide witness for it in a court, your testimony is a statement of what you witnessed. You cannot strengthen it, you can only embellish it or add some kind of fabrication to it. What you saw is what you saw. It's what you experienced at the scene. Thus, to me, a testimony is not something to strengthen. If anything, you grow by witnessing more things. Then you can share your testimony of new experiences. Lehi's testimony didn't grow. It just was. He saw what he saw and he wrote about it. If anything, what you can strengthen is your relationship with the Lord. You can strengthen your faith in Him as your relationship grows based on your trust to do His will. Strengthening a testimony seems like just a cool catch phrase.
I've hated the abuse of the term testimony for decades. I'm glad some know what it means.

Also relates to bearing false witness.

If you didn't see it, sit down and shut up (not aimed at you, just the typical thankimony travelog meeting.

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The Red Pill
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by The Red Pill »

Chip wrote: August 24th, 2022, 11:05 am
FrankOne wrote: August 24th, 2022, 10:45 am
FrankOne wrote: August 24th, 2022, 10:32 am "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters."

translation:

"Stop questioning because the answers might expose our errors in leadership." and "Please don't question in the company of others, this may lead to numerous people leaving our control"
I quoted my own post to continue the thought with a prophecy:

Bishop Koyle:

"There will be great bitterness towards the general authorities. The leaders will have to take to the pulpits to keep people from leaving the Church."
If tons of members end up dead and sick because of the safe and effective godsend, I don't think there will be much they can do to save the situation. God will have exposed them.
Excellent point! They are dying and getting sick right now, but the censorship of this information keeps the lie going of safe and effective. Actuarial data from insurance companies is coming out and Ed Dowd broke a story a couple of days ago proving a 84% increase overall in excess deaths over baseline. All the insurance companies now know.

The cat is out of the bag now, so it is just a matter of time before the light of truth spreads to the normies that got the clot-shot, that they are a ticking time bomb. With this epiphany...they will NOT be happy campers. Expect MASSIVE retaliation on those who promoted, recommended or urged it on them.

I interpret the RMN quote as don't talk with like minded people...if they disagree with us.

Mamabear
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Re: "Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters." - Russell M. Nelson

Post by Mamabear »

“Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."

Doubt your leaders before you doubt your God.

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