An interesting fact, the Baptist background of many early L.D.S. leaders.

[kirtland r.m.]

I don't really have the time to make up a list of these, but I have came across this time after time. Modern day Baptists would not want you to know, but it is a fact. Many, many L.D.S. leaders from Joseph's era were former Baptists or had a strong Baptist background. Two very prominent ones were Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball. One other note, about Roger Williams the Father of our First Amendment and is also credited with founding the First Baptist Church in America. Roger Williams soon left the Baptist Church, he then taught “The apostasy… hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles the following. to plant churches anew.” (Underhill, Edward, “Struggles and Triumphs of Religious Liberty”, cited in William F. Anderson, “Apostasy or Succession, Which?”, pp. 238-39)

[creator]

What religious background were most of the converts from England?

[kirtland r.m.]

What religious background were most of the converts from England?

Legislation in the 1820s had removed some of the barriers that had excluded Christians outside the Church of England – such as Catholics and Methodists – from most public offices and degrees at Oxford or Cambridge.

Pressure for further change was encouraged when the 1851 census revealed that out of a population of nearly 18 million, only 5.2 million attended Church of England services, with 4.9 million attending other Christian places of worship. The rise of non-Anglican Protestant denominations – including Methodists, Baptists and Quakers – is particularly striking: between them they represented nearly half the worshipping nation.

This blow to the Church of England led to pressure for further reforms, culminating in an 1871 Act of Parliament that abolished all religious requirements for attendance at universities.https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/lea ... /religion/

[Niemand]

What religious background were most of the converts from England?

Legislation in the 1820s had removed some of the barriers that had excluded Christians outside the Church of England – such as Catholics and Methodists – from most public offices and degrees at Oxford or Cambridge.

Pressure for further change was encouraged when the 1851 census revealed that out of a population of nearly 18 million, only 5.2 million attended Church of England services, with 4.9 million attending other Christian places of worship. The rise of non-Anglican Protestant denominations – including Methodists, Baptists and Quakers – is particularly striking: between them they represented nearly half the worshipping nation.

This blow to the Church of England led to pressure for further reforms, culminating in an 1871 Act of Parliament that abolished all religious requirements for attendance at universities.https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/lea ... /religion/

It's very much a regional thing within England. If you know England well, there are some pockets where certain non-Anglican traditions predominate. For example, in some parts of Lancashire and Norfolk (and other places) there is a substantial Roman Catholic element - this has been bolstered by Irish immigration etc, but there is a native RC tradition there. In other places there are substantial Methodist colonies - Norfolk again, and the West Country, which is the "leg" of England. The upper classes tended to be Church of England, so did many working class people, but it took the likes of the Methodists and the Salvation Army (founded 1865) to do substantial missionary work to slums and industrial areas. The Church of England loved to do missions.... out to other continents, especially Asia and Africa, not to its own backyard. So a lot of the industrial poor, which the LDS tended to evangelise tended to be non-Anglican Protestants, many of whom were keen to escape dirt and poverty.

England's neighbours, Wales and Ireland have NEVER had an Anglican majority. Anglicanism was the state religion in both these countries, but the Welsh and Irish never took to it in large numbers and resented it - especially because they charged money to be buried and collected money off non-members. It is fair enough to say this resentment helped build up Irish and Welsh nationalism. Wales has tended towards Methodism, and was generally staunch Protestant into living memory (with a few exceptions). The Welsh were late out of Catholicism, and early into so called non-conformism, partly because the small Protestant groups were much better with supporting the Welsh language. Most of the Irish remained Roman Catholic, with some English settlers bringing in Anglicanism, and the Scottish ones bringing in Presbyterianism - many Irish converted to Methodism as well, and today, Ulster has a very diverse Protestant landscape. Most of Ireland less so, but the bit around Dublin tends to be more varied. Many Protestants (including Anglicans) were hounded out of places like rural County Cork by the IRA, during the War of Independence a century ago - nowadays, there are still substantial numbers of Protestants in the Republic, but they are less scattered than they were, and don't face the same kind of discrimination.

Scotland has a completely different situation to England, Wales and Ireland. Anglicanism was never the state church here, and the Church of England never had any official standing here. In fact, it was part of the foundation of the United Kingdom that Scotland would retain its own established church and other exceptions. The Church of Scotland (the Kirk) is Presbyterian, and most Scots would have traditionally been Presbyterian, and variants thereof, and the Kirk put a high premium on universal literacy, so we were one of the most educated nations in Europe a century or two back. Some of my Highland ancestors were Free Church, which means that they were Presbyterians who were not part of the main Church of Scotland (which I myself grew up in), which was seen as backing the landlords against the common people. The Scottish Highlands had a brutal history of people being evicted from their homes, so Highlanders often felt strongly about it. We've never had a huge Quaker constituent in Scotland, but there is a long established meeting house in Edinburgh. Some parts of the West Highlands, Banffshire and the Hebrides remained Roman Catholic, but the bulk of conversions seem to have been from mining areas in Central Scotland. The closest analogy to the Church of England in Scotland is in fact the Scottish Episcopal Church, which has independent origins, but is now allied to it - it is the no. 3 church in Scotland, and was never the state church

[Thinker]

... Many, many L.D.S. leaders from Joseph's era were former Baptists or had a strong Baptist background…

Interesting.
My lds convert (ex-Baptist) friend said the lds church reminded them of their Baptist upbringing.

[Niemand]

... Many, many L.D.S. leaders from Joseph's era were former Baptists or had a strong Baptist background…

Interesting.
My lds convert (ex-Baptist) friend said the lds church reminded them of their Baptist upbringing.

I think it depends on the flavour. Baptists vary a lot.

One thing I notice with the Baptists and us is that we tend to have a similar socioeconomic makeip round here. A lot of our converts rens to be at the working class/blue collar, and/or lower middle class end, similar to local Baptists. We do have a few posher people, but not so much. The Americans who pass through tend to be higher earners. Very few of our so called investigators are well moneyed - I have been in a woman's house in the rich part of town once with missionaries and one of our sisters. I don't think she really followed through and was never baptised. We also had one investigator through with her son, who was at one of the top private schools, but again, these were exceptional.

[marc]

An interesting video about a Baptist minister:

[JuneBug12000]

I was born as a generational mormon, but I have always has a soft spot for Baptists and Anabaptists in particular. In my Sunday School lesson last week I even suggested we could use a bit more "Baptist" in our church. Maybe shout Amen on occasion when moved by the Spirit.

It got the class laughing at least.

[Thinker]

... Many, many L.D.S. leaders from Joseph's era were former Baptists or had a strong Baptist background…

Interesting.
My lds convert (ex-Baptist) friend said the lds church reminded them of their Baptist upbringing.

I think it depends on the flavour. Baptists vary a lot.

One thing I notice with the Baptists and us is that we tend to have a similar socioeconomic makeip round here. A lot of our converts rens to be at the working class/blue collar, and/or lower middle class end, similar to local Baptists. We do have a few posher people, but not so much. The Americans who pass through tend to be higher earners. Very few of our so called investigators are well moneyed - I have been in a woman's house in the rich part of town once with missionaries and one of our sisters. I don't think she really followed through and was never baptised. We also had one investigator through with her son, who was at one of the top private schools, but again, these were exceptional.

Also interesting.
My impression (looking at the general forest not so much individual trees), is Scotland & especially England consist of more educated or skeptical types. Whereas in parts of Africa & South America - less skeptical, thus the discrepancy of lds growth.

True, there are so many different types of Baptist… I liked the black southern Baptist experience. (Though it looks like they’re more white - or gray/mixed?)

[Thinker]

I was born as a generational mormon, but I have always has a soft spot for Baptists and Anabaptists in particular. In my Sunday School lesson last week I even suggested we could use a bit more "Baptist" in our church. Maybe shout Amen on occasion when moved by the Spirit.

It got the class laughing at least.

A (non-lds) black friend came to church with me - happened to be testimony meeting. As he watched random people go up to speak, he asked, “Can anyone go up - can I?” I said, “Sure.”

He rocked the house!!! He woke up all the sleepers with his enthusiasm & afterwards, people told him how refreshing he was & how they appreciated his testimony.

Similarly, I loved how a Polynesian sacrament meeting chorister would have the congregation stop mid hymn, if they weren’t singing with enough gusto - & start over to sing with more spirit.

[FoundMyEden]

An interesting video about a Baptist minister:

I shared this with some people who were baptist. They were surprised to hear me mention it. It’s a Great video.
If every denomination would preach it this way we might have a much different understanding of Christ and the BoM.

[Niemand]

... Many, many L.D.S. leaders from Joseph's era were former Baptists or had a strong Baptist background…

Interesting.
My lds convert (ex-Baptist) friend said the lds church reminded them of their Baptist upbringing.

I think it depends on the flavour. Baptists vary a lot.

One thing I notice with the Baptists and us is that we tend to have a similar socioeconomic makeip round here. A lot of our converts rens to be at the working class/blue collar, and/or lower middle class end, similar to local Baptists. We do have a few posher people, but not so much. The Americans who pass through tend to be higher earners. Very few of our so called investigators are well moneyed - I have been in a woman's house in the rich part of town once with missionaries and one of our sisters. I don't think she really followed through and was never baptised. We also had one investigator through with her son, who was at one of the top private schools, but again, these were exceptional.

Also interesting.
My impression (looking at the general forest not so much individual trees), is Scotland & especially England consist of more educated or skeptical types. Whereas in parts of Africa & South America - less skeptical, thus the discrepancy of lds growth.

True, there are so many different types of Baptist… I liked the black southern Baptist experience. (Though it looks like they’re more white - or gray/mixed?)

The stereotypical Baptist here, I think would be working class, possibly with a former drinking problem, living in a (post-)Industrial area. In reality, there are quite a few middle class ones, but it's not as up market as the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian, or Episcopalians. Scottish Quakers tend to be very middle class in contrast- too middle class, in fact, since they latch onto every fashionable political trend and often get the wrong angle on it (even when well-meaning).

The most obvious appeal of Baptists is in their name. I think they do baptism correctly - adults + full immersion - whereas a lot of big churches do not.

We've seen the emergence of Pentecostalism here, which has never taken off in a huge way like elsewhere, but has an appeal to younger people and working class that the big churches tend not to—they've eaten into the Baptists' usual convert stream. More recently, a lot of African churches, some very dubious, which reflects immigration trends, and with very few white members (although I did encounter one missionary from such a group recently so they are doing some outreach).

A lot of people in the UK are sceptical. Some educated, some not. There are a number who think they are cleverer and better informed than they are - nothing worse than sceptics who come out with stupid claims about Christians and can't back them up. (I had one tell me, for example, that the Vatican took the Apocrypha out of the Bible - he looked puzzled when I had to explain Luther did that.)

Since a lot of younger normies have no direct experience of Christianity and have seen continual, and misleading, negative propaganda on TV and film... a lot of them have a very bad impression of Christianity and its doctrines.

[Thinker]

The stereotypical Baptist here, I think would be working class, possibly with a former drinking problem, living in a (post-)Industrial area. In reality, there are quite a few middle class ones, but it's not as up market as the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian, or Episcopalians. Scottish Quakers tend to be very middle class in contrast- too middle class, in fact, since they latch onto every fashionable political trend and often get the wrong angle on it (even when well-meaning).

The most obvious appeal of Baptists is in their name. I think they do baptism correctly - adults + full immersion - whereas a lot of big churches do not.

We've seen the emergence of Pentecostalism here, which has never taken off in a huge way like elsewhere, but has an appeal to younger people and working class that the big churches tend not to—they've eaten into the Baptists' usual convert stream. More recently, a lot of African churches, some very dubious, which reflects immigration trends, and with very few white members (although I did encounter one missionary from such a group recently so they are doing some outreach).

A lot of people in the UK are sceptical. Some educated, some not. There are a number who think they are cleverer and better informed than they are - nothing worse than sceptics who come out with stupid claims about Christians and can't back them up. (I had one tell me, for example, that the Vatican took the Apocrypha out of the Bible - he looked puzzled when I had to explain Luther did that.)

Since a lot of younger normies have no direct experience of Christianity and have seen continual, and misleading, negative propaganda on TV and film... a lot of them have a very bad impression of Christianity and its doctrines.

Thanks, Niemand, you often teach me new things, or remind me of what I’ve forgotten.

Christianity has a vast, international history. I admire Martin Luther for daring to question religious authority/partial theocracy at the time, however he was also not all-knowing.

I imagine with all the immigration in the UK and other areas of Europe, culture is changing a lot, compared to past centuries. In some ways, I think it’s good to shake things up so they don’t get stale, but of course ideally it’s all done with wisdom and order, respecting the country’s people.