Church statement on Arizona abuse case

[Ado]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... abuse-case

The church put this out today. Maybe someone can enlighten me about what I am missing here, but this doesn’t make the church look very good. They themselves say that it took 2 years for the abuser to be excommunicated, and that the bishop was not told to report the abuse to law enforcement. It’s great they told him to encourage the abuser and the mother of the victim to report the abuse. But when they didn’t report it, neither did he… and it took 2 years for them to excommunicate him…so what am I missing here that vindicates the church in this? It seems he is as guilty as the mother is for not reporting what he knew.

[Atrasado]

This is going to devastate the Church. Enrollment is down overall at Church schools for fall. It's going to go lower still and things like this are a big part of the reason why.

[Atrasado]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... abuse-case

The church put this out today. Maybe someone can enlighten me about what I am missing here, but this doesn’t make the church look very good. They themselves say that it took 2 years for the abuser to be excommunicated, and that the bishop was not told to report the abuse to law enforcement. It’s great they told him to encourage the abuser and the mother of the victim to report the abuse. But when they didn’t report it, neither did he… and it took 2 years for them to excommunicate him…so what am I missing here that vindicates the church in this? It seems he is as guilty as the mother is for not reporting what he knew.

The lies and half-truths in that piece of propaganda are so sickening I can't stand it anymore.

For example, they don't need the permission of the person confessing in Arizona, all we need to say is it isn't required by our Church's Doctrine that the confessor not be reported. What the Church's PR people wrote clearly shows that protecting the molester isn't required by doctrine because we say that protecting the child is our TOP PRIORITY. Since we didn't report the abuse protecting the child clearly isn't our top priority, but our words make it simple to see that based on doctrine we should have reported.

The unmitigated lie that the hotline is to protect the abused children is outrageous. The hotline is to protect the Church's coffers and name and it's for nothing else.

After all, no hotline is needed. All that has to be done is to put it in the handbook that reporting is 100% mandatory, even in municipalities that require confidentiality. This could be done by requiring any person coming in to speak with the bishop in such locations to sign a waiver of confidentiality in cases of child abuse. But we'll never do that because the general leaders don't want these cases to go public which means we don't want them going to the police because our leaders care more about reputation and money than they do about children.

[AZRob]

The lies and half-truths in that piece of propaganda are so sickening I can't stand it anymore.

For example, they don't need the permission of the confessor in Arizona, all we need to say is it isn't required by our Church's Doctrine that the confessor not be reported. What the Church's PR people wrote clearly shows that it isn't because we say that protecting the child is our TOP PRIORITY. However, if since we didn't report the abuse protecting the child clearly isn't our top priority, but our words make it simple to see that doctrinally we should have reported.

The unmitigated lie that the hotline is to protect the abused children is outrageous. The hotline is to protect the Church's coffers and name and it's for nothing else.

After all, no hotline is needed. All that has to be done is to put something in the handbook that reporting is 100% mandatory, even in municipalities that require confidentiality. This could be done by requiring any person coming in to confess in such locations to sign a waiver of confidentiality in cases of child abuse. But we'll never do that because the general leaders don't want these cases to go public which means we don't want them going to the police.

I agree with all this. It is effectively the church's position that it is reasonable and necessary to protect the confessor more than it is reasonable to ask bishops to be mandatory reporters. Arizona statutes are clear that the only exemption from clergy reporting to police is if the church requires that there be no reporting, in other words that it is both "reasonable and necessary" (in the church's view) that the reporting never takes place. I see the newsroom response as pouncing on inaccuracies that don't really exist in the story in order to divert attention from the obvious, which is that if the church wants mandatory reporting of abuse to take place, it will happen.

By necessity, the church's stance puts the rights of the confessor ahead of the safety of the children. My wife and I had to stretch to find a way that the help line protects children in any way. No, that help line is for one thing and one thing only. In the case at hand, it gave the bishops plausible deniability regarding their reporting requirements as well as a way to invoke attorney-client privilege.

[dewajack]

The church is a corporation, it shouldn't surprise anyone when it acts like one. A corporation likes popularity, loathes scandal and criticism, bolsters the bottom line, and has a strong legal team in place to minimize liability and embarrassment.

As if there hasn't already been enough, there will be more and more reasons for people to stop idolizing the church or its past and/or present leaders.

The Lord hasn't abandoned the church, nor are its ordinances fruitless, the expanded inspired canon is still being printed and distributed, and it offers an opportunity for people to serve and rub shoulders with others they'd rather not be around. All of which has been a blessing in my life, and points to Him, who is the keeper of the gate, and He employs no servant there.

[Sunain]

The church is a corporation, it shouldn't surprise anyone when it acts like one. A corporation likes popularity, loathes scandal and criticism, bolsters the bottom line, and has a strong legal team in place to minimize liability and embarrassment.

That is the root of all the problems now with the church. It acts like a business, not a church.

[Luke]

The church is a corporation, it shouldn't surprise anyone when it acts like one. A corporation likes popularity, loathes scandal and criticism, bolsters the bottom line, and has a strong legal team in place to minimize liability and embarrassment.

As if there hasn't already been enough, there will be more and more reasons for people to stop idolizing the church or its past and/or present leaders.

The Lord hasn't abandoned the church, nor are its ordinances fruitless, the expanded inspired canon is still being printed and distributed, and it offers an opportunity for people to serve and rub shoulders with others they'd rather not be around. All of which has been a blessing in my life, and points to Him, who is the keeper of the gate, and He employs no servant there.

You absolutely hit the nail on the head there. I agreed with everything you said. Thank you.

[Chip]

The church is a corporation, it shouldn't surprise anyone when it acts like one. A corporation likes popularity, loathes scandal and criticism, bolsters the bottom line, and has a strong legal team in place to minimize liability and embarrassment.

As if there hasn't already been enough, there will be more and more reasons for people to stop idolizing the church or its past and/or present leaders.

The Lord hasn't abandoned the church, nor are its ordinances fruitless, the expanded inspired canon is still being printed and distributed, and it offers an opportunity for people to serve and rub shoulders with others they'd rather not be around. All of which has been a blessing in my life, and points to Him, who is the keeper of the gate, and He employs no servant there.

You absolutely hit the nail on the head there. I agreed with everything you said. Thank you.

But, does it still really point to Him?

I think with the lies that have been swallowed over COVID, it is now something that is not even healthy to be a part of. The members have, en masse, abandoned timely scripture that we should be understanding right now, and they have allowed themselves to be led by men who have been following the secret combination. The church has become a bubble of falsity on so many levels. I cannot recommend it, anymore. I used to be a very zealous missionary. The church is just another part of the swamp, these days.

[Luke]

The church is a corporation, it shouldn't surprise anyone when it acts like one. A corporation likes popularity, loathes scandal and criticism, bolsters the bottom line, and has a strong legal team in place to minimize liability and embarrassment.

As if there hasn't already been enough, there will be more and more reasons for people to stop idolizing the church or its past and/or present leaders.

The Lord hasn't abandoned the church, nor are its ordinances fruitless, the expanded inspired canon is still being printed and distributed, and it offers an opportunity for people to serve and rub shoulders with others they'd rather not be around. All of which has been a blessing in my life, and points to Him, who is the keeper of the gate, and He employs no servant there.

You absolutely hit the nail on the head there. I agreed with everything you said. Thank you.

But, does it still really point to Him?

I think with the lies that have been swallowed over COVID, it is now something that is not even healthy to be a part of. The members have, en masse, abandoned timely scripture that we should be understanding right now, and they have allowed themselves to be led by men who have been following the secret combination. The church has become a bubble of falsity on so many levels. I cannot recommend it, anymore. I used to be a very zealous missionary. The church is just another part of the swamp, these days.

The institutional Church as a corporation doesn't, but the three things that he listed as pointing to Christ (the ordinances, the printed Scriptures, and the venue for association) do point to Christ.

I'm certainly not one to defend the Church (I'm sure you know why), but I won't just attack it blindly either.

I was mainly agreeing with his pointing out of the corporate behaviour.

[spiritMan]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... abuse-case

The church put this out today. Maybe someone can enlighten me about what I am missing here, but this doesn’t make the church look very good. They themselves say that it took 2 years for the abuser to be excommunicated, and that the bishop was not told to report the abuse to law enforcement. It’s great they told him to encourage the abuser and the mother of the victim to report the abuse. But when they didn’t report it, neither did he… and it took 2 years for them to excommunicate him…so what am I missing here that vindicates the church in this? It seems he is as guilty as the mother is for not reporting what he knew.

I'm okay with the Church not mandatory reporting criminal crimes. Just like attorney-client privileges, I firmly believe in that with Church, ecclesestical-parishener's privileges.

What I'm NOT okay with is doing nothing. If a person reports sexual abuse, the Church should immediately being disciplinary proceedings. That would have solved a good portion of this.

It would state
1: We believe in the privileges of unfettered confessions without legal punishments (which I think is extremely important, I can explain more on why if necessary)
2: We believe in a standard of moral conduct that if breached we will immediately begin expulsion of that individual from our community.

But this is what the "just love everyone" gets you. Remember it's not excommunication any more it's "withdrawal of membership". When you soften the words, don't be surprised when you get a bunch of unrepentent murderers, adulterers, sexual abusers, etc. in your midst.

[spiritMan]

I like this line:
"The Church has issued a strong response because this is a topic where there can be no mincing of words, no hint of apathy and no tolerance for any suggestion that we are neglectful or not doing enough on the issue of child abuse."

ROFLOLLOLOLOL.

The Church thinks what they wrote is a "strong response". Oh my goodness.

[Cruiserdude]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... abuse-case

The church put this out today. Maybe someone can enlighten me about what I am missing here, but this doesn’t make the church look very good. They themselves say that it took 2 years for the abuser to be excommunicated, and that the bishop was not told to report the abuse to law enforcement. It’s great they told him to encourage the abuser and the mother of the victim to report the abuse. But when they didn’t report it, neither did he… and it took 2 years for them to excommunicate him…so what am I missing here that vindicates the church in this? It seems he is as guilty as the mother is for not reporting what he knew.

I'm okay with the Church not mandatory reporting criminal crimes. Just like attorney-client privileges, I firmly believe in that with Church, ecclesestical-parishener's privileges.

What I'm NOT okay with is doing nothing. If a person reports sexual abuse, the Church should immediately being disciplinary proceedings. That would have solved a good portion of this.

It would state
1: We believe in the privileges of unfettered confessions without legal punishments (which I think is extremely important, I can explain more on why if necessary)
2: We believe in a standard of moral conduct that if breached we will immediately begin expulsion of that individual from our community.

But this is what the "just love everyone" gets you. Remember it's not excommunication any more it's "withdrawal of membership". When you soften the words, don't be surprised when you get a bunch of unrepentent murderers, adulterers, sexual abusers, etc. in your midst.

Look at us! Look at how virtuously we can signal! Look at how we obey and love and honor Babylonian law and morals!
It's such a facade...

[Mamabear]

The following isn’t true.
“Encourage victims, family members and perpetrators to seek professional counseling and to report abuse to the authorities themselves.
Directly report the abuse to authorities, regardless of legal exemptions from reporting requirements, when it is known that a child is in imminent danger. The help line routinely reports cases of child abuse to authorities.”

They don’t report to authorities or encourage bishops to call the authorities.

[Chip]

I like this line:
"The Church has issued a strong response because this is a topic where there can be no mincing of words, no hint of apathy and no tolerance for any suggestion that we are neglectful or not doing enough on the issue of child abuse."

ROFLOLLOLOLOL.

The Church thinks what they wrote is a "strong response". Oh my goodness.

We're in a time of "virtual" everything. Great effort is made to demonstrate appearances, while quiet actions indicate reality. All out of phase, all the time. I can't wait for all this insanity to stop.

[tribrac]

Can't wait for the inevitable conference talk that makes it sound like we are all abusers, even if we don't know it.

Followed by more administrative changes.

[spiritMan]

Can't wait for the inevitable conference talk that makes it sound like we are all abusers, even if we don't know it.

Followed by more administrative changes.

Well, except certain classes of people. They are more holier than everyone else . . .and you and I ain't in that class.

[BKColt]

The latest Official Statement makes my head and heart hurt. It may be time to fire the PR or legal firm that put out this response. Ugh!

[spiritMan]

The latest Official Statement makes my head and heart hurt. It may be time to fire the PR or legal firm that put out this response. Ugh!

This is such a trite phrase:
"The Savior Jesus Christ wants us all to do better and be better."



Come on guys. That's what you say. You can tell this was written by a bunch of woketards. It's the a riff off the "when you know better, you do better" crap the wokists in the Church parrot.

For all that blather, they can not even quote the most relevant scripture about this? Oh that's right we are not a religious organization, actually quoting from the Lord Himself, b/c it comes from the Bible, just simply won't do . . .we have to spew a bunch of blather.

It REALLY shows where their priorities are at when the Scripture from Christ Himself is left out of this entire press release.

Oh we will tell everyone and their brother "we preach of Christ, we talk of Christ, etc. etc. etc." When what we are REALLY good at doing . . .
is talking about talking about Christ.

Quote from the Word of God, when related to children and abuse . . .nah we can't have that now can we!

[Chip]

The latest Official Statement makes my head and heart hurt. It may be time to fire the PR or legal firm that put out this response. Ugh!

This is such a trite phrase:
"The Savior Jesus Christ wants us all to do better and be better."



Come on guys. That's what you say. You can tell this was written by a bunch of woketards. It's the a riff off the "when you know better, you do better" crap the wokists in the Church parrot.

For all that blather, they can not even quote the most relevant scripture about this? Oh that's right we are not a religious organization, actually quoting from the Lord Himself, b/c it comes from the Bible, just simply won't do . . .we have to spew a bunch of blather.

It REALLY shows where their priorities are at when the Scripture from Christ Himself is left out of this entire press release.

Oh we will tell everyone and their brother "we preach of Christ, we talk of Christ, etc. etc. etc." When what we are REALLY good at doing . . .
is talking about talking about Christ.

Quote from the Word of God, when related to children and abuse . . .nah we can't have that now can we!

And this crap is heading in ONE direction, like an arrow. It's just going to get worse, because there's no force to correct it.

[Joan7]

In my own case, not involving sexual abuse, that help line is for one purpose... to have the Church legal department warn the Bishop against helping in any way, due to potential legal problems if they do.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and its leaders, and now a lot of lower level church leadership, have blood on their hands because of this evil and abominable addition to the church structure.

[Lizzy60]

The latest Official Statement makes my head and heart hurt. It may be time to fire the PR or legal firm that put out this response. Ugh!

Nothing is published from the Church Newsroom that doesn’t have the approval of at least some of the Q15. This is not a rogue statement. Church Newsroom is very official. If RMN speaks for the Lord, the Church Newsroom speaks for RMN. Does anyone really believe that RMN would allow something to go out without his approval?
No. He would not. He is in charge.

[InfoWarrior82]

The latest Official Statement makes my head and heart hurt. It may be time to fire the PR or legal firm that put out this response. Ugh!

Or maybe we can get a quote from Jesus Christ? Is that too much to ask from prophets of God?

[Chip]

In my own case, not involving sexual abuse, that help line is for one purpose... to have the Church legal department warn the Bishop against helping in any way, due to potential legal problems if they do.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and its leaders, and now a lot of lower level church leadership, have blood on their hands because of this evil and abominable addition to the church structure.

Right. I wonder how many bishops kind of feel like chumps when stuff like this comes up and the church tells them what to do and they understand that they must do it in a way where it seems it was their own idea, when it might conflict with what they thought should be done. Lawyers can be mightily intimidating and oppressive.

[h_p]

The first thing they do will be to rename the help line, I'm sure. Something with a longer, more official-sounding title will send a clear message to the world.

What I don't get is how this bishop felt there was a need to report this to the police, which he could easily have done, but instead left that to the abuser and his wife, who didn't have much interaction with the church or the leaders. And he also must have felt the children were still at risk, since he was urging the father to move out. And then the excommunication (2 years later!), indicated they believed he was unrepentant, and therefore, STILL a risk.

So what, exactly, caused the bishop to sit on his hands all that time?

And on the other hand, what incentive did the church's help line have to keep this covered up? How could the church be damaged by reporting an inactive child abuser? I mean, if he was a stake president, or even a nursery worker, I can see that, but what the heck?

I just don't see what anybody felt they would gain by what they claimed they did or didn't do here.

[Joan7]

The first thing they do will be to rename the help line, I'm sure. Something with a longer, more official-sounding title will send a clear message to the world.

What I don't get is how this bishop felt there was a need to report this to the police, which he could easily have done, but instead left that to the abuser and his wife, who didn't have much interaction with the church or the leaders. And he also must have felt the children were still at risk, since he was urging the father to move out. And then the excommunication (2 years later!), indicated they believed he was unrepentant, and therefore, STILL a risk.

So what, exactly, caused the bishop to sit on his hands all that time?

And on the other hand, what incentive did the church's help line have to keep this covered up? How could the church be damaged by reporting an inactive child abuser? I mean, if he was a stake president, or even a nursery worker, I can see that, but what the heck?

I just don't see what anybody felt they would gain by what they claimed they did or didn't do here.

They told my Bishop to not help under any circumstances. It turned what might have been a manageable situation into a nightmare, where I and my children had to flee the family home for many weeks. We had a member guest, who became very abusive, and downright wicked when asked to leave due to the abuse. Thankfully, in spite of the Church, my Bishop was able to talk with her on the phone a number of times. It was he who finally called me and told me the person had been arrested, and we could come home. It was absolutely awful. The Church abandoned us due to fear of lawsuit!! I remember the early Apostles in ancient and latter days, being willing to risk it all, even their very lives.

Where is the honorable man to lead God's people, with mighty faith, miracles, healing? We need boldness and righteous power, directed by God. Right now, that is on the individual level, but I look forward to the day, when the scattered flock is gathered under the direction of the Lord's Servant.