Ready to Take the Joseph Smith was NOT a Polygamist Challenge??

[The Red Pill]

I know what some of you are thinking, and I admit that's exactly what I was thinking just a few weeks ago...

However, after taking a deep deep dive, investing over 100 hours of research from the links off the "Best Sources Showing Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" thread. I personally, have come away with the FIRM CONVICTION...that he was NOT. ABSOLUTELY NOT A POLYGAMIST!

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

To me it was so refreshing to find out for myself that Joseph is who he said he was...and Brigham was not.
This is NOT something you can figure out in a few minutes, it will take an investment of your time...and AN OPEN MIND TO FIND THE TRUTH, irregardless of where it takes you. However, brace yourself, because this is NOT the popular position, so be ready to take some heat and resistance...I already have.

Up for the challenge???

For starters, I encourage you to review the material from the following:
Hemlock Knots: https://hemlockknots.com/
Rob Fotheringham: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCds7RV ... pqXJvT3Uhw
Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy (3 volumes): https://restorationbookstore.org/pages/ ... amy-online
Joseph Smith's Monogamy: https://hemlockknots.com/wp-content/upl ... e-2015.pdf

[Luke]

Ready to damn yourself by rejecting plural marriage!!!!

For me that’s what this DECEPTION is.

Been down this hole before, thank God that He brought me out.

[Baurak Ale]

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

This is really a false dichotomy. It should be like this:

Either:

(1) Joseph and Hyrum made public denials and Emma spent her widowed years lying (though not always consistently) to protect her version of her husband's legacy while gaining the respect of the gentiles around her; or
(2) Brigham and scores of other witnesses—mormons and non-mormons alike—all conspired to testify of Joseph's involvement in polygamy and suffer all manner of persecution (you know, the kind Christ said believers would suffer) at the hands of the world to defend a lie.


One of these fails Ocham's razor. Moreover, immersing yourself in one point of view long enough will inevitably lead you to be convinced unless sufficiently guarded by a commitment to the opposite view. For instance, if you were ambivalent on an issue going into a section of a bookstore espousing only one view, you are likely to be convinced of the one view by the time you leave that section.

Sophistic arguments are then like the birds that eat up seeds not planted in any soil (they "fell along the path," or were "going with the flow"). If the spirit has planted that seed in ready soil, however, it is protected from the birds.

That is like my testimony of Joseph's restoration of the Patriarchal Order of Marriage. It has been planted deep in the soil of my heart by the spirit. I do not desire to undid the seed to play badminton with it in a sophistic "challenge." I have read much of those arguments already and they all have ammunition for their story, but it's not all the data that exists.

But I have the best data of all: the witness of the Holy Ghost to my soul directly. I cannot deny that but I can testify of it for those here who are somewhere between the wayward path and the good soil.

[The Red Pill]

Ready to damn yourself by rejecting plural marriage!!!!

For me that’s what this DECEPTION is.

Been down this hole before, thank God that He brought me out.

What an EMOTIONAL response....

Damn myself for doing intelligent, open minded research??

I said it before, it’s a case of who is lying and who is not...either Brigham or Joseph, Hyrum and Emma.

I honestly don't think you went down the hole deep enough.

[The Red Pill]

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

This is really a false dichotomy. It should be like this:

Either:

(1) Joseph and Hyrum made public denials and Emma spent her widowed years lying (though not always consistently) to protect her version of her husband's legacy while gaining the respect of the gentiles around her; or
(2) Brigham and scores of other witnesses—mormons and non-mormons alike—all conspired to testify of Joseph's involvement in polygamy and suffer all manner of persecution (you know, the kind Christ said believers would suffer) at the hands of the world to defend a lie.


One of these fails Ocham's razor. Moreover, immersing yourself in one point of view long enough will inevitably lead you to be convinced unless sufficiently guarded by a commitment to the opposite view. For instance, if you were ambivalent on an issue going into a section of a bookstore espousing only one view, you are likely to be convinced of the one view by the time you leave that section.

Sophistic arguments are then like the birds that eat up seeds not planted in any soil (they "fell along the path," or were "going with the flow"). If the spirit has planted that seed in ready soil, however, it is protected from the birds.

That is like my testimony of Joseph's restoration of the Patriarchal Order of Marriage. It has been planted deep in the soil of my heart by the spirit. I do not desire to undid the seed to play badminton with it in a sophistic "challenge." I have read much of those arguments already and they all have ammunition for their story, but it's not all the data that exists.

But I have the best data of all: the witness of the Holy Ghost to my soul directly. I cannot deny that but I can testify of it for those here who are somewhere between the wayward path and the good soil.

It's a false dichotomy...because YOU say it is????

Seriously????

It's NOT a false dichotomy...take away ALL the methods and analysis of 2nd, 3rd hand accounts, time since the account, credibility of the witness,
all the stuff in the weeds ...what's left???

2 choices:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma are lying
(2) Brigham is lying

It's that simple!

[SeekWisdom]

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

This is really a false dichotomy. It should be like this:

Either:

(1) Joseph and Hyrum made public denials and Emma spent her widowed years lying (though not always consistently) to protect her version of her husband's legacy while gaining the respect of the gentiles around her; or
(2) Brigham and scores of other witnesses—mormons and non-mormons alike—all conspired to testify of Joseph's involvement in polygamy and suffer all manner of persecution (you know, the kind Christ said believers would suffer) at the hands of the world to defend a lie.


One of these fails Ocham's razor. Moreover, immersing yourself in one point of view long enough will inevitably lead you to be convinced unless sufficiently guarded by a commitment to the opposite view. For instance, if you were ambivalent on an issue going into a section of a bookstore espousing only one view, you are likely to be convinced of the one view by the time you leave that section.

Sophistic arguments are then like the birds that eat up seeds not planted in any soil (they "fell along the path," or were "going with the flow"). If the spirit has planted that seed in ready soil, however, it is protected from the birds.

That is like my testimony of Joseph's restoration of the Patriarchal Order of Marriage. It has been planted deep in the soil of my heart by the spirit. I do not desire to undid the seed to play badminton with it in a sophistic "challenge." I have read much of those arguments already and they all have ammunition for their story, but it's not all the data that exists.

But I have the best data of all: the witness of the Holy Ghost to my soul directly. I cannot deny that but I can testify of it for those here who are somewhere between the wayward path and the good soil.

Just because someone or a people suffer persecution doesn’t mean it was because of righteousness and following the Lord. I think most would agree that the persecution given to King Noah (and the wicked priests)in being hunted, shunned, burned, etc was not due to their practicing righteousness by following the Lord’s law of polygamy. The Book of Mormon is clear, these were wicked men. And seemingly types and foreshadows of Brigham Young and his wicked priests.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Seriously Jacob is describing the pro polygamists who seek to justify their whoredoms and abominations by using the past people in scripture to justify themselves.

Jacob 2:23

But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I only share the link to my website to highlight the "Resources" section at the bottom. This includes a substantial amount of info to ponder:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/polygamy-adultery

Here's the list of Resources, hyperlinks are in the essay:

Book: Joseph Smith Revealed: A Faithful Telling: Exploring an Alternate Polygamy Narrative

Book: The Secret Chamber: Spiritual Wifery and the Doctrine of Christ

Book: The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum

132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy (YouTube channel)

Book: Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy: (Volume 1) (Volume 2) (Volume 3)

Joseph Smith Papers, Original D&C 101

The Irreconcilable Voices in D&C 132

Hyrum Smith’s writings on polygamy crossed out in the Joseph Smith papers

Last testimony of Sister Emma

Mormon Polygamy Timeline of Events

Book: The Apostasy of the LDS Church was Prophesied, But the End is Not Yet

Book: Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men: Tradition in Modern Mormonism

Orson Pratt, first public discourse discussing polygamy, Aug. 29, 1852

The Flaming Sword of Death, Shanhi Buddy

Mormon Polygamy Documents

Joseph Smith - Honest Seer or Lying Polygamist?

Pure Mormonism: Why I’m abandoning polygamy

Young Apologist 101: lamp-shading

Podcast Episode 2: Of Demigods and Dark Knights

In Defense of Joseph: Sarah Pratt Revisited

In Defense of Joseph: LDS Statement on Polygamy

Matt Palmer: A Tale of Two (or Three) Josephs, and the Magic Sperm Theory

Exonerate Joseph: He fought polygamy? (timeline)

Book: The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum

132 Problems: Revisiting Polygamy (YT Channel)

Whitney Horning Video: Removing the Stain of Polygamy from the Restoration / PDF version w/ citations

Greg Hymas blog: Polygamy, Plural Marriage and Spiritual Wifery

Jacob’s Journey, Awakening to the false narrative of polygamy

A Proposed Reinterpretation of Jacob 2:30 (My opinion, raising up seed is through procreation and literal offspring.)

[gradles21]

[Reluctant Watchman]

On the forum maybe... but just this past weekend I had a chat with a ward member I met while hiking. He was convinced the church narrative was correct. "Joseph didn't want to do it... but he followed the Lord's commands." I think it's more akin to horseshit than a dead horse.

[The Red Pill]

Many have, sadly, completely abandoned the gospel because they think Joseph Smith is a pervert and liar.

As long as there are people out there that falsely believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist...it's worth beating the horse.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Many have, sadly, completely abandoned the gospel because they think Joseph Smith is a pervert and liar.

As long as there are people out there that falsely believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist...it's worth beating the horse.

Saying Joseph Smith was a polygamist is literally evil speaking of the Lords anointed!

[FoxMammaWisdom]

(2) Brigham was lying

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Ready to damn yourself by rejecting plural marriage!!!!

For me that’s what this DECEPTION is.

Been down this hole before, thank God that He brought me out.

It's good to know Joseph and Hyrum damned themselves. I honestly do not know the origins of LDS polygamy, maybe Joseph introduced it in some form, or maybe not.? However, at the end of his life, he completely rejected and condemned it. Not even BY revisionist history can change that truth. And from the looks of it, Joseph and Hyrum were clearly ready. lol

[blitzinstripes]

I think I'll just be over here baling some hay and waiting for Joseph to come back for his old farm.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Ready to damn yourself by rejecting plural marriage!!!!

Yes.

[Christianlee]

In 1848 Catherine Lewis a Mormon dissenter wrote the following regarding Helen Mar Kimball:

“The Twelve took Joseph's wives after his death. Kimball and Young took most of them; the daughter of Kimball was one of Joseph's wives. I heard her say to her mother, "I will never be sealed to my Father, and I would never have been sealed to Joseph, had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, I will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must. Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young." The Apostles said they only took Joseph's wives to raise up children, carry them through to the next world, there deliver them up to him, by so doing they should gain his approbation, &c. (Catherine Lewis, Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons; Giving an Account of their Iniquities, 19)."

This statement was written before Doctrine and Covenants 132 was made public. There would have been no reason for Catherine Lewis to have known about Helen Mar Kimball’s situation if Helen Mar hadn’t actually made this statement in Catherine’s presence. This statement by Catherine Lewis would have been made without any pressure from anyone so I believe it is the best evidence Joseph Smith was practicing some form of plural marriage. If Catherine’s statement had been written after 1852 it could be disregarded, but it was made in 1848.

[FrankOne]

Ready to damn yourself by rejecting plural marriage!!!!

For me that’s what this DECEPTION is.

Been down this hole before, thank God that He brought me out.

What an EMOTIONAL response....

Damn myself for doing intelligent, open minded research??

I said it before, it’s a case of who is lying and who is not...either Brigham or Joseph, Hyrum and Emma.

I honestly don't think you went down the hole deep enough.

I went down the hole about 20 yrs ago. I can't say I know anything because I could only read history.....I wasn't there.
My take was the opposite. Joseph lied in public for obvious reasons (to me). Emma hated polygamy with a vengeance that can't be measured. Off the charts hate. So... when she gave the nod to the reorganized group with son in tow, she happily denied it all. My take was she 'denied' it with a personal justification which was that she never believed in what Joseph was doing . She had chosen to deny what Joseph had told her and was also practicing because she only knew extreme pain from it. I've seen that reaction a thousand times in my life.... A woman that is traumatized due to her own personal reaction which then creates a false reality as a conclusion.

My studies went on over a few years and I studied the countless accounts of those that 'knew' Joseph practiced poly due to their own personal experience. I couldn't believe that they ALL lied. Those accounts were contemporaneous with the times....what would motivate them to even come up with the idea ? That idea would have been preposterous to the average individual at that time.

I really don't care whether he did or didn't...so this is just a story of my studying. 20 yrs ago, it did matter to me but now, I've been so 'red pilled' that I just look at it all like a novel. Everything except God and his son Jesus Christ is completely irrelevant to me.

the only portion of the argument that I do maintain is that in the future, as indicated by many prophecies and as history bears out, there will be a great shortage of men and a bunch of women that will be abandoned which will eventually result in polygamy . It's just a natural course of humans. Single women with children in a time of starvation changes people. Married women will open their hearts to starving women and children. Men will bear a lot of responsibility. It isn't something that will be fun for men .

Our current mindset on this subject will completely change in the future. We will not be the same people during/after war and collapse.

[Chris]

I know what some of you are thinking, and I admit that's exactly what I was thinking just a few weeks ago...

However, after taking a deep deep dive, investing over 100 hours of research from the links off the "Best Sources Showing Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" thread. I personally, have come away with the FIRM CONVICTION...that he was NOT. ABSOLUTELY NOT A POLYGAMIST!

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

To me it was so refreshing to find out for myself that Joseph is who he said he was...and Brigham was not.
This is NOT something you can figure out in a few minutes, it will take an investment of your time...and AN OPEN MIND TO FIND THE TRUTH, irregardless of where it takes you. However, brace yourself, because this is NOT the popular position, so be ready to take some heat and resistance...I already have.

Up for the challenge???

For starters, I encourage you to review the material from the following:
Hemlock Knots: https://hemlockknots.com/
Rob Fotheringham: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCds7RV ... pqXJvT3Uhw
Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy (3 volumes): https://restorationbookstore.org/pages/ ... amy-online
Joseph Smith's Monogamy: https://hemlockknots.com/wp-content/upl ... e-2015.pdf

Again amazed people are actually falling for this crap. No offense but it is crazy. It is like coming up with a theory that Joseph Smith wasnt his real name. His real name is " Joe Hoe Foe Snow Blow Shiz" I have proof that is his real name. I really do. First you need to just ignore every person who has ever lived that called him " Joseph Smith" because they are all liars and have plotted to change his name. Disregard his name written in his moms bible because she is a liar and a scoundrel as well. Someone over heard Emma say this is his real name and everyone else is damnable liars. They are all apostates of a fallen name club and they have tried to change history. It is prophesied that a great prophet will come forth in the last days to correct his name though. It will stand once again true and everlasting as " Joe Hoe Foe Snow Blow Shiz" If anyone doubts me, i ca prove it. The evidence is overwhelming....

That how crazy this theory is, the expereinces and stories recorded by reputable people are overwhelming and amazing. This guy who is coming up with this stuff is lead by the devil.

[marc]

Jesus: If you are not born of water and of the spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Brigham: If you do not have lots of wives, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Baurak Ale]

Jesus: If you are not born of water and of the spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Brigham: If you do not have lots of wives, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Also Jesus: in the kingdom of God, those who bury the talents I choose to give them (including wives and children) will have them taken away and given to others who were faithful over a few things that they may be rulers over many.

Also Brigham: If you are not born of water and of the spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[marc]

Also Jesus: in the kingdom of God, those who bury the talents I choose to give them (including wives and children) will have them taken away and given to others who were faithful over a few things that they may be rulers over many.

Interesting interpretation.

[Bronco73idi]

Let the fun begin!

I’m glad all of you who are anti polygamy think god has changed since 1000bc……

Next you are going to talk about a Davidic servant, a servant who is liken unto a polygamist.

[FrankOne]

Let the fun begin!

I’m glad all of you who are anti polygamy think god has changed since 1000bc……

Next you are going to talk about a Davidic servant, a servant who is liken unto a polygamist.

the DS being a polygamist?
that would certainly filter out 95% of the current church members on that point alone.
Hm.
I can see it now..... Blasphemer! Stone the Blasphemer! Stone him!

[The Red Pill]

I know what some of you are thinking, and I admit that's exactly what I was thinking just a few weeks ago...

However, after taking a deep deep dive, investing over 100 hours of research from the links off the "Best Sources Showing Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" thread. I personally, have come away with the FIRM CONVICTION...that he was NOT. ABSOLUTELY NOT A POLYGAMIST!

Much can be debated about sources, methods and dozens of other criteria....But...when you really boil it down it comes down to this:

Either:

(1) Joseph, Hyrum and Emma were ALL lying
(2) Brigham was lying

That's the long and the short of it.

To me it was so refreshing to find out for myself that Joseph is who he said he was...and Brigham was not.
This is NOT something you can figure out in a few minutes, it will take an investment of your time...and AN OPEN MIND TO FIND THE TRUTH, irregardless of where it takes you. However, brace yourself, because this is NOT the popular position, so be ready to take some heat and resistance...I already have.

Up for the challenge???

For starters, I encourage you to review the material from the following:
Hemlock Knots: https://hemlockknots.com/
Rob Fotheringham: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCds7RV ... pqXJvT3Uhw
Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy (3 volumes): https://restorationbookstore.org/pages/ ... amy-online
Joseph Smith's Monogamy: https://hemlockknots.com/wp-content/upl ... e-2015.pdf

Again amazed people are actually falling for this crap. No offense but it is crazy. It is like coming up with a theory that Joseph Smith wasnt his real name. His real name is " Joe Hoe Foe Snow Blow Shiz" I have proof that is his real name. I really do. First you need to just ignore every person who has ever lived that called him " Joseph Smith" because they are all liars and have plotted to change his name. Disregard his name written in his moms bible because she is a liar and a scoundrel as well. Someone over heard Emma say this is his real name and everyone else is damnable liars. They are all apostates of a fallen name club and they have tried to change history. It is prophesied that a great prophet will come forth in the last days to correct his name though. It will stand once again true and everlasting as " Joe Hoe Foe Snow Blow Shiz" If anyone doubts me, i ca prove it. The evidence is overwhelming....

That how crazy this theory is, the expereinces and stories recorded by reputable people are overwhelming and amazing. This guy who is coming up with this stuff is lead by the devil.

You need to dig much deeper. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand stories are often decades old, often from very questionable sources, who have a known history of bias, lying and/or embellishment. Calling them overwhelming and amazing shows your ignorance.

It's not a guy, it's an entire movement of people who are willing to put aside their preconceived narrative long enough to do a serious study of the actual historical record.

Read the 3 volume series for free, then come back for a discussion.