Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
Where are my concubines?
- Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?
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Re: Where are my concubines?
I don't know where you're getting your intel, but there's no truth to this claim. The 1830 Book of Mormon says that the commandment was given to "Father Lehi," just like the current addition does. I just double checked.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pmCheck the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pmCheck the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
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Re: Where are my concubines?
That wasn't the part I was contesting. It was and remains the lack of the word "concubine" in that passage. You want it to be there. But it isn't.Alexander wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 2:36 pmLmaoArtaxerxes wrote: ↑September 17th, 2022, 9:47 pmUnfortunately, that's not the only thing he was talking about. You're forcing an interpretation on the text that just isn't there.Alexander wrote: ↑September 17th, 2022, 9:22 am“I can’t read.”Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 17th, 2022, 12:23 am
"This thing that doesn't actually talk about the thing we're talking about is OBVIOUSLY meaning whatever it is I want it to say."
It literally says the Nephites indulged in polygamy and concubinage, and then Jacob calls it slavery.
You know what "captive" means Franklin. Don't play dumb.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Except the dancing girls were looking for husbands as was common among the Israelites.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... usalem.htm
It was also how the tribe of Benjamin was replenished without the other tribes breaking their oath in saying they would not give their daughters to them in marriage (judges 21)
- Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
- Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Follow the link Artaxerxes provided and click on the 240 link after "father" and it will show you the 1830 version.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:47 amThe link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
- Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?
You're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:55 amThe manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:47 amThe link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
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Re: Where are my concubines?
And you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:10 amYou're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:55 amThe manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:47 amThe link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
I'm not assuming that at all, but I would expect his continuing involvement in the work. I agree that there would be a lot of errors, but I would think that we would both agree that neither one of us could say conclusively whether Joseph made a correction.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:34 amAnd you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:10 amYou're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:55 amThe manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:47 am
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?
The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.
It is quite interesting that he would make a mistake that just happened to be dead center of the polygamy issue. I don't believe in coincidences.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
There were thousands of errors in the 1830 edition. If this were the only change, that would be one thing. But since we know there were thousands of errors, this is just another one of many.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:41 amI'm not assuming that at all, but I would expect his continuing involvement in the work. I agree that there would be a lot of errors, but I would think that we would both agree that neither one of us could say conclusively whether Joseph made a correction.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:34 amAnd you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 11:10 amYou're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:55 am
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.
The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.
It is quite interesting that he would make a mistake that just happened to be dead center of the polygamy issue. I don't believe in coincidences.
- FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?
good catch. It could be a general term meaning "ancestors" . A teaching of tradition.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pmCheck the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Yeah, it shows that the original word was father, not fathers, in the printers manuscript.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 10:51 amFollow the link Artaxerxes provided and click on the 240 link after "father" and it will show you the 1830 version.
It also says the command was given to "Father Lehi" in the 1830 Book of Mormon as I said. The discrepancy you are trying to show doesn't exist.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
If the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Do we know of ANY changes Joseph made to the printers manuscript prior to it being printed?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 3:48 pmIf the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
That's not how it worked. People don't send a manuscript, then go and supervise the printing themselves. The whole purpose of a manuscript is so that the printer will know exactly what should be in the printed edition. The manuscript is THE thing they go by.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 19th, 2022, 3:48 pmIf the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.
- Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Of course, that is how it would work. If what you claim is true that there were so many mistakes in the original, then obviously Joseph would have an interest in correcting them. Grandin probably also had questions for Joseph asking him if he really meant this or that. In today's publishing world it happens just like that. There is plenty of back and forth between both parties.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pmThe error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pmCheck the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
He did correct a lot of them. First in the 1837 edition, then more in the 1840 edition.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 20th, 2022, 10:50 amOf course, that is how it would work. If what you claim is true that there were so many mistakes in the original, then obviously Joseph would have an interest in correcting them. Grandin probably also had questions for Joseph asking him if he really meant this or that. In today's publishing world it happens just like that. There is plenty of back and forth between both parties.
That isn't how printers work. If I send over a PDF to a print shop to print up, they're not going to proofread it for me. They're just going to print up what I wrote.
Publishers are different from print shops. Publishers have editors and such. Print shops don't.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
"Fathers" also doesn't work because in Jacob 2 it clearly states that this commandment was given to "Father Lehi" (singular).Jashon wrote: ↑September 20th, 2022, 11:36 amThe typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pmThe error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pmCheck the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
- gradles21
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Or just give it a different name that doesn't have any negative connotations attached. Polygamy and Concubinage is literally happening right now and is actively celebrated by both men and women in the secular world. It is known in the dating world that 80 percent of women will only have sex with 20 percent of the men. Also think of shows like The Bachelor or the myriad of shows just like it, whoever the bachelor is constantly hooks up with every single woman on the show, all of the women know about it and none of them care.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
so..... the "injustice" of one man with many women, leaving the other men, "womanless" is already happening? I thought that type of injustice only occurred in polygamy? Are you saying that nature already dictates the law of "survival of the fittest"? Are you saying that women will actually share a strong and desirable man? Quite revelatory.gradles21 wrote: ↑September 20th, 2022, 2:14 pmOr just give it a different name that doesn't have any negative connotations attached. Polygamy and Concubinage is literally happening right now and is actively celebrated by both men and women in the secular world. It is known in the dating world that 80 percent of women will only have sex with 20 percent of the men. Also think of shows like The Bachelor or the myriad of shows just like it, whoever the bachelor is constantly hooks up with every single woman on the show, all of the women know about it and none of them care.
*sarc
as McLeod has stated many times. "The truth is evidenced" no matter what the "new speak" dictates. Feminists oppose and argue all evidence in regards to this subject.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
Galatians 4:21-31 budAtticus wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 6:15 pmWhen all else fails, just make stuff up.Alexander wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 6:08 pmTheir faithfulness?Atticus wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 5:56 pmHagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.
Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.
So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.
God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.
Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.
The son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born by divine promise.
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Re: Where are my concubines?
FOR, conjunctionArtaxerxes wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 11:57 pmThat wasn't the part I was contesting. It was and remains the lack of the word "concubine" in that passage. You want it to be there. But it isn't.Alexander wrote: ↑September 18th, 2022, 2:36 pmLmaoArtaxerxes wrote: ↑September 17th, 2022, 9:47 pmUnfortunately, that's not the only thing he was talking about. You're forcing an interpretation on the text that just isn't there.
You know what "captive" means Franklin. Don't play dumb.
The word by which a reason is introduced of something before advanced.
“I have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people. FOR they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; FOR they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old.”
Simplified: I will not suffer the women to
cry to me against their husbands because of their wicked abominations, because they shall not captivate/imprison/put into bondage the daughters of my people, because of their whoredoms.
As in it is the wickedness and abominations of the men which captivate/imprison the women. What are these abominations? When lo and behold it was polygamy and concubinage (Jacob 1:15; Jacob 2:23-24; 27-28; Jacob 3:5; the word concubine is directly used).