Where are my concubines?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
I don't know where you're getting your intel, but there's no truth to this claim. The 1830 Book of Mormon says that the commandment was given to "Father Lehi," just like the current addition does. I just double checked.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: September 17th, 2022, 9:47 pm
Alexander wrote: September 17th, 2022, 9:22 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 17th, 2022, 12:23 am

"This thing that doesn't actually talk about the thing we're talking about is OBVIOUSLY meaning whatever it is I want it to say."
“I can’t read.”


It literally says the Nephites indulged in polygamy and concubinage, and then Jacob calls it slavery.
Unfortunately, that's not the only thing he was talking about. You're forcing an interpretation on the text that just isn't there.
Lmao

You know what "captive" means Franklin. Don't play dumb.
That wasn't the part I was contesting. It was and remains the lack of the word "concubine" in that passage. You want it to be there. But it isn't.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by zionbuilder »

abijah wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:17 pm "taking daughters captive" 🤔 almost as if jacobs foreshadowing when noahs former priests abduct those lamanite girls dancing in the meadow.
Except the dancing girls were looking for husbands as was common among the Israelites.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... usalem.htm

It was also how the tribe of Benjamin was replenished without the other tribes breaking their oath in saying they would not give their daughters to them in marriage (judges 21)

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:32 pm I don't know where you're getting your intel, but there's no truth to this claim. The 1830 Book of Mormon says that the commandment was given to "Father Lehi," just like the current addition does. I just double checked.
Follow the link Artaxerxes provided and click on the 240 link after "father" and it will show you the 1830 version.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:47 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:55 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:47 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.
You're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:10 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:55 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:47 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.
You're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.
And you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?

The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:34 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:10 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:55 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:47 am
The link to the JSP you provided shows the 1829 manuscript and the 1830 edition. There is no mention of Grandin. What reason do you have to blame him?
The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.
You're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.
And you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?

The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.
I'm not assuming that at all, but I would expect his continuing involvement in the work. I agree that there would be a lot of errors, but I would think that we would both agree that neither one of us could say conclusively whether Joseph made a correction.

It is quite interesting that he would make a mistake that just happened to be dead center of the polygamy issue. I don't believe in coincidences.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:41 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:34 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:10 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:55 am

The manuscript was handed to Grandin who did the typesetting. Any errors between the manuscript and the printed edition are attributable to errors in the typesetting by Grandin.
You're presupposing that Joseph didn't make any changes in that timeframe, that there was no back and forth dialogue between Grandin and JS. He just handed off the manuscript and then lost all interest in the project.
And you imagine he was sitting in the print shop looking over their shoulder the whole time?

The Grandin edition had tons of errors, which have been well documented. Royal Shousen's book the Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text is a great read about the errors that crept.
I'm not assuming that at all, but I would expect his continuing involvement in the work. I agree that there would be a lot of errors, but I would think that we would both agree that neither one of us could say conclusively whether Joseph made a correction.

It is quite interesting that he would make a mistake that just happened to be dead center of the polygamy issue. I don't believe in coincidences.
There were thousands of errors in the 1830 edition. If this were the only change, that would be one thing. But since we know there were thousands of errors, this is just another one of many.

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FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
good catch. It could be a general term meaning "ancestors" . A teaching of tradition.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:51 am
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:32 pm I don't know where you're getting your intel, but there's no truth to this claim. The 1830 Book of Mormon says that the commandment was given to "Father Lehi," just like the current addition does. I just double checked.
Follow the link Artaxerxes provided and click on the 240 link after "father" and it will show you the 1830 version.
Yeah, it shows that the original word was father, not fathers, in the printers manuscript.

It also says the command was given to "Father Lehi" in the 1830 Book of Mormon as I said. The discrepancy you are trying to show doesn't exist.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Atticus wrote: September 19th, 2022, 1:30 pm Yeah, it shows that the original word was father, not fathers, in the printers manuscript.

It also says the command was given to "Father Lehi" in the 1830 Book of Mormon as I said. The discrepancy you are trying to show doesn't exist.
If the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 3:48 pm
Atticus wrote: September 19th, 2022, 1:30 pm Yeah, it shows that the original word was father, not fathers, in the printers manuscript.

It also says the command was given to "Father Lehi" in the 1830 Book of Mormon as I said. The discrepancy you are trying to show doesn't exist.
If the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.
Do we know of ANY changes Joseph made to the printers manuscript prior to it being printed?

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 19th, 2022, 3:48 pm
Atticus wrote: September 19th, 2022, 1:30 pm Yeah, it shows that the original word was father, not fathers, in the printers manuscript.

It also says the command was given to "Father Lehi" in the 1830 Book of Mormon as I said. The discrepancy you are trying to show doesn't exist.
If the printer's manuscript was correct, then yes. We unfortunately don't know what changes Joseph made to the manuscript before printing versus what errors the printer made.
That's not how it worked. People don't send a manuscript, then go and supervise the printing themselves. The whole purpose of a manuscript is so that the printer will know exactly what should be in the printed edition. The manuscript is THE thing they go by.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:41 pm That's not how it worked.
Of course, that is how it would work. If what you claim is true that there were so many mistakes in the original, then obviously Joseph would have an interest in correcting them. Grandin probably also had questions for Joseph asking him if he really meant this or that. In today's publishing world it happens just like that. There is plenty of back and forth between both parties.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Jashon »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.

Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Artaxerxes »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 20th, 2022, 10:50 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:41 pm That's not how it worked.
Of course, that is how it would work. If what you claim is true that there were so many mistakes in the original, then obviously Joseph would have an interest in correcting them. Grandin probably also had questions for Joseph asking him if he really meant this or that. In today's publishing world it happens just like that. There is plenty of back and forth between both parties.
He did correct a lot of them. First in the 1837 edition, then more in the 1840 edition.

That isn't how printers work. If I send over a PDF to a print shop to print up, they're not going to proofread it for me. They're just going to print up what I wrote.

Publishers are different from print shops. Publishers have editors and such. Print shops don't.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Jashon wrote: September 20th, 2022, 11:36 am
Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:54 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:15 pm He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi.
Check the original Book of Mormon, it says the commandment of our "fathers" plural. It was later changed to the singular, so as Joseph brought it forth it teaches that the command was to more than just Lehi.
The error introduced in Jacob 3 was made by Grandin. You can read the original manuscript. It says father, singular.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1830/103
The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.

Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
"Fathers" also doesn't work because in Jacob 2 it clearly states that this commandment was given to "Father Lehi" (singular).

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gradles21
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by gradles21 »

Jules wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:17 am You're gonna have to pull a Handmaid's Tale to gather up the women for that movement. :lol: :roll:
Or just give it a different name that doesn't have any negative connotations attached. Polygamy and Concubinage is literally happening right now and is actively celebrated by both men and women in the secular world. It is known in the dating world that 80 percent of women will only have sex with 20 percent of the men. Also think of shows like The Bachelor or the myriad of shows just like it, whoever the bachelor is constantly hooks up with every single woman on the show, all of the women know about it and none of them care.

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FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

gradles21 wrote: September 20th, 2022, 2:14 pm
Jules wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:17 am You're gonna have to pull a Handmaid's Tale to gather up the women for that movement. :lol: :roll:
Or just give it a different name that doesn't have any negative connotations attached. Polygamy and Concubinage is literally happening right now and is actively celebrated by both men and women in the secular world. It is known in the dating world that 80 percent of women will only have sex with 20 percent of the men. Also think of shows like The Bachelor or the myriad of shows just like it, whoever the bachelor is constantly hooks up with every single woman on the show, all of the women know about it and none of them care.
so..... the "injustice" of one man with many women, leaving the other men, "womanless" is already happening? I thought that type of injustice only occurred in polygamy? Are you saying that nature already dictates the law of "survival of the fittest"? Are you saying that women will actually share a strong and desirable man? Quite revelatory.

*sarc

as McLeod has stated many times. "The truth is evidenced" no matter what the "new speak" dictates. Feminists oppose and argue all evidence in regards to this subject.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:15 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:08 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:56 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:36 pm

Was Hagar Sarah's and Abraham's slave?

Yes

Did Abraham have sex with her?

Yes

Was this wrong?

Yes

Does this need to be spelled out in the scriptures like it was made for a 6 year old for me to understand this?

No.
Hagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.

Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.

So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Their faithfulness?

God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.

Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.
When all else fails, just make stuff up.
Galatians 4:21-31 bud

The son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born by divine promise.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Artaxerxes wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: September 17th, 2022, 9:47 pm
Alexander wrote: September 17th, 2022, 9:22 am

“I can’t read.”


It literally says the Nephites indulged in polygamy and concubinage, and then Jacob calls it slavery.
Unfortunately, that's not the only thing he was talking about. You're forcing an interpretation on the text that just isn't there.
Lmao

You know what "captive" means Franklin. Don't play dumb.
That wasn't the part I was contesting. It was and remains the lack of the word "concubine" in that passage. You want it to be there. But it isn't.
FOR, conjunction
The word by which a reason is introduced of something before advanced.

“I have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people. FOR they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; FOR they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old.”

Simplified: I will not suffer the women to
cry to me against their husbands because of their wicked abominations, because they shall not captivate/imprison/put into bondage the daughters of my people, because of their whoredoms.

As in it is the wickedness and abominations of the men which captivate/imprison the women. What are these abominations? When lo and behold it was polygamy and concubinage (Jacob 1:15; Jacob 2:23-24; 27-28; Jacob 3:5; the word concubine is directly used).

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