Where are my concubines?

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FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:22 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:08 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:57 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:44 pm You know that captivity and slavery aren't the same thing
I know I'm inserting myself here into this conversation, but yes, they are. They are so synonymous that they are almost completely interchangeable. It's like saying getting hit in the head with a crowbar versus hit in the head with a baseball bat. Same end result, you're in a coma or your dead.
Jacob 2 also deals with more than unauthorized polygamy and whoredoms. There are other sins the Nephite men were guilty of that would lead them all, including the women, into captivity if they didn't repent.
By polygamy's fruits you will know it.

Where did it lead us? It got us kicked out of Nauvoo, out of the last stake of Zion, out of the promised land and out of the country entirely into Mexican territory under the oppressive rule of BY in a barren wasteland of a desert and the heavens closed and the Lord stopped adding revelations to the D&C. Sounds like captivity to me.
my memory of what I studied differs.

Joseph Smith had warned the saints to stop retaliating against the locals. Members were burning down barns, destroying property etc. Members were so arrogant about their "righteousness" that whoever didn't agree with them were looked down on like goyim. Pride, arrogance, and vengeance is what got them thrown out. It's like a california group that moved into a small town in Utah about 15 yrs ago. They tried to force themselves into the community and tried to take power. They eventually left because they were completely "unwanted". I am personally familiar with that story.

The history of the church is nothing like what has been taught or promulgated as 'truth'.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:47 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:38 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:32 pm

Ok, so you don't like the word slavery. Fine. The whoredom of the men (desiring and taking wives and concubines) is bringing the women into bondage or imprisonment. Whatever.
What was leading them all, including the inmocent into captivity, was the love of riches and the vain things of this world, to which these wicked men also added lusting after many wives for sexual gratification and as status symbols.
Jacob said he was finished going over the crimes (of haughtiness and wealthy riotousness) and was moving on to discuss more heinous crimes of whoredom and sexual nature.

"And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime"


Read it; the women in tender sorrow cry to the Lord against the men who commit whoredoms since their abominations (of taking many wives and concubines) breaks the hearts of the women, and the Lord will not tolerate such abominable iniquity as it brings the women into captivity.

"For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts. For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts."

For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people... for they shall not commit whoredoms.
You can put whatever spin you want on this chapter, but the fact is that Jacob does not say that having more than one wife or having concubines equals slavery, which is what you originally claimed.

The wickedness of the men was leading them all into captivity, including the women, if they didn't repent of their sins.

Unless of course you want to argue that Abraham and Jacob, the righteous fathers of the faithful, were guilty of whoredoms, abominations, and sex slavery, by having concubines.
"spin"

Lmao

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:06 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:57 pm Unless of course you want to argue that Abraham and Jacob, the righteous fathers of the faithful, were guilty of whoredoms, abominations, and sex slavery, by having concubines.
We don't know that. We don't know where the translations errors of the Bible are and where they are not. That is why our default is Jacob 2, because not only is it a correct translation, but it is Christ himself calling Polygamy an abomination.
The Bible says they had concubines and this is verified in other ancient texts and in modern revelation. The Book of Mormon also doesn't say that they didn't. So you have zero justification for claiming a translation error.

Plus Jacob 2:30 allows for God to command polygamy, and God doesn't command abominations. This is obviously why the polygamy of Abraham and Jacob isn't referred to as a whoredom in Jacob 2. God obviously commanded them, just as D&C 132 says. The Bible, Book of Mormon, and D&C 132 all fit together quite nicely.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:17 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:57 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:47 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:38 pm

What was leading them all, including the inmocent into captivity, was the love of riches and the vain things of this world, to which these wicked men also added lusting after many wives for sexual gratification and as status symbols.
Jacob said he was finished going over the crimes (of haughtiness and wealthy riotousness) and was moving on to discuss more heinous crimes of whoredom and sexual nature.

"And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime"


Read it; the women in tender sorrow cry to the Lord against the men who commit whoredoms since their abominations (of taking many wives and concubines) breaks the hearts of the women, and the Lord will not tolerate such abominable iniquity as it brings the women into captivity.

"For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts. For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts."

For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people... for they shall not commit whoredoms.
You can put whatever spin you want on this chapter, but the fact is that Jacob does not say that having more than one wife or having concubines equals slavery, which is what you originally claimed.

The wickedness of the men was leading them all into captivity, including the women, if they didn't repent of their sins.

Unless of course you want to argue that Abraham and Jacob, the righteous fathers of the faithful, were guilty of whoredoms, abominations, and sex slavery, by having concubines.
"spin"

Lmao
I guess when your claim completely falls apart, all you can do is laugh your a** off. That way hopefully no one will notice that your accusing Abraham and Jacob of exploiting women through sex slavery. Because that is truly hilarious.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

> he thinks "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> he thinks the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
mfw

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:23 pm > he thinks "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> he thinks the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
mfw

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Keep laughing. It won't cover up the fact that your claim has completely fallen apart. And that by default you are arrogantly speaking evil of Abraham and Jacob by falsely accusing them of sex slavery.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:29 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:23 pm > he thinks "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> he thinks the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
mfw

Image
Keep laughing. It won't cover up the fact that your claim has completely fallen apart.
Nah. Nothing fell apart. Never tried to cover anything up.
and that by default you are arrogantly speaking evil of Abraham and Jacob by falsely accusing them of sex slavery.
I wonder if any of the Nephites whined this much when Jacob came and said their superheroes David and Solomon actually messed up.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:29 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:23 pm > he thinks "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> he thinks the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
mfw

Image
Keep laughing. It won't cover up the fact that your claim has completely fallen apart.
Nah. Nothing fell apart. Never tried to cover anything up.
and that by default you are arrogantly speaking evil of Abraham and Jacob by falsely accusing them of sex slavery.
I wonder if any of the Nephites whined this much when Jacob came and said their superheroes David and Solomon actually messed up.
Your claim totally fell apart. And since Jacob 2 doesn't mention that there was anything wrong with Abraham and Jacob having wives and concubines, your accusations off sex slavery against them doesn't have a leg to stand on either.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:46 am
FrankOne wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 5:43 pmThe salient point for me is.... "Why would God make a class of distinction at all?" . Here in this modern day, why have concubines and why is it in a scripture which goes on about eternal progression? Could concubinage be a sort of stepping stone for women even in an eternal existence? Interesting.


Though I state the true doctrine as a matter of fact, ownership of this Principle of Concubinage can only be obtained by personal prayer and revelation.

She has a Mission Given her by G_d and possible her King/Husband, and even at times, she may come down for her posterity's sake. Like all Fourth Estate Beings, she shall work on her own weaknesses and short comings while serving others.


So the answer to the question, 'Is there different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom?' A cursory reading of D&C 132 points out that those women who do not live this Law (N&EC of Marriage) shall remain single and separate, and shall be a servant unto those who are worthy of an Eternal Weight and Increase in Glory. There are female servants in the Celestial Kingdom, so yes there is different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom.

Shalom
I enjoyed reading your post. Although you must have been given certain amounts of this information, I would take a guess in that you've filled in the gaps with more detail than were given for you to understand by God. If God sat you down and told you every single one of those details, I would be very surprised. ..but... it could have happened. I am unable to make any judgment on this.

I clipped out the portions that I am certain are true, hence my question in the previous post. At times, I pose a question rather than give an answer in order to be better accepted by readers.

Your extreme detail on this subject is interesting. Are you saying that all of that came directly from God to you or were there other writings or influences which caused you to draw those conclusions?

The concept of multiple mortal probations is a difficult subject for most. Most really aren't 'ready' per se for anything but the teaching of repentance which is why many leaders have been instructed by God to only teach the basics. Anything but the basics insults the average person which then makes them defensive and..in that defensiveness, a wall is created which prevents them from learning.

When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.

No filling in the gaps, sorry. Did I receive insight into this minor doctrine revealed all at once or even at first? No, it came line upon line, over many many decades, upon various doctrines and subjects. It came from observing people and trying to explain what I see in people with things I have been shown and told about the kingdom. The first great revelation I received was on the Endowment. I was shown in vision what I would receive seven years before I did. As years pasted I receive many of the eternal Principles, until I had my ah ha moment and saw how it was everywhere in the Endowment. This happened at the beginning of the six year and it took almost a year to receive it all. No, I do not have face to face visits with G_d, or some lost record I found, or a seer stone. I pray three times a day in the True Order, and I have learned to Ask and Receive and listen closely to that still small voice, though I have had the audible Voice of G_d at specific times.

So here is your questions...I will answer them in italicized type.

Though I stated the true doctrine as a matter of fact, ownership of this Principle of Concubinage can only be obtained by personal prayer and revelation.

No one has to marry a Concubine, and even if you were to marry one, as she progresses, she will not be just a concubine forever! Hence, that is why it is a Principle and not a Doctrine, you are not required to marry one who is. Now some would say you cannot enter the Principle of CPM, unless your second wife or those after her are virgins. Is that a Doctrine of the Kingdom or just a Principle?

What did I mean by ownership of the Principle... comprehension and a witness by the Holy Ghost and Spirit that is it true.


She has a Mission Given her by G_d and possible her King/Husband, and even at times, she may come down for her posterity's sake. Like all Fourth Estate Beings, she shall work on her own weaknesses and short comings while serving others.

Women only administer unto their own Kingdom. I will give you three example of the three possibilities, for more insight:
G_d sent Esther down to save the people of Israel, that was her mission.
G_d sent the Virgin Mary down to sire the Anointed One, but she was also one of Yah's younger wives, so she was able too.
Sari/Sarah came down because of her King/Husband Abram/Abraham but she also came down to sire Her Son, Issac to help him.
I will also say, that is usually not how women will help their favored son. Often they will come down with their Son first time down (Second Estate), by marring them, trying to help them make it (through hell).


So the answer to the question, 'Is there different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom?' A cursory reading of D&C 132 points out that those women who do not live this Law (N&EC of Marriage) shall remain single and separate, and shall be a servant unto those who are worthy of an Eternal Weight and Increase in Glory. There are female servants in the Celestial Kingdom, so yes there is different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom.

D&C 132:16-17

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

There is also the three degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom:
The Lowest degree is those women who would not live this law, in this World/Creation.
The Middle degree is the Elect or Mine Elect, who are Fourth Estate Beings seeking Godhood or a Wife and heir of G_d.
The Highest degree is G_d and His wives whom have made it, unto dwelling in the Eternal Burnings.

Answer your other statements:


The concept of multiple mortal probations is a difficult subject for most.

MMP is a false Doctrine, just like the Transmigration of souls or spirits, or Reincarnation where mama or granny comes back as a cow or something totally unnatural. Men do not come back as women and visa a versa. But the point of doctrine that is of the devil is... it is just another turn of the crank, you get to just keep coming down here until you finally make it. That is just as damnable as teaching that there is the possibility of Kingdom Progression or progressing from one kingdom to another kingdom in the eternities! Second Estate Beings come down once to live and once to die and then comes the judgment.

Most really aren't 'ready' per se for anything but the teaching of repentance

Yes! Aman. The vast majority of the world is Second Estate, and they have absolutely no need to hear the Gospel of Exaltation (embodied in the Church of the Firstborn), they are under the Gospel of Salvation administer through the Church of Yahshua Ha Mashiach.

The Laws & Ordinances of the Gospel of Salvation are this:

Faith -- in Yahshua, the Messiah
Repentance -- of your Sins
Baptism -- by Immersion
Confirmation -- of the Holy Ghost
Partaking -- of the Lord’s Supper, Sacrament
Reception -- of one’s Baptism of Fire & Holy Ghost
Enduring -- unto the End


which is why many leaders have been instructed by God to only teach the basics.

Yes, milk is for babies and young children!

Anything but the basics insults the average person which then makes them defensive and..in that defensiveness, a wall is created which prevents them from learning.

Yes, the average person - the majority are on the Path of the Law of the Gospel, contain in the Torah, you know the so called Ten Commandments. They will be doing good if they can keep most of them and repent with all their heart. The vast majority in this World/Creation are going to hell - the Telestial kingdom.

When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.

Yes, it takes quit a long Time, the problem is one cannot work on their short comings in the Presence of G_d, defiling Him and the Celestial Kingdom. So, we have to come down here in a creation like this, but it is NOT an eternal do over! There is a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression, and spirits, people, and souls fall off this path by disobedience and rebellion. Wanting to understand how it works is not fully given in the canon for Second Estate Beings. They are told about the Fist Estate or Pre-existence, and the Second Estate or Temporal World we now live in, and that the Meek shall inherit the earth in the Terrestrial World to come, which is the Third Estate.

I am not here trying to convert nor converse with Second Estate Beings here. I was speaking to you in this post, and those who lurk and read post, that might be some of the Elect. Not that I am judging where you are upon the Path, you will most likely manifest that shortly without a need to ask.
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on September 18th, 2022, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:17 pm my memory of what I studied differs.

Joseph Smith had warned the saints to stop retaliating against the locals. Members were burning down barns, destroying property etc. Members were so arrogant about their "righteousness" that whoever didn't agree with them were looked down on like goyim. Pride, arrogance, and vengeance is what got them thrown out. It's like a california group that moved into a small town in Utah about 15 yrs ago. They tried to force themselves into the community and tried to take power. They eventually left because they were completely "unwanted". I am personally familiar with that story.

The history of the church is nothing like what has been taught or promulgated as 'truth'.
I'll be happy if we can all at least agree that we didn't get kicked out for our righteousness. In scriptures, it is always for disobedience to God's commands, so the only thing we should have room to disagree on is where the disobedience specifically was.

We definitely did not get kicked out for dutifully embracing further truth, light, and knowledge.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:29 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:23 pm > he thinks "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> he thinks the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
mfw

[img]
Keep laughing. It won't cover up the fact that your claim has completely fallen apart.
Nah. Nothing fell apart. Never tried to cover anything up.
and that by default you are arrogantly speaking evil of Abraham and Jacob by falsely accusing them of sex slavery.
I wonder if any of the Nephites whined this much when Jacob came and said their superheroes David and Solomon actually messed up.
Your claim totally fell apart. And since Jacob 2 doesn't mention that there was anything wrong with Abraham and Jacob having wives and concubines, your accusations off sex slavery against them doesn't have a leg to stand on either.
Was Hagar Sarah's and Abraham's slave?

Yes

Did Abraham have sex with her?

Yes

Was this wrong?

Yes

Does this need to be spelled out in the scriptures like it was made for a 6 year old for me to understand this?

No.




"The Book of Mormon doesn't specifically say anything about me beating my meat off to beastiality porn! It must be ok!"

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:23 pm > "I will command my people" is a to-infinitive clause
> the conjunction "for" means "but/however"
If anyone could prove these two assertions above, you might have a leg to stand on

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:19 pm The Bible says they had concubines and this is verified in other ancient texts and in modern revelation. The Book of Mormon also doesn't say that they didn't. So you have zero justification for claiming a translation error.

Plus Jacob 2:30 allows for God to command polygamy, and God doesn't command abominations. This is obviously why the polygamy of Abraham and Jacob isn't referred to as a whoredom in Jacob 2. God obviously commanded them, just as D&C 132 says. The Bible, Book of Mormon, and D&C 132 all fit together quite nicely.
I have two justifications.

1. The words of the Savior in the Book of Mormon condemn the practice in its entirety. The Lord never mentions or hints at there being an authorized version. It is all condemned.
2. The Brass plates do not allow for the Nephites to attribute the practice to Abraham or else they would have used Abraham as their justification. You don't use those who have lost favor with God as your examples when you can use the great patriarchs. Therefore, it seems as if the Brass Plates did not allow them to do so.

Also, we have gone over verse 30 numerous times. It is not speaking in favor of the practice. Why do you hang on to this when it has been debunked?

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FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:10 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:46 am
FrankOne wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 5:43 pmThe salient point for me is.... "Why would God make a class of distinction at all?" . Here in this modern day, why have concubines and why is it in a scripture which goes on about eternal progression? Could concubinage be a sort of stepping stone for women even in an eternal existence? Interesting.


Though I state the true doctrine as a matter of fact, ownership of this Principle of Concubinage can only be obtained by personal prayer and revelation.

She has a Mission Given her by G_d and possible her King/Husband, and even at times, she may come down for her posterity's sake. Like all Fourth Estate Beings, she shall work on her own weaknesses and short comings while serving others.


So the answer to the question, 'Is there different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom?' A cursory reading of D&C 132 points out that those women who do not live this Law (N&EC of Marriage) shall remain single and separate, and shall be a servant unto those who are worthy of an Eternal Weight and Increase in Glory. There are female servants in the Celestial Kingdom, so yes there is different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom.

Shalom
I enjoyed reading your post. Although you must have been given certain amounts of this information, I would take a guess in that you've filled in the gaps with more detail than were given for you to understand by God. If God sat you down and told you every single one of those details, I would be very surprised. ..but... it could have happened. I am unable to make any judgment on this.

I clipped out the portions that I am certain are true, hence my question in the previous post. At times, I pose a question rather than give an answer in order to be better accepted by readers.

Your extreme detail on this subject is interesting. Are you saying that all of that came directly from God to you or were there other writings or influences which caused you to draw those conclusions?

The concept of multiple mortal probations is a difficult subject for most. Most really aren't 'ready' per se for anything but the teaching of repentance which is why many leaders have been instructed by God to only teach the basics. Anything but the basics insults the average person which then makes them defensive and..in that defensiveness, a wall is created which prevents them from learning.

When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.


When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.

Yes, it takes quit a long Time, the problem is one cannot work on their short comings in the Presence of G_d, defining Him and the Celestial Kingdom. So, we have to come down here in a creation like this, but it is Not an eternal do over! There is a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression, and spirits, people and souls fall off this path by disobedience and rebellion. Wanting to understand how it works is not fully given in the canon for Second Estate Beings. They are told about the Fist Estate or Pre-existence, and the Second Estate or Temporal World we now live in, and that the Meek shall inherit the earth in the Terrestrial World to come, which is the Third Estate.

I am not here trying to convert nor converse with Second Estate Beings. I was speaking to you in this post, and those who lurk and read post, that might be some of the Elect. Not that I am judging where you are upon the Path, you will most likely manifest that shortly without a need to ask.
[/color]
I clipped the above to bring focus.

What I call MMP, you call "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression"

MMP is not reincarnation into a cow. It's human to human. How those probations might work are certainly a mystery to me, as well as you with your concept of progression.

When our current body expires, we go somewhere. When we get there, we are made aware of how much more work we still need. Then we likely go "somewhere else". Whether that's into another body or not.... it's still a course to another learning experience. We do have eternal progression whether it means coming back here or going somewhere else. Whether in another body or not... it's exactly the same concept of "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression". Whether you say tomato or tomawto, it's still the same.

Attempting to be certain about things which we are uncertain of is folly.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:36 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:29 pm

Keep laughing. It won't cover up the fact that your claim has completely fallen apart.
Nah. Nothing fell apart. Never tried to cover anything up.
and that by default you are arrogantly speaking evil of Abraham and Jacob by falsely accusing them of sex slavery.
I wonder if any of the Nephites whined this much when Jacob came and said their superheroes David and Solomon actually messed up.
Your claim totally fell apart. And since Jacob 2 doesn't mention that there was anything wrong with Abraham and Jacob having wives and concubines, your accusations off sex slavery against them doesn't have a leg to stand on either.
Was Hagar Sarah's and Abraham's slave?

Yes

Did Abraham have sex with her?

Yes

Was this wrong?

Yes

Does this need to be spelled out in the scriptures like it was made for a 6 year old for me to understand this?

No.
Hagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.

Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.

So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:56 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:36 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm

Nah. Nothing fell apart. Never tried to cover anything up.



I wonder if any of the Nephites whined this much when Jacob came and said their superheroes David and Solomon actually messed up.
Your claim totally fell apart. And since Jacob 2 doesn't mention that there was anything wrong with Abraham and Jacob having wives and concubines, your accusations off sex slavery against them doesn't have a leg to stand on either.
Was Hagar Sarah's and Abraham's slave?

Yes

Did Abraham have sex with her?

Yes

Was this wrong?

Yes

Does this need to be spelled out in the scriptures like it was made for a 6 year old for me to understand this?

No.
Hagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.

Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.

So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Their faithfulness?

God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.

Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:08 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:56 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:36 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:01 pm

Your claim totally fell apart. And since Jacob 2 doesn't mention that there was anything wrong with Abraham and Jacob having wives and concubines, your accusations off sex slavery against them doesn't have a leg to stand on either.
Was Hagar Sarah's and Abraham's slave?

Yes

Did Abraham have sex with her?

Yes

Was this wrong?

Yes

Does this need to be spelled out in the scriptures like it was made for a 6 year old for me to understand this?

No.
Hagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.

Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.

So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Their faithfulness?

God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.

Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.
When all else fails, just make stuff up.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by solonan »

Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:10 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:46 am
FrankOne wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 5:43 pmThe salient point for me is.... "Why would God make a class of distinction at all?" . Here in this modern day, why have concubines and why is it in a scripture which goes on about eternal progression? Could concubinage be a sort of stepping stone for women even in an eternal existence? Interesting.


Though I state the true doctrine as a matter of fact, ownership of this Principle of Concubinage can only be obtained by personal prayer and revelation.

She has a Mission Given her by G_d and possible her King/Husband, and even at times, she may come down for her posterity's sake. Like all Fourth Estate Beings, she shall work on her own weaknesses and short comings while serving others.


So the answer to the question, 'Is there different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom?' A cursory reading of D&C 132 points out that those women who do not live this Law (N&EC of Marriage) shall remain single and separate, and shall be a servant unto those who are worthy of an Eternal Weight and Increase in Glory. There are female servants in the Celestial Kingdom, so yes there is different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom.

Shalom
I enjoyed reading your post. Although you must have been given certain amounts of this information, I would take a guess in that you've filled in the gaps with more detail than were given for you to understand by God. If God sat you down and told you every single one of those details, I would be very surprised. ..but... it could have happened. I am unable to make any judgment on this.

I clipped out the portions that I am certain are true, hence my question in the previous post. At times, I pose a question rather than give an answer in order to be better accepted by readers.

Your extreme detail on this subject is interesting. Are you saying that all of that came directly from God to you or were there other writings or influences which caused you to draw those conclusions?

The concept of multiple mortal probations is a difficult subject for most. Most really aren't 'ready' per se for anything but the teaching of repentance which is why many leaders have been instructed by God to only teach the basics. Anything but the basics insults the average person which then makes them defensive and..in that defensiveness, a wall is created which prevents them from learning.

When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.

No filling in the gaps, sorry. Did I receive insight into this minor doctrine revealed all at once or even at first? No, it came line upon line, over many many decades, upon various doctrines and subjects. It came from observing people and trying to explain what I see in people with things I have been shown and told about the kingdom. The first great revelation I received was on the Endowment. I was shown in vision what I would receive seven years before I did. As years past I receive many of the eternal Principles, until I had ah ha moment and saw how it was everywhere in the Endowment. This happened at the beginning of the six year and it took almost a year to receive it all. No, I do not have face to face visits with G_d, or some lost record I found, or a seer stone. I pray three times a day in the True Order, and I have learned to Ask and Receive and listen closely to that still small voice, though I have had the audible Voice of G_d at specific times.

So here is your questions...I will answer them in italicized type.

Though I state the true doctrine as a matter of fact, ownership of this Principle of Concubinage can only be obtained by personal prayer and revelation.

No one has to marry a Concubine, and even if you were to marry one, as she progresses, she will not be just a concubine forever! Hense, that is why it is a Principle and not a Doctrine, you are not required to marry one who is. Now some would say you cannot enter the Principle of CPM, unless your second wife or those after her are virgins. Is that a Doctrine of the Kingdom or just a Principle?

What did I mean by ownership of the Principle... comprehension and a witness by the Holy Ghost and Spirit that is it true.


She has a Mission Given her by G_d and possible her King/Husband, and even at times, she may come down for her posterity's sake. Like all Fourth Estate Beings, she shall work on her own weaknesses and short comings while serving others.

Women only administer unto their own Kingdom. I will give you three example of the three possibilities, for more insight:
G_d sent Esther down to save the people of Israel, that was her mission.
G_d sent the Virgin Mary down to sire the Anointed One, but she was also one of Yah's younger wives, so she was able too.
Sari/Sarah came down because of the King/Husband Abram/Abraham but she also came down to sire Her Son, Issac to help him.
I will also say, that is usually not how women will help their favored son. Often they will come down with their Son first time down (Second Estate), by marring them, trying to help them make it (through hell).


So the answer to the question, 'Is there different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom?' A cursory reading of D&C 132 points out that those women who do not live this Law (N&EC of Marriage) shall remain single and separate, and shall be a servant unto those who are worthy of an Eternal Weight and Increase in Glory. There are female servants in the Celestial Kingdom, so yes there is different statuses or classes of Beings in the Celestial Kingdom.

D&C 132:16-17

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

There is also the three degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom:
The Lowest degree is those women who would not live this law, in this world/Creation.
The Middle degree is the Elect or Mine Elect, who are Fourth Estate Beings seeking Godhood or a Wife and heir of G_d.
The Highest degree is G_d and His wives whom have made it, into dwelling in the Eternal Burnings.

Answer your other statements:


The concept of multiple mortal probations is a difficult subject for most.

MMP is a false Doctrine, just like the Transmigration of souls or spirits, or Reincarnation where mama or granny comes back as a cow or something totally unnatural. Men do not come back as women and visa a versa. But the point of doctrine that is of the devil is... it is just another turn of the crank, you get to just keep coming down here until you finally make it. That is just as damnable as teaching that their is the possibility of Kingdom Progression or progressing from kingdom to kingdom in the eternities! Second Estate Beings come down once to live and die and then comes the judgment.

Most really aren't 'ready' per se for anything but the teaching of repentance

Yes! Aman. The vast majority of the world is Second Estate, and they have absolutely no need to hear the Gospel of Exaltation (embodied in the Church of the Firstborn), they are under the Gospel of Salvation administer through the Church of Yahshua Ha Mashiach.

The Laws & Ordinances of the Gospel of Salvation are this:

Faith -- in Yahshua, the Messiah
Repentance -- of your Sins
Baptism -- by Immersion
Confirmation -- of the Holy Ghost
Partaking -- of the Lord’s Supper, Sacrament
Reception -- of one’s Baptism of Fire & Holy Ghost
Enduring -- unto the End


which is why many leaders have been instructed by God to only teach the basics.

Yes, milk is for babies and young children!

Anything but the basics insults the average person which then makes them defensive and..in that defensiveness, a wall is created which prevents them from learning.

Yes, the average person - the majority are on the Path of Law of the Gospel, contain in the Torah, you know the so called Ten Commandments. They will be doing good if they can keep most of them and repent with all their heart. the vast majority in this World/Creation are going to hell - the Telestial kingdom.

When the body dies, the child of God has the same character as he did before passing. The weaknesses and the strengths ...still the same. There is no one on the other side that can wave a magic wand and make you perfect. It has to be done by US. It takes time.

Yes, it takes quit a long Time, the problem is one cannot work on their short comings in the Presence of G_d, defining Him and the Celestial Kingdom. So, we have to come down here in a creation like this, but it is Not an eternal do over! There is a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression, and spirits, people and souls fall off this path by disobedience and rebellion. Wanting to understand how it works is not fully given in the canon for Second Estate Beings. They are told about the Fist Estate or Pre-existence, and the Second Estate or Temporal World we now live in, and that the Meek shall inherit the earth in the Terrestrial World to come, which is the Third Estate.

I am not here trying to convert nor converse with Second Estate Beings. I was speaking to you in this post, and those who lurk and read post, that might be some of the Elect. Not that I am judging where you are upon the Path, you will most likely manifest that shortly without a need to ask.
Me, I'm a lurker 😅 thanks, KoZ. That places some pieces in this puzzle.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

solonan wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:17 pm Me, I'm a lurker 😅 thanks, KoZ. That places some pieces in this puzzle.
Your very welcome, G_d Bless

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm I clipped the above to bring focus.

What I call MMP, you call "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression"

MMP is not reincarnation into a cow. It's human to human. How those probations might work are certainly a mystery to me, as well as you with your concept of progression.

When our current body expires, we go somewhere. When we get there, we are made aware of how much more work we still need. Then we likely go "somewhere else". Whether that's into another body or not.... it's still a course to another learning experience. We do have eternal progression whether it means coming back here or going somewhere else. Whether in another body or not... it's exactly the same concept of "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression". Whether you say tomato or tomawto, it's still the same.

Attempting to be certain about things which we are uncertain of is folly.
No not really, what I am talking about is the "Mysteries of Godliness".
MMP only addresses mortality, and it really has no complete answers or understanding. You are where most people are who embrace that doctrine.

Joseph Smith called what I and he believe in 'Eternal Lives' and it is found in the scriptures, in D&C 132. In Multiple Mortal Probations, if one comes back here for another Probation, that denies judgment and many scriptures. When one has passed this Estate and then passes the Millennial Estate, where there is no Veil, and with no Veil if one choose to move on unto Eternal Lives, it is symbolized in the Endowment by the fourth Covenant, with its own sign, token and penalty for those who understand law, a law without a penalty there is no law. In line with the principle 'nulla poena sine culpa' ('no penalty without a law') for without a Law, there is no crime or punishment.

The fourth article of clothing, is the green Apron which is the one that symbol Fourth Estate Priesthood and their calling or mission. It has nine fig leaves upon it symbolizing the number of times a Fourth Estate Being must come down into a world like this one and cover their nakedness. The Fourth Sign literally signifies that you must come down three times and come down three time and come down three times in three different creations. You come with your 'Calling' from the Third Estate (Holy Anointing), and your 'Election' from the Fourth Estate, where it is said in D&C 132 that one may commit all manner of sins, save the unpardonable sin, and Father will bring you back into the Celestial Kingdom. Father has also made known in addition. 'But you will fulfill the Mission I (Father) has sent you to fulfill!'

So what are Fourth Estate Beings, they are G_ds Elect in the flesh, out of the Body they are the Holy Ghosts that witness all truths unto the Second Estate Beings, and in the Body, they are G_d's emissaries in a world where He cannot personally come! They many times dawn the Dispensations with power and revealing Father's glory. Enoch, Noah, Moses, Joseph Smith, and the DS are Third Creation Forth Estate Beings. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and many others are Second Creation Fourth Estate Beings (some of the 144,000 High Priest).

The Estates and how they work are far from a mystery to me!

The Eight Estates of Probation and Progression does not resemble MMP in the slightest. This is like trying to compare the Koran - MMP to the New Testament, being the Eight Estates of Probation and Progression.

I know of what I speak of, and even if all the world were to stand arrayed in defiance against me, I would not recant a thing!

I am a Heretic to true believers and a Zealot to none believers!
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on September 18th, 2022, 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:47 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm I clipped the above to bring focus.

What I call MMP, you call "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression"

MMP is not reincarnation into a cow. It's human to human. How those probations might work are certainly a mystery to me, as well as you with your concept of progression.

When our current body expires, we go somewhere. When we get there, we are made aware of how much more work we still need. Then we likely go "somewhere else". Whether that's into another body or not.... it's still a course to another learning experience. We do have eternal progression whether it means coming back here or going somewhere else. Whether in another body or not... it's exactly the same concept of "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression". Whether you say tomato or tomawto, it's still the same.

Attempting to be certain about things which we are uncertain of is folly.


I am a Heretic to true believers and a Zealot to none believers![/color]
Nothing that you've said indicates that you are a heretic.

I've engaged you in conversation on a level which only exists on illusory levels. Those levels are managed by highly evolved beings. They are known as Gods. The levels of perceived death and seemingly real sacrifice. The ideas of levels, mansions, kingdoms and glories along with punishments, rewards, damnation and eternal increase in planet building only exist in illusory constructs which do appear very real. These realms are very palpable to our senses. Those constructs last only as long as time continues. When the music is over, it will all go quiet. ...the curtain comes down and everyone goes home. Home contains no adversity, struggle, evil, suffering, or pain . Perfection is peace. It's to where Christ delivers us when we seek only peace. Forgiveness is perfect..

Here's some heresy for you. "Sin does not exist". There's even a scripture that denounces that statement as a sign of evil. If you wish to explore that concept, let me know, but we'll need to conduct that discussion in the heretic sub forum which you can find on this site. Please PM me if you are interested so I will take note of your thread on the heretic forum.

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abijah
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by abijah »

regarding Jacob's whole "taking daughters captive" language, i think its worth comparing w/ Samuel's sermon warning Israel about instituting a monarchy-

1 Samuel 8
11 He said "These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 
12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 
141He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 
15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 
16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 
17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 
18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

get in that kitchen, whamen ! :lol:

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm
I have two justifications.

1. The words of the Savior in the Book of Mormon condemn the practice in its entirety. The Lord never mentions or hints at there being an authorized version. It is all condemned.
He does mention that there's an authorized version in Jacob 2:30. He also says that the prohibition on polygamy was specific to the descendants of Lehi. Which means that there was no such prohibition on the Brass plates and that there were clearly people who hadn't been given this prohibition.
Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm
2. The Brass plates do not allow for the Nephites to attribute the practice to Abraham or else they would have used Abraham as their justification. You don't use those who have lost favor with God as your examples when you can use the great patriarchs. Therefore, it seems as if the Brass Plates did not allow them to do so.
You can choose to believe this, but nothing in the text suggests that the brass plates said that Abraham and Jacob weren't polygamists. And based on D&C 132, Jacob used David and Solomon as examples because in addition to practicing authorized polygamy for a time, they both later practiced the abominable version. Verse 30 makes it clear that the polygamy of Abraham and Jacob was commanded by God.
Shawn Henry wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm Also, we have gone over verse 30 numerous times. It is not speaking in favor of the practice. Why do you hang on to this when it has been debunked?
It has definitely not been "debunked." Not in the slightest.

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abijah
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by abijah »

"taking daughters captive" 🤔 almost as if jacobs foreshadowing when noahs former priests abduct those lamanite girls dancing in the meadow.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 9:20 pm
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:47 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:48 pm I clipped the above to bring focus.

What I call MMP, you call "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression"

MMP is not reincarnation into a cow. It's human to human. How those probations might work are certainly a mystery to me, as well as you with your concept of progression.

When our current body expires, we go somewhere. When we get there, we are made aware of how much more work we still need. Then we likely go "somewhere else". Whether that's into another body or not.... it's still a course to another learning experience. We do have eternal progression whether it means coming back here or going somewhere else. Whether in another body or not... it's exactly the same concept of "a 'Path of Eternal Probation and Progression". Whether you say tomato or tomawto, it's still the same.

Attempting to be certain about things which we are uncertain of is folly.


I am a Heretic to true believers and a Zealot to none believers![/color]
Nothing that you've said indicates that you are a heretic.

I've engaged you in conversation on a level which only exists on illusory levels. Those levels are managed by highly evolved beings. They are known as Gods. The levels of perceived death and seemingly real sacrifice. The ideas of levels, mansions, kingdoms and glories along with punishments, rewards, damnation and eternal increase in planet building only exist in illusory constructs which do appear very real. These realms are very palpable to our senses. Those constructs last only as long as time continues. When the music is over, it will all go quiet. ...the curtain comes down and everyone goes home. Home contains no adversity, struggle, evil, suffering, or pain . Perfection is peace. It's to where Christ delivers us when we seek only peace. Forgiveness is perfect..

Here's some heresy for you. "Sin does not exist". There's even a scripture that denounces that statement as a sign of evil. If you wish to explore that concept, let me know, but we'll need to conduct that discussion in the heretic sub forum which you can find on this site. Please PM me if you are interested so I will take note of your thread on the heretic forum.
I was not saying to you I am a heretic... that was my signature here back when this forum had signatures. But to common run of the mill LDS Church members, I am a heretic!

It is only an illusion if I am preaching a doctrine that is not a scriptural based doctrine. The greatest Sermon was the Sermon on the Mount given by the Messiah. Problem is, for over two millenniums, no one has understood what He was actually talking about... that is until now.

https://www.academia.edu/39991837/The_P ... BEATITUDES

Read it online or download the PDF for free.

Shalom
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on September 19th, 2022, 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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