Recent temple changes?

[inho]

I haven't been to endowments for a while. The last time I went to temple, I did sealings and the time before that baptisms and initiatories. But a friend of mine was in an endowment session yesterday and told that there has been some further streamlining of the mechanics. Not everybody's hand is shaken anymore. Only the hands of the witness couple are shaken and other see an image of the clasp on a screen. Obviously, at the veil everybody still need to do it. So the change is only to shorten the time of the instruction related to the tokens.

Is this the only change that has happened recently? Or was there some other changes that my friend just missed?

[Niemand]

I haven't been to endowments for a while. The last time I went to temple, I did sealings and the time before that baptisms and initiatories. But a friend of mine was in an endowment session yesterday and told that there has been some further streamlining of the mechanics. Not everybody's hand is shaken anymore. Only the hands of the witness couple are shaken and other see an image of the clasp on a screen. Obviously, at the veil everybody still need to do it. So the change is only to shorten the time of the instruction related to the tokens.

Is this the only change that has happened recently? Or was there some other changes that my friend just missed?

What are you considering "recent"?

[kittycat51]

If anything it was to protect from scary Covid…not passing germs as much by touching so many hands. That’s been going on for at least 18 months.

[Artaxerxes]

I haven't been to endowments for a while. The last time I went to temple, I did sealings and the time before that baptisms and initiatories. But a friend of mine was in an endowment session yesterday and told that there has been some further streamlining of the mechanics. Not everybody's hand is shaken anymore. Only the hands of the witness couple are shaken and other see an image of the clasp on a screen. Obviously, at the veil everybody still need to do it. So the change is only to shorten the time of the instruction related to the tokens.

Is this the only change that has happened recently? Or was there some other changes that my friend just missed?

There have been several other changes. You should go if you can.

[inho]

If anything it was to protect from scary Covid…not passing germs as much by touching so many hands. That’s been going on for at least 18 months.

Ok, that explains. After Covid I have only done baptisms, initiatories, and sealings. There were no covid precautions in those ordinances. Not even masks were used. I guess that means that endowment change is a permanent change.

There have been several other changes. You should go if you can.

I am aware of the 2019 changes. Has there been other more recent changes?

[Subcomandante]

I haven't been to endowments for a while. The last time I went to temple, I did sealings and the time before that baptisms and initiatories. But a friend of mine was in an endowment session yesterday and told that there has been some further streamlining of the mechanics. Not everybody's hand is shaken anymore. Only the hands of the witness couple are shaken and other see an image of the clasp on a screen. Obviously, at the veil everybody still need to do it. So the change is only to shorten the time of the instruction related to the tokens.

Is this the only change that has happened recently? Or was there some other changes that my friend just missed?

From what I was able to gather from the Mexico City Temple presidency, this is done to protect people from potentially spreading COVID around.

[Luke]

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 308, 11 June 1843)

[inho]

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 308, 11 June 1843)

Here is a longer quote from JSPP:

The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby he could reveal unto his people the ordinances of his house and the glories of his kingdom, and teach the people the way of Salvation, for there are certain ordinances and principles that when they are taught and practised must be done in a place or house built for that purpose.

It was the design of the Councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and Laws of the Priesthood were predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did everything possible to gather the people and they would not be gathered and he therefore poured out curses upon them. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the World in the Priesthood for the Salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed, all must be saved on the same principles.

To be honest, I am not sure how the word ordinances should be interpreted in this context. On the other hand, Joseph talks about temple, where the ordinances could be revealed. On the other hand, he talks of "ordinances and principles", "the principles and laws of the priesthood", "ordinances ... are not to be altered ... all must be saved on same principles".

We must remember that during Joseph's days the terminology wasn't yet that fixed. The word ordinances wasn't used only in reference to priesthood rituals. Compare with "city ordinances". There was a thread about the original formulation of the 4th article of faith that made this viewpoint clear. Instead of "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are", the 4th article used to say simply "These ordinances are" (referring to the 3rd article). Thus, it called faith and repentance ordinances. Something that we don't do today.

So when Joseph talked about "ordinances and principles", was he talking about the mechanics of the priesthood rituals? I am not so sure.

[Luke]

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 308, 11 June 1843)

Here is a longer quote from JSPP:

The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby he could reveal unto his people the ordinances of his house and the glories of his kingdom, and teach the people the way of Salvation, for there are certain ordinances and principles that when they are taught and practised must be done in a place or house built for that purpose.

It was the design of the Councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and Laws of the Priesthood were predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did everything possible to gather the people and they would not be gathered and he therefore poured out curses upon them. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the World in the Priesthood for the Salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed, all must be saved on the same principles.

To be honest, I am not sure how the word ordinances should be interpreted in this context. On the other hand, Joseph talks about temple, where the ordinances could be revealed. On the other hand, he talks of "ordinances and principles", "the principles and laws of the priesthood", "ordinances ... are not to be altered ... all must be saved on same principles".

We must remember that during Joseph's days the terminology wasn't yet that fixed. The word ordinances wasn't used only in reference to priesthood rituals. Compare with "city ordinances". There was a thread about the original formulation of the 4th article of faith that made this viewpoint clear. Instead of "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are", the 4th article used to say simply "These ordinances are" (referring to the 3rd article). Thus, it called faith and repentance ordinances. Something that we don't do today.

So when Joseph talked about "ordinances and principles", was he talking about the mechanics of the priesthood rituals? I am not so sure.

"Ordinance" just meant "something which has to be done".

Which is why the city ordinances were called such - they had to be obeyed.

Which is why faith and repentance are ordinances - they must be done.

Which is why the Temple Ordinances are NOT to be changed.

[Sarah]

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 308, 11 June 1843)

Here is a longer quote from JSPP:

The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby he could reveal unto his people the ordinances of his house and the glories of his kingdom, and teach the people the way of Salvation, for there are certain ordinances and principles that when they are taught and practised must be done in a place or house built for that purpose.

It was the design of the Councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and Laws of the Priesthood were predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did everything possible to gather the people and they would not be gathered and he therefore poured out curses upon them. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the World in the Priesthood for the Salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed, all must be saved on the same principles.

To be honest, I am not sure how the word ordinances should be interpreted in this context. On the other hand, Joseph talks about temple, where the ordinances could be revealed. On the other hand, he talks of "ordinances and principles", "the principles and laws of the priesthood", "ordinances ... are not to be altered ... all must be saved on same principles".

We must remember that during Joseph's days the terminology wasn't yet that fixed. The word ordinances wasn't used only in reference to priesthood rituals. Compare with "city ordinances". There was a thread about the original formulation of the 4th article of faith that made this viewpoint clear. Instead of "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are", the 4th article used to say simply "These ordinances are" (referring to the 3rd article). Thus, it called faith and repentance ordinances. Something that we don't do today.

So when Joseph talked about "ordinances and principles", was he talking about the mechanics of the priesthood rituals? I am not so sure.

"Ordinance" just meant "something which has to be done".

Which is why the city ordinances were called such - they had to be obeyed.

Which is why faith and repentance are ordinances - they must be done.

Which is why the Temple Ordinances are NOT to be changed.

The basics of the the ordinance, the washing and anointing, our covenants, the signs and tokens, and most importantly, that it is done under the Lord's authority, is what matters in my opinion. Joseph mentions in this quote teaching, learning, laws and principles, and the story we receive are also part of the process. When reading the early endowment and the lecture at the veil, it seems more like a sermon from JofD than anything else, so if anything, maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

[BigT]

...maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

Are you aware of any way of knowing what was "intended to be there"? I'm not. Joseph didn't write anything down and BY didn't write anything down until years later. From what I know, it seems most, if not all, of the endowment came from BY, which leaves me suspicious and leery. Adam God theory, Masonic handshakes still in use today (outside of the endowment), Masonic penalties (now removed, but only because they were triggering flashbacks of satanic ritual abuse in Utah/Idaho saints), and whatever BY felt like preaching about when he was conducting a session. Other than the washings and annointings it all seems a murky mess.

[Sarah]

...maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

Are you aware of any way of knowing what was "intended to be there"? I'm not. Joseph didn't write anything down and BY didn't write anything down until years later. From what I know, it seems most, if not all, of the endowment came from BY, which leaves me suspicious and leery. Adam God theory, Masonic handshakes still in use today (outside of the endowment), Masonic penalties (now removed, but only because they were triggering flashbacks of satanic ritual abuse in Utah/Idaho saints), and whatever BY felt like preaching about when he was conducting a session. Other than the washings and annointings it all seems a murky mess.

I wish we knew exactly what Joseph introduced. To my knowledge we don't know. We know Joseph charged Brigham with systemizing it or whatever the quote is.

[Sarah]

...maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

Are you aware of any way of knowing what was "intended to be there"? I'm not. Joseph didn't write anything down and BY didn't write anything down until years later. From what I know, it seems most, if not all, of the endowment came from BY, which leaves me suspicious and leery. Adam God theory, Masonic handshakes still in use today (outside of the endowment), Masonic penalties (now removed, but only because they were triggering flashbacks of satanic ritual abuse in Utah/Idaho saints), and whatever BY felt like preaching about when he was conducting a session. Other than the washings and annointings it all seems a murky mess.

The similarities to Masonry don't bother me when we have the quote that Joseph taught that Masonry was the apostate or corrupted endowment, just like Catholicism is apostate church.

[Luke]

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 308, 11 June 1843)

Here is a longer quote from JSPP:

The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby he could reveal unto his people the ordinances of his house and the glories of his kingdom, and teach the people the way of Salvation, for there are certain ordinances and principles that when they are taught and practised must be done in a place or house built for that purpose.

It was the design of the Councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and Laws of the Priesthood were predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did everything possible to gather the people and they would not be gathered and he therefore poured out curses upon them. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the World in the Priesthood for the Salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed, all must be saved on the same principles.

To be honest, I am not sure how the word ordinances should be interpreted in this context. On the other hand, Joseph talks about temple, where the ordinances could be revealed. On the other hand, he talks of "ordinances and principles", "the principles and laws of the priesthood", "ordinances ... are not to be altered ... all must be saved on same principles".

We must remember that during Joseph's days the terminology wasn't yet that fixed. The word ordinances wasn't used only in reference to priesthood rituals. Compare with "city ordinances". There was a thread about the original formulation of the 4th article of faith that made this viewpoint clear. Instead of "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are", the 4th article used to say simply "These ordinances are" (referring to the 3rd article). Thus, it called faith and repentance ordinances. Something that we don't do today.

So when Joseph talked about "ordinances and principles", was he talking about the mechanics of the priesthood rituals? I am not so sure.

"Ordinance" just meant "something which has to be done".

Which is why the city ordinances were called such - they had to be obeyed.

Which is why faith and repentance are ordinances - they must be done.

Which is why the Temple Ordinances are NOT to be changed.

The basics of the the ordinance, the washing and anointing, our covenants, the signs and tokens, and most importantly, that it is done under the Lord's authority, is what matters in my opinion. Joseph mentions in this quote teaching, learning, laws and principles, and the story we receive are also part of the process. When reading the early endowment and the lecture at the veil, it seems more like a sermon from JofD than anything else, so if anything, maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

I agree that those basics are what actually constitutes the essential elements of the ordiances.

But these have been altered in LDS practice and this is a fact.

You also neglected to mention the penalties which are also no longer present.

[inho]

You also neglected to mention the penalties which are also no longer present.

Interestingly, the remnant of the penalties still lingers. We still do some signs, and those signs are like still images of the last poses of acting out of the penalty. People just don't know that. They don't know that the extended thumb represent a knife. And that with the other hand you will capture whatever is falling from the cut. Instead, people will try to come up with other explanations for the poses.

[Artaxerxes]

If anything it was to protect from scary Covid…not passing germs as much by touching so many hands. That’s been going on for at least 18 months.

Ok, that explains. After Covid I have only done baptisms, initiatories, and sealings. There were no covid precautions in those ordinances. Not even masks were used. I guess that means that endowment change is a permanent change.

There have been several other changes. You should go if you can.

I am aware of the 2019 changes. Has there been other more recent changes?

I think so. Obviously it was hard to go in 2020, so I can't be 100% sure, but I think there were changes since then.

[Sarah]

Here is a longer quote from JSPP:

To be honest, I am not sure how the word ordinances should be interpreted in this context. On the other hand, Joseph talks about temple, where the ordinances could be revealed. On the other hand, he talks of "ordinances and principles", "the principles and laws of the priesthood", "ordinances ... are not to be altered ... all must be saved on same principles".

We must remember that during Joseph's days the terminology wasn't yet that fixed. The word ordinances wasn't used only in reference to priesthood rituals. Compare with "city ordinances". There was a thread about the original formulation of the 4th article of faith that made this viewpoint clear. Instead of "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are", the 4th article used to say simply "These ordinances are" (referring to the 3rd article). Thus, it called faith and repentance ordinances. Something that we don't do today.

So when Joseph talked about "ordinances and principles", was he talking about the mechanics of the priesthood rituals? I am not so sure.

"Ordinance" just meant "something which has to be done".

Which is why the city ordinances were called such - they had to be obeyed.

Which is why faith and repentance are ordinances - they must be done.

Which is why the Temple Ordinances are NOT to be changed.

The basics of the the ordinance, the washing and anointing, our covenants, the signs and tokens, and most importantly, that it is done under the Lord's authority, is what matters in my opinion. Joseph mentions in this quote teaching, learning, laws and principles, and the story we receive are also part of the process. When reading the early endowment and the lecture at the veil, it seems more like a sermon from JofD than anything else, so if anything, maybe we have cut out what has been added or "changed" that wasn't intended to be there.

I agree that those basics are what actually constitutes the essential elements of the ordiances.

But these have been altered in LDS practice and this is a fact.

You also neglected to mention the penalties which are also no longer present.

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place? I don't know. That's why we simply need to get a testimony about the rightness of what we are doing currently. Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have occurred in the temple, and I have testimonies of people seeing their ancestors there during the ordinances. So for me, I have that testimony. Also I was pretty much compelled by the spirit to start doing family history work years ago and had some spiritual experiences with that as well. So I'm thankful I have that testimony to the validity of the work we do there.

[Luke]

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place? I don't know. That's why we simply need to get a testimony about the rightness of what we are doing currently. Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have occurred in the temple, and I have testimonies of people seeing their ancestors there during the ordinances. So for me, I have that testimony. Also I was pretty much compelled by the spirit to start doing family history work years ago and had some spiritual experiences with that as well. So I'm thankful I have that testimony to the validity of the work we do there.

I have a testimony that what we are doing is not right!

I believe that the Lord accepts of our efforts, but that there are many things missing. This is undeniable.

[Sarah]

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place? I don't know. That's why we simply need to get a testimony about the rightness of what we are doing currently. Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have occurred in the temple, and I have testimonies of people seeing their ancestors there during the ordinances. So for me, I have that testimony. Also I was pretty much compelled by the spirit to start doing family history work years ago and had some spiritual experiences with that as well. So I'm thankful I have that testimony to the validity of the work we do there.

I have a testimony that what we are doing is not right!

I believe that the Lord accepts of our efforts, but that there are many things missing. This is undeniable.

I too believe that there is always a good better best. So the important thing is to know if the ordinance is legal in Heaven and if it is approved by the Lord, and if this is truly the Lord's church.

[Luke]

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place? I don't know. That's why we simply need to get a testimony about the rightness of what we are doing currently. Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have occurred in the temple, and I have testimonies of people seeing their ancestors there during the ordinances. So for me, I have that testimony. Also I was pretty much compelled by the spirit to start doing family history work years ago and had some spiritual experiences with that as well. So I'm thankful I have that testimony to the validity of the work we do there.

I have a testimony that what we are doing is not right!

I believe that the Lord accepts of our efforts, but that there are many things missing. This is undeniable.

I too believe that there is always a good better best. So the important thing is to know if the ordinance is legal in Heaven and if it is approved by the Lord, and if this is truly the Lord's church.

I do believe that it is approved by the Lord but there will need to be things made up for.

As for it being the Lord's Church that distinction belongs to you and me.

No doubt that the LDS Church is made up of people who are of the Lord's Church.

[InfoWarrior82]

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place? I don't know. That's why we simply need to get a testimony about the rightness of what we are doing currently. Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have occurred in the temple, and I have testimonies of people seeing their ancestors there during the ordinances. So for me, I have that testimony. Also I was pretty much compelled by the spirit to start doing family history work years ago and had some spiritual experiences with that as well. So I'm thankful I have that testimony to the validity of the work we do there.

I have a testimony that what we are doing is not right!

I believe that the Lord accepts of our efforts, but that there are many things missing. This is undeniable.

I too believe that there is always a good better best. So the important thing is to know if the ordinance is legal in Heaven and if it is approved by the Lord, and if this is truly the Lord's church.

I do believe that it is approved by the Lord but there will need to be things made up for.

As for it being the Lord's Church that distinction belongs to you and me.

No doubt that the LDS Church is made up of people who are of the Lord's Church.

Just curious... what about changing ordinances would make it illegal?

[Luke]

I have a testimony that what we are doing is not right!

I believe that the Lord accepts of our efforts, but that there are many things missing. This is undeniable.

I too believe that there is always a good better best. So the important thing is to know if the ordinance is legal in Heaven and if it is approved by the Lord, and if this is truly the Lord's church.

I do believe that it is approved by the Lord but there will need to be things made up for.

As for it being the Lord's Church that distinction belongs to you and me.

No doubt that the LDS Church is made up of people who are of the Lord's Church.

Just curious... what about changing ordinances would make it illegal?

Those who have changed them will be held to account, and those who have faithfully tried to work what we have left from Joseph Smith will be blessed.

[InfoWarrior82]

I too believe that there is always a good better best. So the important thing is to know if the ordinance is legal in Heaven and if it is approved by the Lord, and if this is truly the Lord's church.

I do believe that it is approved by the Lord but there will need to be things made up for.

As for it being the Lord's Church that distinction belongs to you and me.

No doubt that the LDS Church is made up of people who are of the Lord's Church.

Just curious... what about changing ordinances would make it illegal?

Those who have changed them will be held to account, and those who have faithfully tried to work what we have left from Joseph Smith will be blessed.

Perhaps, but is it ever possible that ordinances could be changed to the point where the Lord no longer recognizes them? Or does that depend only on the question of authority alone? Meaning... can our church leaders change the ordinances to literally anything they want to (stand on one leg, pat your head, rub your belly) and still have the Lord recognize it when we perform it?

[Niemand]

Some of the early endowments took a whopping five hours. You can bet they were somewhat different to the streamlined version today.

I must confess I am not a fan of much of the Endowment. I enjoy the film, or at least the nature footage, but I'm not one for ritual. I don't think I would have like the penalties, but I arrived too late for that. The similarity to Masonry is well trodden ground... so I won't go into that. But I do think I understand parts of it better than a lot of the members do. I was lucky to have a knowledgeable escort first time round. He pointed me towards a few things that I've never seen taught but which make sense.

Recent events have alienated me a bit from the temple. I haven't been in over two years now.

That said, I agree with Luke above. If it has been repeatedly tampered with, that is not on the head of the rank and file members.

[Shawn Henry]

Right, so the question is, how inspired or important were those penalties in the first place?

It shouldn't be a question. The Savior said not to swear by your head, which means swearing by your life.