Hello from the desert. Riverbed ranch.

[Will1]

I live at riverbed ranch. My family and I have successfully made the off grid transition.
I have written on this forum years ago. I have learned many things pertaining to what it takes to be truly self sufficient. I will be happy to answer any questions as long as it isn't a dumb one.
We have our well in.
I have our solar up and it works amazingly well.
I put in our septic and greenhouse.
Yes you can grow food in the desert. And yes we are doing so successfully. I also raise rabbits and have started catfish. It has its challenges however, I have learned things that many people cannot even begin to comprehend. I started out last year. I would not change anything.
The community is amazing. We do have our challenges but most help and serve one another whenever it is needed.

[kittycat51]

Welcome. (back) You need to respond with Mudflap who is currently building a cabin.

[BigT]

About how much did it cost to get where you’re at now? Ball park figure.

[Will1]

To get where I was able to get what we needed, approximately 100. It would be closer to 120 right now due to bidenflation. This is without a home built. However we have a project going.

[larsenb]

Can you give a proximate/general location?

[Will1]

Yes approximately 73 miles west of nephi, and 40 miles north of delta. You can look it up on the web Utah osr riverbed ranch.

[BigT]

Can you give a proximate/general location?

https://www.riverbed-ranch.com/contact-us
2 hours from us.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I've been very interested in this community - do they require you to have a plan for your property approved by the community or do you just get the money and start digging your well?

[Will1]

You have to have a well septic greenhouse barn eventually a home.. we have had some issues with supply chains and inflation. However we are making progress there is a list for the wells after you put in you application.We currently have 125 shareholders out 0f 250 plots available. Many great things are happening. A whole community 100% off grid. The early pioneers did it with far less than what we have. I was able to accomplish almost everything and remain debt free. The ranch itself is paid for and debt free. True freedom.

[Cruiserdude]

You have to have a well septic greenhouse barn eventually a home.. we have had some issues with supply chains and inflation. However we are making progress there is a list for the wells after you put in you application.We currently have 125 shareholders out 0f 250 plots available. Many great things are happening. A whole community 100% off grid. The early pioneers did it with far less than what we have. I was able to accomplish almost everything and remain debt free. The ranch itself is paid for and debt free. True freedom.

You guys are an inspiration and an example to all of us that still intentionally desiring to live with the conveniences that Babylon provides.
Keep up the great example hermano!!

[larsenb]

You have to have a well septic greenhouse barn eventually a home.. we have had some issues with supply chains and inflation. However we are making progress there is a list for the wells after you put in you application.We currently have 125 shareholders out 0f 250 plots available. Many great things are happening. A whole community 100% off grid. The early pioneers did it with far less than what we have. I was able to accomplish almost everything and remain debt free. The ranch itself is paid for and debt free. True freedom.

What do you know about the acquifer: depth, extent/volume, what gal/minute can be sustained; how fast does it renew, or is it being drawn down?

Possible interference of septic with the acquifer?

And I assume the 30K for 2 acres, is the buy in price for a share in the co-op, not an actual fee-simple title for the land . . . .

[Will1]

Valid concerns. .. We are between 2 mountain ranges. The last 2 weeks it has rained several times. Our water catchment for the aquifer is pretty good. Replenish rate is great.. at 20 gallons a minute no drawn down.. Even with the amount of wells, the aquifer is pretty large. I personally do not believe we will have an issue with water. Septic systems. It will be another 15 to 20 years before I see an issue with nitrates in the water if at all. We have 3 underground rivers that are constantly flowing north to the Great Salt lake. There is enough water. About ownership of land. I like the idea of a cooperative. I own my share. I have 2.3 acres. This is my home.

[Robin Hood]

You have to have a well septic greenhouse barn eventually a home.. we have had some issues with supply chains and inflation. However we are making progress there is a list for the wells after you put in you application.We currently have 125 shareholders out 0f 250 plots available. Many great things are happening. A whole community 100% off grid. The early pioneers did it with far less than what we have. I was able to accomplish almost everything and remain debt free. The ranch itself is paid for and debt free. True freedom.

Do you have to pay property taxes?

[BroJones]

You have to have a well septic greenhouse barn eventually a home.. we have had some issues with supply chains and inflation. However we are making progress there is a list for the wells after you put in you application.We currently have 125 shareholders out 0f 250 plots available. Many great things are happening. A whole community 100% off grid. The early pioneers did it with far less than what we have. I was able to accomplish almost everything and remain debt free. The ranch itself is paid for and debt free. True freedom.

Do you have to pay property taxes?

Have you sensed any opposition from a y Church leadership?

[mudflap]

Welcome. (back) You need to respond with Mudflap who is currently building a cabin.

very cool!

@Will1 How did you do it debt free?
any pictures of the place you'd like to share?
where do you guys go to church - is there a branch or a ward or what?
can you build whatever kind of home you want on your land?
Is it your land (do you get a title)? and could you sell it later?
do you need a job for income outside of just farming?
Is the school up and running? medical?
how do you pay for services / repairs / replacement parts for your solar, for example?
What about retirement when you're too old to work - will they take care of you? some kind of retirement fund?

I'm finishing up stubbing in plumbing on mine (3.7 acres), rough-in electrical pretty much done. Not in a co-op - but the idea is intriguing. Alabama won't let you go 100% off-grid for now if you are within city limits, and they charge you some kind of electrical fee (illegal, IMO) if you want to do solar, but I think they might change that soon. Hooking up to city sewer/utilities was cheaper than septic, but we could go septic in the future - we planned our build-site to do either.

From the riverbed ranch website - "2 acres with water for $30k" isn't a bad deal in Utah. not bad at all - last I looked, a 1/4 acre in Layton was $40k. why would you live in Layton when you could have 8 times the land for less and not pay ridiculous water fees? lol....

[mudflap]

found an answer to one of my questions:

https://www.riverbed-ranch.com/faq
Our current shareholders are working on building their infrastructure and homes, and our best guess is that it will take a minimum of $225,000 to complete.

wow. that's kind of expensive for an off-grid home. You could go a lot cheaper using an LHBA home design that will meet or exceed Juab county building requirements. We're hoping to move into ours later this year for about $60k. It'll be a 3,000 sq ft home with 4 bed/3 baths, oak floors, soapstone counters, totally custom, pretty much 100% did it ourselves with 0 professional experience (yeah, it's THAT easy to understand). We even drew our own floor plans. If you build a smaller LHBA home, it would cost you even less - some folks have built an LHBA home for $25k. Looking through the building requirements, I don't see why you couldn't build an LHBA home there.

[Reluctant Watchman]

found an answer to one of my questions:

https://www.riverbed-ranch.com/faq
Our current shareholders are working on building their infrastructure and homes, and our best guess is that it will take a minimum of $225,000 to complete.

wow. that's kind of expensive for an off-grid home. You could go a lot cheaper using an LHBA home design that will meet or exceed Juab county building requirements. We're hoping to move into ours later this year for about $60k. It'll be a 3,000 sq ft home with 4 bed/3 baths, oak floors, soapstone counters, totally custom, pretty much 100% did it ourselves with 0 professional experience (yeah, it's THAT easy to understand). We even drew our own floor plans. If you build a smaller LHBA home, it would cost you even less - some folks have built an LHBA home for $25k. Looking through the building requirements, I don't see why you couldn't build an LHBA home there.

I'm assuming the amount you quoted from the website is far more than the cost of the home but includes "infrastructure". That part can get quite expensive.

[mudflap]

found an answer to one of my questions:

https://www.riverbed-ranch.com/faq
Our current shareholders are working on building their infrastructure and homes, and our best guess is that it will take a minimum of $225,000 to complete.

wow. that's kind of expensive for an off-grid home. You could go a lot cheaper using an LHBA home design that will meet or exceed Juab county building requirements. We're hoping to move into ours later this year for about $60k. It'll be a 3,000 sq ft home with 4 bed/3 baths, oak floors, soapstone counters, totally custom, pretty much 100% did it ourselves with 0 professional experience (yeah, it's THAT easy to understand). We even drew our own floor plans. If you build a smaller LHBA home, it would cost you even less - some folks have built an LHBA home for $25k. Looking through the building requirements, I don't see why you couldn't build an LHBA home there.

I'm assuming the amount you quoted from the website is far more than the cost of the home but includes "infrastructure". That part can get quite expensive.

I'll agree with this.

But digging a well is not more than $5k - this is a valley location - most areas in the USA have water @ 20' below the surface. Even at $65 / ft, that's $1300. Even if you figure all the bells and whistles, most folks can get a well put in for under $10k.

Solar is the kicker - you could pay $20-$40k for a system. My sister got the highly overpriced one that Utah Power rips you off for I think $75k. crazy. But a DIY system - probably can be done for $10k.

Septic - $5k is what they cost here - permit, system, installation - the whole Kabooty.

So, yeah, infrastructure is where it can vary widely. I'd be interested to learn what that cost is for OSR members.

My infrastructure costs for my cabin in AL on my own land:
- $25k for the land. We put $5k down, and did owner financing with a land attorney. I pay him directly every month - no bank involved. it's about $200 / mo. My credit is such that I could have bought a huge piece of land, but our goal was something I could pay off by working at a gas station if needed. We also wanted it low enough that we could build without a loan - "pay as we go". We'll probably pay it off here in about 2 years or less - once we finish building, all our build money gets dumped into paying off the loan. We're in year 6 of a 10 year loan, so more than halfway there already.
- $5k: sewer, electric, water. We could have gone semi-offgrid, and done septic ($5k), city water ($2.5k), and solar (x?) + city electric, but AL won't allow 100% off-grid within city limits, so the flat fee for all 3 made more sense.
- We've averaged paying out of pocket about $500 / month. Lately it's been around $800 / mo while I'm doing electrical and plumbing, but while I was cutting trees for 18 months, I was only buying fuel for the tractor/chainsaw, and chains for the saw, so maybe $25/mo? Stacking logs was no different - I paid $700 for rebar, the rest was fuel for the tractor. So figure: $500 x 12 months x 6 years = $36,000. That's a high estimate.
- We've bought a lot of stuff at thrift stores / habitat: a bathtub for $25. 4 windows for $60. Made my own custom brackets for floor joists, built exterior doors for $150 (instead of $800+). Sawmill saved me $10k+ on lumber - made window/door frames, rafters, stairs. As long as it's not "structural", they allow you to use "non-certified" lumber. Could've framed the entire house with milled lumber (since the framing is not structural), but we saved so much with the walls and foundation that we decided time was more important than money.

short summary:
$36k (house) + $25k (land) = $61k. Probably overestimating here - if I broke it down by actual cost (roof, subfloor, framing, plumbing, electrical, foundation), it's a lot cheaper. When I'm done, I'm sure I'll go through and look carefully. I have a bunch of receipts. But this is typical for a 100% DIY LHBA home.

Now if I throw in "time spent building it"......it's a $25M home, lol.....

[Reluctant Watchman]

But digging a well is not more than $5k - this is a valley location - most areas in the USA have water @ 20' below the surface. Even at $65 / ft, that's $1300. Even if you figure all the bells and whistles, most folks can get a well put in for under $10k.

Most wells where I live are over 200', and I live in the valley. Last I heard the average cost to dig a well was $30-40k.

[Atrasado]

But digging a well is not more than $5k - this is a valley location - most areas in the USA have water @ 20' below the surface. Even at $65 / ft, that's $1300. Even if you figure all the bells and whistles, most folks can get a well put in for under $10k.

Most wells where I live are over 200', and I live in the valley. Last I heard the average cost to dig a well was $30-40k.

That's the difference between down South and the intermountain West. We're more in the $40k range here.

[mudflap]

The whole idea here that I really like is living debt-free.

But you have to have a job to make money to buy materials to build your own place to live, so you have to "have a job" to get started. And you have to live while you're trying to get started - which also requires money. so you either have to have a well-paid job, or just be naturally rich. Having a well-paid job usually requires you to live in the city. Now you have to commute if you want that place in the country. Also, you have to have some training / skills to get a well-paid job (so you need school or something). so now you're an office rat, in your mid 50's, wondering why you can't live in the country. It sucks. I've been there.

Since I'm not smart at gambling (stock market), I decided to have a regular job in the city, and then bust my "A55" at a "second job" building my cabin in the country. I work a regular 8 hour shift at work, then put in another 4 hours on the cabin - including weekends, but not Sunday. Note that you'll never "get ahead" working for someone else. Hoping that once I finish the cabin, my monthly living costs (no mortgage, cheap utility bills, no commute (I work from home now)) will be to the point I don't need to have a "punch the clock" job to make a living. I will have a job if it makes sense, but it just won't be how I define myself. It already doesn't - but shhhh.... don't tell my boss....

Wife says at that point, I can become a slumlord. buy a few duplexes, rent them out. I'm interested in doing a B&B place down at the lake here - buy a few acres, build a couple mini cabins, rent them out by the night, then pursue my real interests: inventing / music / gardening / farming / carpentry / welding / etc.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The whole idea here that I really like is living debt-free.

But you have to have a job to make money to buy materials to build your own place to live, so you have to "have a job" to get started. And you have to live while you're trying to get started - which also requires money. so you either have to have a well-paid job, or just be naturally rich. Having a well-paid job usually requires you to live in the city. Now you have to commute if you want that place in the country. Also, you have to have some training / skills to get a well-paid job (so you need school or something). so now you're an office rat, in your mid 50's, wondering why you can't live in the country. It sucks. I've been there.

Since I'm not smart at gambling (stock market), I decided to have a regular job in the city, and then bust my "A55" at a "second job" building my cabin in the country. I work a regular 8 hour shift at work, then put in another 4 hours on the cabin - including weekends, but not Sunday. Note that you'll never "get ahead" working for someone else. Hoping that once I finish the cabin, my monthly living costs (no mortgage, cheap utility bills, no commute (I work from home now)) will be to the point I don't need to have a "punch the clock" job to make a living. I will have a job if it makes sense, but it just won't be how I define myself. It already doesn't - but shhhh.... don't tell my boss....

Wife says at that point, I can become a slumlord. buy a few duplexes, rent them out. I'm interested in doing a B&B place down at the lake here - buy a few acres, build a couple mini cabins, rent them out by the night, then pursue my real interests: inventing / music / gardening / farming / carpentry / welding / etc.

We are debt free. Just this past week we ran the base family budget w/ the kids. I'm talking food, utilities, car insurance, healthcare, dental, medical, vehicle maintenance, property taxes, etc., no mortgage. The total was around $4k/month. I'm sure we could shave off a few Benjamins by cutting back in a few areas, but average life is kind of expensive.

[mudflap]

But digging a well is not more than $5k - this is a valley location - most areas in the USA have water @ 20' below the surface. Even at $65 / ft, that's $1300. Even if you figure all the bells and whistles, most folks can get a well put in for under $10k.

Most wells where I live are over 200', and I live in the valley. Last I heard the average cost to dig a well was $30-40k.

Millard county ground water levels - 20'
https://cida.usgs.gov/ngwmn/provider/US ... 112362201/

but I'm probably wrong about Utah, since these guys are saying average is about 100': https://www.zdrillerteam.com/how-deep-d ... ave-to-be/ - they max out at 200', according to these guys.

so that's going to increase the infrastructure cost quite a bit. Desert living is pricey......

But here in AL - as long as you're not on "a mountain" (what you guys would call "a hill"....), water shouldn't be more than 20-40' down:

In much of the country, water can be found in a sand layer as little as 20 feet below the surface. Professional water well drillers won’t stop there, as they want to make more money and they charge by the foot. Besides, generally speaking, deeper water will be better quality water.

~ https://www.offthegridnews.com/how-to-2 ... -pvc-pipe/


I was looking at land on a mountain here - it was 1500' above the TN river - I asked the neighbors what they did for water - they said the city had a line to supply the first 10 properties, but after that you were on your own. One guy said he had a well dug - it was over 1500' to water - basically, they drilled down to the river elevation to find him water. Cost him a bunch of cash. But this OSR place is doing it right - in a valley - not on a hill - water shouldn't be that far down. .

[mudflap]

The whole idea here that I really like is living debt-free.

But you have to have a job to make money to buy materials to build your own place to live, so you have to "have a job" to get started. And you have to live while you're trying to get started - which also requires money. so you either have to have a well-paid job, or just be naturally rich. Having a well-paid job usually requires you to live in the city. Now you have to commute if you want that place in the country. Also, you have to have some training / skills to get a well-paid job (so you need school or something). so now you're an office rat, in your mid 50's, wondering why you can't live in the country. It sucks. I've been there.

Since I'm not smart at gambling (stock market), I decided to have a regular job in the city, and then bust my "A55" at a "second job" building my cabin in the country. I work a regular 8 hour shift at work, then put in another 4 hours on the cabin - including weekends, but not Sunday. Note that you'll never "get ahead" working for someone else. Hoping that once I finish the cabin, my monthly living costs (no mortgage, cheap utility bills, no commute (I work from home now)) will be to the point I don't need to have a "punch the clock" job to make a living. I will have a job if it makes sense, but it just won't be how I define myself. It already doesn't - but shhhh.... don't tell my boss....

Wife says at that point, I can become a slumlord. buy a few duplexes, rent them out. I'm interested in doing a B&B place down at the lake here - buy a few acres, build a couple mini cabins, rent them out by the night, then pursue my real interests: inventing / music / gardening / farming / carpentry / welding / etc.

We are debt free. Just this past week we ran the base family budget w/ the kids. I'm talking food, utilities, car insurance, healthcare, dental, medical, vehicle maintenance, property taxes, etc., no mortgage. The total was around $4k/month. I'm sure we could shave off a few Benjamins by cutting back in a few areas, but average life is kind of expensive.

yeah, those monthly expenses are the pricey part.

I've always felt that "it's not how much you make - it's how much you spend."

[mudflap]

so now you're an office rat, in your mid 50's, wondering why you can't live in the country. It sucks. I've been there.

We are debt free. Just this past week we ran the base family budget w/ the kids. I'm talking food, utilities, car insurance, healthcare, dental, medical, vehicle maintenance, property taxes, etc., no mortgage. The total was around $4k/month. I'm sure we could shave off a few Benjamins by cutting back in a few areas, but average life is kind of expensive.

I hope you don't think this was directed personally at you! lol! I just re-read it - sorry! I mean "YOU" as in "EVERYMAN".