Nelson, the awesomest temple announcer

[Reluctant Watchman]

God never intended for temples to be built upon the backs of the poor. God can make a temple out of an animal skinned hut if He chose to do so.

Both Kirkland and Nauvoo temples were literally built on the backs of the poor. The Lord still demanded they be built.

Yes, that God you worship is a demanding God I guess.

A consecrated effort from the hearts of the people is very different than "demanding" it of them.

God said we would be rejected as a church if we didn't build the temple, so I would call that demanding.

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

The Law of Sacrifice is in effect. We are blessed as we sacrifice. But like I stated earlier, the Lord can make a temple out of the most humble abode.

BTW, "command" and "demand" are not even close in the spectrum of the Lord's invitations.

[Artaxerxes]

Both Kirkland and Nauvoo temples were literally built on the backs of the poor. The Lord still demanded they be built.

Yes, that God you worship is a demanding God I guess.

A consecrated effort from the hearts of the people is very different than "demanding" it of them.

God said we would be rejected as a church if we didn't build the temple, so I would call that demanding.

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

The Law of Sacrifice is in effect. We are blessed as we sacrifice. But like I stated earlier, the Lord can make a temple out of the most humble abode.

BTW, "command" and "demand" are not even close in the spectrum of the Lord's invitations.

The Lord CAN do anything. But still tells us to do His work.

You can call it anything you want. The Lord said that if people who had very little didn't build a temple, they would be rejected. So your idea that "God never intended for temples to be built upon the backs of the poor" is false.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The Lord CAN do anything. But still tells us to do His work.

You can call it anything you want. The Lord said that if people who had very little didn't build a temple, they would be rejected. So your idea that "God never intended for temples to be built upon the backs of the poor" is false.

That is incorrect. These people "had very little." They could still put food on the table. They had something. They could feed their family.

I'd suggest a closer study of the Zoramites. They rejected the poor from worshipping in the temple. Requiring an incorrect tithe is oddly similar.

[Artaxerxes]

The Lord CAN do anything. But still tells us to do His work.

You can call it anything you want. The Lord said that if people who had very little didn't build a temple, they would be rejected. So your idea that "God never intended for temples to be built upon the backs of the poor" is false.

That is incorrect. These people "had very little." They could still put food on the table. They had something. They could feed their family.

I'd suggest a closer study of the Zoramites. They rejected the poor from worshipping in the temple. Requiring an incorrect tithe is oddly similar.

I'm fairly certain that anyone in America could live the Nauvoo standard: put food on the table and live in a shack without electricity or running water. It wouldn't cost much of anything really.

No one is requiring any standard for tithing. It's just a yes or no question. No one's asking if you're paying on the net or the gross or what you're deducting or whatever. It's just if they're keeping the commandment. That's it.

[Mamabear]

The Lord CAN do anything. But still tells us to do His work.

You can call it anything you want. The Lord said that if people who had very little didn't build a temple, they would be rejected. So your idea that "God never intended for temples to be built upon the backs of the poor" is false.

That is incorrect. These people "had very little." They could still put food on the table. They had something. They could feed their family.

I'd suggest a closer study of the Zoramites. They rejected the poor from worshipping in the temple. Requiring an incorrect tithe is oddly similar.

I just read Alma 31 again yesterday…pretty eye opening. With the exception that we believe in Christ, it seems like we’re in a similar situation.
There will be latter day Almas.

[Subcomandante]

Building temples all over the world is completely necessary. There will be a time when the population will be concentrated on two seats: Independence MO and Jerusalem Israel / Palestine.

Until that time, temples need to be built where the members live.

Until that time, we are in apostasy. All those that unite with secret combinations will be destroyed. Thus saith the Lord.

Once more, immigration laws. How would you get a person from Brazil, Bulgaria, Thailand, or India over to the United States if their visa application was rejected? Would you condemn them because they wouldn't have access to a temple?

It is a good thing that the Lord is a lot more merciful than what you give credit for. The Lord works with justice and mercy.

[InfoWarrior82]

Building temples all over the world is completely necessary. There will be a time when the population will be concentrated on two seats: Independence MO and Jerusalem Israel / Palestine.

Until that time, temples need to be built where the members live.

Until that time, we are in apostasy. All those that unite with secret combinations will be destroyed. Thus saith the Lord.

Once more, immigration laws. How would you get a person from Brazil, Bulgaria, Thailand, or India over to the United States if their visa application was rejected? Would you condemn them because they wouldn't have access to a temple?

It is a good thing that the Lord is a lot more merciful than what you give credit for. The Lord works with justice and mercy.

The first step in repentance is to stop doing the bad things. The Lord will take care of the rest if we humble ourselves and admit the sin.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm fairly certain that anyone in America could live the Nauvoo standard: put food on the table and live in a shack without electricity or running water. It wouldn't cost much of anything really.

No one is requiring any standard for tithing. It's just a yes or no question. No one's asking if you're paying on the net or the gross or what you're deducting or whatever. It's just if they're keeping the commandment. That's it.

Yes, the church has a "standard" for tithing, and that is on your income.

[Artaxerxes]

I'm fairly certain that anyone in America could live the Nauvoo standard: put food on the table and live in a shack without electricity or running water. It wouldn't cost much of anything really.

No one is requiring any standard for tithing. It's just a yes or no question. No one's asking if you're paying on the net or the gross or what you're deducting or whatever. It's just if they're keeping the commandment. That's it.

Yes, the church has a "standard" for tithing, and that is on your income.

I've never heard of anyone asking any follow-ups on tithing at a temple recommend interview. The only question is whether they pay a full tithe. That's it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm fairly certain that anyone in America could live the Nauvoo standard: put food on the table and live in a shack without electricity or running water. It wouldn't cost much of anything really.

No one is requiring any standard for tithing. It's just a yes or no question. No one's asking if you're paying on the net or the gross or what you're deducting or whatever. It's just if they're keeping the commandment. That's it.

Yes, the church has a "standard" for tithing, and that is on your income.

I've never heard of anyone asking any follow-ups on tithing at a temple recommend interview. The only question is whether they pay a full tithe. That's it.

It doesn't matter if a "follow-up" question is ever asked. You have to go by what the LDS org defines as tithing, and that definition is "income." So if they ask you if you are a full tithe payer, it is assumed you are paying on your income.

[Artaxerxes]

I'm fairly certain that anyone in America could live the Nauvoo standard: put food on the table and live in a shack without electricity or running water. It wouldn't cost much of anything really.

No one is requiring any standard for tithing. It's just a yes or no question. No one's asking if you're paying on the net or the gross or what you're deducting or whatever. It's just if they're keeping the commandment. That's it.

Yes, the church has a "standard" for tithing, and that is on your income.

I've never heard of anyone asking any follow-ups on tithing at a temple recommend interview. The only question is whether they pay a full tithe. That's it.

It doesn't matter if a "follow-up" question is ever asked. You have to go by what the LDS org defines as tithing, and that definition is "income." So if they ask you if you are a full tithe payer, it is assumed you are paying on your income.

But that's the thing. They can assume anything they want. The only question is about being a full tithe payer. No one is checking your math.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Yes, the church has a "standard" for tithing, and that is on your income.

I've never heard of anyone asking any follow-ups on tithing at a temple recommend interview. The only question is whether they pay a full tithe. That's it.

It doesn't matter if a "follow-up" question is ever asked. You have to go by what the LDS org defines as tithing, and that definition is "income." So if they ask you if you are a full tithe payer, it is assumed you are paying on your income.

But that's the thing. They can assume anything they want. The only question is about being a full tithe payer. No one is checking your math.

The church teaches it is on "income". Doing otherwise would be lying. But I guess "lying for the Lord" is the MO of some church leaders, so why not.

[Artaxerxes]

I've never heard of anyone asking any follow-ups on tithing at a temple recommend interview. The only question is whether they pay a full tithe. That's it.

It doesn't matter if a "follow-up" question is ever asked. You have to go by what the LDS org defines as tithing, and that definition is "income." So if they ask you if you are a full tithe payer, it is assumed you are paying on your income.

But that's the thing. They can assume anything they want. The only question is about being a full tithe payer. No one is checking your math.

The church teaches it is on "income". Doing otherwise would be lying. But I guess "lying for the Lord" is the MO of some church leaders, so why not.

It's not lying to say what you believe to be true. Come on. This isn't that hard.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It doesn't matter if a "follow-up" question is ever asked. You have to go by what the LDS org defines as tithing, and that definition is "income." So if they ask you if you are a full tithe payer, it is assumed you are paying on your income.

But that's the thing. They can assume anything they want. The only question is about being a full tithe payer. No one is checking your math.

The church teaches it is on "income". Doing otherwise would be lying. But I guess "lying for the Lord" is the MO of some church leaders, so why not.

It's not lying to say what you believe to be true. Come on. This isn't that hard.

What are you smoking? You know the definition as clearly outlined by the LDS church. Are you saying you don't agree with how the church defines tithing?

[Christianlee]

If I gave $50 per month and called it a full tithing I would say someone would question it.

[Artaxerxes]

But that's the thing. They can assume anything they want. The only question is about being a full tithe payer. No one is checking your math.

The church teaches it is on "income". Doing otherwise would be lying. But I guess "lying for the Lord" is the MO of some church leaders, so why not.

It's not lying to say what you believe to be true. Come on. This isn't that hard.

What are you smoking? You know the definition as clearly outlined by the LDS church. Are you saying you don't agree with how the church defines tithing?

No. I'm saying they people disagree. If someone asks if I'm a Christian, my answer is yes. Does it matter to me if their definition of Christian includes the Nicean Creed and all that? No. My answer is my answer.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This quote still resides in the LDS manuals and on their website:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

[Artaxerxes]

If I gave $50 per month and called it a full tithing I would say someone would question it.

I have never heard of any bishopric member checking on someone's tithing reports as part of their interview

[Reluctant Watchman]

No. I'm saying they people disagree. If someone asks if I'm a Christian, my answer is yes. Does it matter to me if their definition of Christian includes the Nicean Creed and all that? No. My answer is my answer.

It matters significantly. The Nicean Creed is a false creed. I would never equate my belief in God/Jesus as what constitutes this creed.

[Artaxerxes]

No. I'm saying they people disagree. If someone asks if I'm a Christian, my answer is yes. Does it matter to me if their definition of Christian includes the Nicean Creed and all that? No. My answer is my answer.

It matters significantly. The Nicean Creed is a false creed. I would never equate my belief in God/Jesus as what constitutes this creed.

You missed my point. My baptist friend has a different view of what it means to be a christian than I do. If he asks if I am a Christian, my answer is yes. He may believe that I'm wrong, and that I have the wrong definition of what it means to be a Christian. I don't particularly care that he thinks I'm wrong. I will always maintain that I'm a Christian, irrespective of anyone else's definition.

[Serragon]

If I gave $50 per month and called it a full tithing I would say someone would question it.

I have never heard of any bishopric member checking on someone's tithing reports as part of their interview

It does happen occasionally, though it is almost always at the request of the member being interviewed.

Tithing records do get checked by the Stake President prior to someone being called into any position where they will be handling tithes and offerings.

[Christianlee]

This quote still resides in the LDS manuals and on their website:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

Some members simply don’t want to admit the Church forces you to purchase your salvation. “If religion were a thing that money could buy, the rich would live and the poor would die.” It sounds crass, but it is real. They claim if you can’t pay a full tithing you should just lie and claim you did. I suppose you could ask the Bishop to give you fast offerings so you could pay your tithing, but that opens up a whole new can of worms. And many Bishops would say no. As an EQ President a Bishop asked me to go through the church janitor’s budget to find a way for him to pay tithing. He had several teenagers. I went back to the Bishop and told him it wasn’t possible to meet his legitimate expenses and pay tithing. Rich church leaders don’t live in Realville. And maybe that is why we no longer have church janitors — wouldn’t pay them a living wage.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No. I'm saying they people disagree. If someone asks if I'm a Christian, my answer is yes. Does it matter to me if their definition of Christian includes the Nicean Creed and all that? No. My answer is my answer.

It matters significantly. The Nicean Creed is a false creed. I would never equate my belief in God/Jesus as what constitutes this creed.

You missed my point. My baptist friend has a different view of what it means to be a christian than I do. If he asks if I am a Christian, my answer is yes. He may believe that I'm wrong, and that I have the wrong definition of what it means to be a Christian. I don't particularly care that he thinks I'm wrong. I will always maintain that I'm a Christian, irrespective of anyone else's definition.

So you don't care what the church defines as "tithing"?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Tithing records do get checked by the Stake President prior to someone being called into any position where they will be handling tithes and offerings.

Dang... no more ward or stake callings ($$) for me. Maybe I can hold out for primary teacher. Those kids are gonna get an education...

[Christianlee]

No. I'm saying they people disagree. If someone asks if I'm a Christian, my answer is yes. Does it matter to me if their definition of Christian includes the Nicean Creed and all that? No. My answer is my answer.

It matters significantly. The Nicean Creed is a false creed. I would never equate my belief in God/Jesus as what constitutes this creed.

You missed my point. My baptist friend has a different view of what it means to be a christian than I do. If he asks if I am a Christian, my answer is yes. He may believe that I'm wrong, and that I have the wrong definition of what it means to be a Christian. I don't particularly care that he thinks I'm wrong. I will always maintain that I'm a Christian, irrespective of anyone else's definition.

So you don't care what the church defines as "tithing"?

Moral relativism claims you can lie if it is to your advantage.