God is not ok with lying.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm not sure why they chose one over the other.

Do you mind giving me some feedback as to whether my logic is sound about them not using Abraham? Do you feel they would have used him if it was an option?

I don't think they were using Abraham because Jacob pointed directly at the culprits the Nephites were using as examples. I think Jacob's only inference to Abraham is when he says the Lord may implement this practice when He sees fit. But that's just my speculation.

I do know of other writings (Nemenhah Records) where the only instance wherein this practice was sanctioned of the Lord was Abraham and Jacob... and maybe Isaac.

[Shawn Henry]

I read what you said. You said that God would cease to be God if he had told Joseph and the other members of his inner circle to keep their plural marriages secret.

That claim isn't sustainable from the scriptures.

That's because that is not my claim. You are strawmanning my claim. For the third time, I am not saying he doesn't tell and give secrets, so how about you never bring that up again? Never! Ever! Never! Ever again! Do you understand the words I have written?

Here it is again Atticus, I simple as I know how to write. Telling someone a secret or to keep a secret is fine, but God doing 'his work' in secrecy, meaning establishing the doctrine of his church, is not done in secrecy. The scriptures are quite clear speaking out against works done in the dark. God does not work in the dark, he works in the light.

How can every word be established in the mouth of two three witnesses when those witnesses lie that they are witnesses?

[Reluctant Watchman]

That's because...

You may find your time best spent banging your head against your keyboard than to continue certain conversations... you may find more enlightenment there.

[LDS Watchman]

I read what you said. You said that God would cease to be God if he had told Joseph and the other members of his inner circle to keep their plural marriages secret.

That claim isn't sustainable from the scriptures.

That's because that is not my claim. You are strawmanning my claim. For the third time, I am not saying he doesn't tell and give secrets, so how about you never bring that up again? Never! Ever! Never! Ever again! Do you understand the words I have written?

Here it is again Atticus, I simple as I know how to write. Telling someone a secret or to keep a secret is fine, but God doing 'his work' in secrecy, meaning establishing the doctrine of his church, is not done in secrecy. The scriptures are quite clear speaking out against works done in the dark. God does not work in the dark, he works in the light.

How can every word be established in the mouth of two three witnesses when those witnesses lie that they are witnesses?

I didn't set up a strawman. Here's my original question and your response:

So why is it impossible for God to instruct Joseph not to reveal that he and the others in his inner circle had more than one wife?

And if God did instruct him to keep it a secret, what would that look like?

What would that look like? It would look like God ceasing to become God because he has said that he does not work in secrecy or in darkness. He has said he does his work in the light, meaning out in the open.

Only the Devil establishes doctrines in secret inner circles. The Lord establishes doctrines in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

So as we can clearly see, you claimed that if God had instructed Joseph to keep the fact that he and the members of his inner circle had more than one wife a secret, he would cease to be God.

As for the rest, God didn't establish a doctrine for the entire church in secret. Prior to it being made public by Brigham Young in 1852, it was not a doctrine for the entire church. It was only for those individuals to whom it had been revealed. And once it was revealed publicly and given to the church at large there were a lot more than two or three witnesses who backed it up.

As you have conceded, God can reveal things in secret and command people to keep it a secret, so none of this contradicts the scriptures or would mean that God would cease to be God.

[Momma J]

Questions- Does it make it ok if God says he won't lie and is full of truth, but tells others to lie? Hmmm. How do we become like God if we lie, yet we are supposed to become full of truth like him? If I never lie, but encourage my kids to lie does that make a good parent? Do I get to then say that I am honest and bummer my kids are liars? Does that make me, the parent, a hypocrite?
These are honest questions that need to be grappled with.
Is lying different cause we are mortals dealing with mortals, but God must follow a higher law?

I do not believe that purity can be woven with deceit.

A scripture that helps to explain my view on honesty is

THE EPISTLE OF PAUL TO TITUS

Chapter 1:1-9
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. an interesting tidbit regarding monogamy

7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Scripture after scripture speak of honesty and truthfulness. God does not lie, nor does he deceive. We cannot teach our children to lie and I do not believe that God tells us or our church leaders to deceive for a greater good. This very act contradicts all that is good.

[John Tavner]

Questions- Does it make it ok if God says he won't lie and is full of truth, but tells others to lie? Hmmm. How do we become like God if we lie, yet we are supposed to become full of truth like him? If I never lie, but encourage my kids to lie does that make a good parent? Do I get to then say that I am honest and bummer my kids are liars? Does that make me, the parent, a hypocrite?
These are honest questions that need to be grappled with.
Is lying different cause we are mortals dealing with mortals, but God must follow a higher law?

I do not believe that purity can be woven with deceit.

A scripture that helps to explain my view on honesty is

THE EPISTLE OF PAUL TO TITUS

Chapter 1:1-9
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. an interesting tidbit regarding monogamy

7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Scripture after scripture speak of honesty and truthfulness. God does not lie, nor does he deceive. We cannot teach our children to lie and I do not believe that God tells us or our church leaders to deceive for a greater good. This very act contradicts all that is good.

Exactly, how can I trust God or His messengers if lying is ok sometimes? I can't. I can't trust those who represent God either. Otherwise we are no different than the Muslims who believe lying is ok to build up their kingdom. How can I see that someone is the light of hte world if they deceive. How can I teach someone that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but I myself have lied. How can I teach someone that He who seeks to save His life shall lose it, but then lie to save it, and then continue to teach that He who loses their life for God's sake shall find it? What words do I speak that are truth or not? How can they know. It is all deception and the Devil again is laughing because we are seeking to justify our leaders lyings if they have been and seeking to justify our own lyings. In the end it leads to a lying spirit dwelling within us whether or not we know it and increases our chances of being deceived when we pray.

[LDS Watchman]

That's because...

You may find your time best spent banging your head against your keyboard than to continue certain conversations... you may find more enlightenment there.

This is the same stunt your son pulled not too long ago. I get that you guys are frustrated that you have a really hard time refuting my arguments and prefer to ignore them, which is your right, but trying to rally other people to ignore them and shun me, too is just being petty and childish at this point.

[Joan7]

This is the same stunt your son pulled not too long ago. I get that you guys are frustrated that you have a really hard time refuting my arguments and prefer to ignore them, which is your right, but trying to rally other people to ignore them and shun me, too is just being petty and childish at this point.

Speaking of which, I don't recall you answering my questions upthread.

[Thinker]

…"Never do business with a mormon Bishop"…

Wise advise. Lopsided relationship - automatic trust that was never earned - sets stage for a bad deal. And Utah leads the nation in Ponzi schemes.

Most bishops I’ve had have been fine, except 1 really abused his authority in sneakily getting me into his office by asking me to stay after my child’s baptism interview… then bullied & threatened me for paying tithing to the poor rather than to the corrupt lds corporation. That in itself is horrible - but then when you consider how I was giving A LOT of free labor to him/the cultish church - it’s insane that I felt like I was in the wrong. Generally the upper church leadership & some local leaders act like entitled, gaslighting narcissists - so dysfunctional!

[LDS Watchman]

This is the same stunt your son pulled not too long ago. I get that you guys are frustrated that you have a really hard time refuting my arguments and prefer to ignore them, which is your right, but trying to rally other people to ignore them and shun me, too is just being petty and childish at this point.

Speaking of which, I don't recall you answering my questions upthread.

I don't see the correlation.

But to answer your question, no I don't believe that lying is wrong except when the prophet does it.

I believe that God sometimes commands things that would otherwise be wrong under ordinary circumstances, like Nephi killing a defenseless Laban and pretending to be him to take his property from his servant or God commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, or God commanding the Israelites to kill defenseless Canaanite babies.

If God instructed Joseph to keep his polygamy a secret, which is what I believe to be the case, then he would have had no choice but to deny it when his enemies were trying to expose what he was doing. I don't consider that to be "lying" any more than I consider Nephi killing a defenseless Laban and pretending to be Laban in order to take his property to be "murder, lying, and stealing."

This idea that God would never justify someone in "lying" is simple not supportable from the scriptures. It not a valid argument against Joseph having been a polygamist and that God was the author of the practice.

[LDS Watchman]

…"Never do business with a mormon Bishop"…

Wise advise. Lopsided relationship - automatic trust that was never earned - sets stage for a bad deal. And Utah leads the nation in Ponzi schemes.

Most bishops I’ve had have been fine, except 1 really abused his authority in sneakily getting me into his office by asking me to stay after my child’s baptism interview… then bullied & threatened me for paying tithing to the poor rather than to the corrupt lds corporation. That in itself is horrible - but then when you consider how I was giving A LOT of free labor to him/the cultish church - it’s insane that I felt like I was in the wrong. Generally the upper church leadership & some local leaders act like entitled, gaslighting narcissists - so dysfunctional!

Unless you gave the money to the Bishop or one of his counselors, you didn't pay tithing and your Bishop was right to tell you that.

[Chris]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

[Gadianton Slayer]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

Did Nephi repeatedly publicly denounce that he cut off Laban’s head?

[Thinker]

…"Never do business with a mormon Bishop"…

Wise advise. Lopsided relationship - automatic trust that was never earned - sets stage for a bad deal. And Utah leads the nation in Ponzi schemes.

Most bishops I’ve had have been fine, except 1 really abused his authority in sneakily getting me into his office by asking me to stay after my child’s baptism interview… then bullied & threatened me for paying tithing to the poor rather than to the corrupt lds corporation. That in itself is horrible - but then when you consider how I was giving A LOT of free labor to him/the cultish church - it’s insane that I felt like I was in the wrong. Generally the upper church leadership & some local leaders act like entitled, gaslighting narcissists - so dysfunctional!

Unless you gave the money to the Bishop or one of his counselors, you didn't pay tithing and your Bishop was right to tell you that.

No, my money is not his. He has no right to it. To assume he does demonstrates how mind-controlled members are.

Moreover, my God is God, not the bishop. I obey God by doing God’s will in
1) Giving to “the least of these” &
2) Not giving to those lds leaders who are DISHONEST with their fellowman.

[LDS Watchman]

…"Never do business with a mormon Bishop"…

Wise advise. Lopsided relationship - automatic trust that was never earned - sets stage for a bad deal. And Utah leads the nation in Ponzi schemes.

Most bishops I’ve had have been fine, except 1 really abused his authority in sneakily getting me into his office by asking me to stay after my child’s baptism interview… then bullied & threatened me for paying tithing to the poor rather than to the corrupt lds corporation. That in itself is horrible - but then when you consider how I was giving A LOT of free labor to him/the cultish church - it’s insane that I felt like I was in the wrong. Generally the upper church leadership & some local leaders act like entitled, gaslighting narcissists - so dysfunctional!

Unless you gave the money to the Bishop or one of his counselors, you didn't pay tithing and your Bishop was right to tell you that.

No, my money is not his. He has no right to it. To assume he does demonstrates how mind-controlled members are.

Moreover, my God is God, not the bishop. I obey God by doing God’s will in
1) Giving to “the least of these” &
2) Not giving to those lds leaders who are DISHONEST with their fellowman.

Your God commanded you to give your tithing to the Bishop.

[Thinker]

Your God commanded you to give your tithing to the Bishop.

No, that’s YOUR false god demanding worldly $$$$$$$$ MONEY. What a scam! It took me a while to see it for what it was - but glad I did!

How is your false god DISHONEST?

1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

Then there’s the long list of child sex abuse cover ups over many years, by lds leaders, & now they seemingly openly advertise…



LDS 2021 youth manual

[FrankOne]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

What point? Capital punishment is valid IMO. Nephi had full rights to execute Laban after what Laban did. If you condemn Nephi, then you'd also condemn Captain Moroni.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

What test? To follow God? Like I've said before, what Nephi did has no parrallel to what the church claims Joseph did.

[LDS Watchman]

Your God commanded you to give your tithing to the Bishop.

No, that’s YOUR false god demanding worldly $$$$$$$$ MONEY. What a scam! It took me a while to see it for what it was - but glad I did!

How is your false god DISHONEST?

1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

Then there’s the long list of child sex abuse cover ups over many years, by lds leaders, & now they seemingly openly advertise…



LDS 2021 youth manual

If you really truly believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C for the government of his church is a false God, then I would hope that you have enough integrity to no longer be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And if alternatively, you don't believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C is a false God, I would urge you to follow what he has commanded instead of your own ideas.

[Chris]

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

What point? Capital punishment is valid IMO. Nephi had full rights to execute Laban after what Laban did. If you condemn Nephi, then you'd also condemn Captain Moroni.

"Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law."

Nephi condemned murder and everything that went into killing Laban, He also was against theft and a multitude of other deceitful practices, lies and deception. Yet Nephi broke about every commandment under the book, but it was righteous because the Lord commanded him too. Point is if the Lord commands it is right and we should do it. Nephi is a perfect example. Same with Abraham in Egypt with his sister. Both of these men are honest good men, the best of men....

[FrankOne]

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

What test? To follow God? Like I've said before, what Nephi did has no parrallel to what the church claims Joseph did.

hehe... i just proposed the far side of it as a matter of discussion.

The idea behind it is that God commands not to murder/kill, yet he commanded Nephi to kill. What would have happened if he said..."no, I will not murder this drunk man" and remained steadfast in his decision? Would God have chastised him? Would he have killed Nephi for disobedience? or.... what if.... God responded : "Nephi, you have learned the greatest lesson and that is to stand by your convictions of what is moral and immoral, you will now be taught a higher law"

sure, there is the argument that Laban "deserved it". I can't say for sure what I would do in that situation because I am detached from the whole experience that Nephi had. I think I would have questioned it though. Not due to killing an obviously evil man, but instead that God caused him to be drunk in front of me....and God could have taken his life....why have me do it? Out of a test of obedience? If it was a test of obedience, then I would have refused due to the point of the contradiction itself in the underlying command not to kill and the current command to kill.

[LDS Watchman]

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

[Thinker]

If you really truly believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C for the government of his church is a false God, then I would hope that you have enough integrity to no longer be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And if alternatively, you don't believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C is a false God, I would urge you to follow what he has commanded instead of your own ideas.

Thank you for the case in point example of a significant reason why so many members suffer from depression, anxiety & other distorted thinking.

You set up a big, fat BIPOLAR, EITHER-OR scenario of lies. You copy cat your false gods who also preach in lies like, “The church is EITHER true OR it isn’t.” Is it any wonder that so many similarly think “I am EITHER excellent, OR horrible”… & they go from extremes like puffing themselves up as better than everyone… to wanting to kill themselves.

Polarized/Bipolar thinking is distorted - based on lies & not considering all truth & possibilities.

Your reasoning suggests nobody except unthinking robotic types could stay members because EVERYONE disagrees with some aspect of the church (history, policy, administration etc).

The healthy way is first to prioritize truth - God of truth - above corrupt corporate religion, even if it means being persecuted & sacrifices. Another healthy step is seeing that nobody is 100% perfect, nor 100% evil, including the lds church group of people.
Take the best, leave the rest.

[LDS Watchman]

If you really truly believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C for the government of his church is a false God, then I would hope that you have enough integrity to no longer be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And if alternatively, you don't believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C is a false God, I would urge you to follow what he has commanded instead of your own ideas.

Thank you for the case in point example of a significant reason why so many members suffer from depression, anxiety & other distorted thinking.

You set up a big, fat BIPOLAR, EITHER-OR scenario of lies. You copy cat your false gods who also preach in lies like, “The church is EITHER true OR it isn’t.” Is it any wonder that so many similarly think “I am EITHER excellent, or horrible”… & they go from extremes like puffing themselves up as better than everyone… to wanting to kill themselves.

Polarized/Bipolar thinking is distorted - based on lies & not considering all truth & possibilities.

Your reasoning suggests nobody except unthinking robotic types could stay members because EVERYONE disagrees with some aspect of the church (history, policy, administration etc).

The healthy way is first to prioritize truth - God of truth - above corrupt corporate religion, even if it meant being persecuted & sacrifices. Another healthy step is seeing that nobody is 100% perfect, nor 100% evil, including the lds church group of people.
Take the best, leave the rest.

Either the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one true church upon the earth or the restoration was a fraud. Either the revelations in the D&C are really from God or they aren't.

That's not being bipolar or worshipping a false God. These are simple facts.