God is not ok with lying.

[Reluctant Watchman]

A few thoughts I had this morning. God never condones lying. And when I say “lying”, I mean saying one thing and then doing another. God does not justify the hypocrite.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness.”

This means you should not say one thing, and then do another. This means you don’t condemn a doctrine or practice, and then practice it.

I think this commandment also means you don’t say something is true (bear your witness) unless God has spoken to your heart through the Holy Ghost.

The LDS church has held the narrative from the time of Brigham that lying for the Lord is ok… it is not. They still teach this today. I wonder if this is how many modern church Leaders justify certain behaviors.

And I do see how we confuse this with stories like Abraham, or Nephi and others. There is a big difference between using strategy and allowing others to make up their own opinions about a situation and blatant hypocrisy. I question many things in the OT, but I don’t believe the Lord has ever told his servants to openly condemn a doctrine or practice as vile, only to turn around and do it in secret and extol it as the highest form of worship.

[Luke]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

Like I said, there is a big difference between strategy and lying. The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

[Luke]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

[Luke]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

I don’t think the situations need to be identical for the principle to be the same.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The stories in scripture don’t hold a candle to the hypocrisy that is supposedly upheld in the early (and even modern) church.

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

I don’t think the situations need to be identical for the principle to be the same.

I’m not asking for an example about polygamy. I’m talking about anything. Show me where a “prophet” is clear about a doctrine or practice and then does the exact opposite (presenting the new doctrine as correct), especially in secret. You can’t.

[Luke]

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

I don’t think the situations need to be identical for the principle to be the same.

I’m not asking for an example about polygamy. I’m talking about anything. Show me where a “prophet” is clear about a doctrine or practice and then does the exact opposite (presenting the new doctrine as correct), especially in secret. You can’t.

Yeah I know you weren’t asking about polygamy.

My point is that the situations don’t have to be the same for the principle (of lying out of perceived necessity) to be the same.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

I don’t think the situations need to be identical for the principle to be the same.

I’m not asking for an example about polygamy. I’m talking about anything. Show me where a “prophet” is clear about a doctrine or practice and then does the exact opposite (presenting the new doctrine as correct), especially in secret. You can’t.

Yeah I know you weren’t asking about polygamy.

My point is that the situations don’t have to be the same for the principle (of lying out of perceived necessity) to be the same.

I’m not talking about the “principle” of using strategy or perceived deception, I’m talking about being blatantly open about one thing, teaching it publicly, repeatedly, and then doing the opposite. There’s a huge difference.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I’m honestly curious about this idea of lying for the Lord. Are there any examples in scripture where a perceived doctrine was taught, and then the Lord’s servant was asked to do the exact opposite and claim it was from the Lord. I cannot think of a single instance in all of written scripture.

[Subcomandante]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

This is the correct view. The Ishmaelite brethren call this practice Taqqiya. Mischaracterized by many in the West, it simply means to conceal information that if revealed could result in severe persecution up to and including martyrdom.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

This is the correct view. The Ishmaelite brethren call this practice Taqqiya. Mischaracterized by many in the West, it simply means to conceal information that if revealed could result in severe persecution up to and including martyrdom.

Joseph never “concealed” anything. He was extremely open in public about what was and wasn’t taught. Like I said before, there’s a huge difference.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I’d have to wrestle with this idea a bit more if Jospeh was silent about it, but he wasn’t.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I’m honestly curious about this idea of lying for the Lord. Are there any examples in scripture where a perceived doctrine was taught, and then the Lord’s servant was asked to do the exact opposite and claim it was from the Lord. I cannot think of a single instance in all of written scripture.

Oh, I just thought of an example. Children of gays parents couldn’t be baptized because it was “the will of the Lord.” That was until it again became “the will of the Lord” that they could.

But that example isn’t in our canon of scripture…. Well, actually it is scripture since it was a pronouncement from the Lord’s anointed.

[Subcomandante]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

This is the correct view. The Ishmaelite brethren call this practice Taqqiya. Mischaracterized by many in the West, it simply means to conceal information that if revealed could result in severe persecution up to and including martyrdom.

Joseph never “concealed” anything. He was extremely open in public about what was and wasn’t taught. Like I said before, there’s a huge difference.

He actually did conceal quite a bit, due to the lack of readiness of the Saints to receive it.

There were things which he knew that he didn't dare tell the Apostles, for if they received it, not only would they be against it, but they would rise up and kill him.

Later prophets likewise used similar terminology.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think the key is the following:

• Revelation 22
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sometimes circumstances require deception. Joseph and co. were happy to lie to those who were trying to get their hands on the Golden Plates about where they were. Was this wrong? I think not.

It is not necessarily wrong to lie. It is wrong to LOVE lying, i.e. to revel in deceiving your fellow men.

Same with this whole polygamy thing. I don’t think Joseph fell into the category of “loving and making a lie”—I feel that he would have rather told the world what was happening, but circumstances would not permit. When the truth (that he indeed WAS a polygamist) did come out, he was soon murdered for it.

This is the correct view. The Ishmaelite brethren call this practice Taqqiya. Mischaracterized by many in the West, it simply means to conceal information that if revealed could result in severe persecution up to and including martyrdom.

Joseph never “concealed” anything. He was extremely open in public about what was and wasn’t taught. Like I said before, there’s a huge difference.

He actually did conceal quite a bit, due to the lack of readiness of the Saints to receive it.

There were things which he knew that he didn't dare tell the Apostles, for if they received it, not only would they be against it, but they would rise up and kill him.

Later prophets likewise used similar terminology.

Conceal vs teach publicly, repeatedly, vehemently… come on Sub, you are grasping at straws here…

[Original_Intent]

Not saying all you know is not lying.
Intentionally deceiving is aa grey area - do you speak untruths, or just say things technically true but in a way to mislead? What is the motive? Lying to save your life is a different matter than lying to get gain, and worse lying to set a snare for another.

I agree that God is not OK with lying.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Not saying all you know is not lying.
Intentionally deceiving is aa grey area - do you speak untruths, or just say things technically true but in a way to mislead? What is the motive? Lying to save your life is a different matter than lying to get gain, and worse lying to set a snare for another.

I agree that God is not OK with lying.

This made me think of a conversation yesterday. We got new neighbors. They asked us if we were members. After a bit of an awkward pause, we told them we haven't attended the ward in over a year and have many questions, but we love Jesus and the Book of Mormon. I didn't have to elaborate further. I wasn't concealing anything, I just chose which bits of information were pertinent.

And yes, I agree that intent has everything to do with strategy vs striving to deceive. The Nephite army chose to use strategy to save more lives.

[Pazooka]

That is purely opinion.

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

I don’t think the situations need to be identical for the principle to be the same.

I’m not asking for an example about polygamy. I’m talking about anything. Show me where a “prophet” is clear about a doctrine or practice and then does the exact opposite (presenting the new doctrine as correct), especially in secret. You can’t.

Hosea was commanded to marry an adulterous woman

Bearing false witness is not the same as lying. False witness is geared to unjustly get someone in trouble. Not quite the same as lying to protect something sacred or to keep people from being damaged by premature disclosure.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hosea was commanded to marry an adulterous woman

Bearing false witness is not the same as lying. False witness is geared to unjustly get someone in trouble. Not quite the same as lying to protect something sacred or to keep people from being damaged by premature disclosure.

Did he openly proclaim that marrying an adulterous woman was wrong, and then went ahead and did it?

And yes, I see your nuanced view of giving a false witness vs lying, but lying is covered under that umbrella of a false witness.

As I've stated multiple times, where, in scripture, was there a repeated public announcement, only to have it rescinded and the opposite taught? Nowhere!

[Pazooka]

Hosea was commanded to marry an adulterous woman

Bearing false witness is not the same as lying. False witness is geared to unjustly get someone in trouble. Not quite the same as lying to protect something sacred or to keep people from being damaged by premature disclosure.

Did he openly proclaim that marrying an adulterous woman was wrong, and then went ahead and did it?

And yes, I see your nuanced view of giving a false witness vs lying, but lying is covered under that umbrella of a false witness.

As I've stated multiple times, where, in scripture, was there a repeated public announcement, only to have it rescinded and the opposite taught? Nowhere!

I don’t think we get to make rules for God to keep.

Have you ever thought about maybe putting this issue on the shelf for a while?

[Lexew1899]

God instructs Abraham to lie about the marital status of his wife, to avoid persecution. God tells Abraham he will be murdered if he doesn’t follow this advice.

Behold, Sarai [or Sarah], thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon; Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise: Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live”

(Abraham 2:22–23)

[TheDuke]

Joseph kept many secrets and misled people often. Usually for good, but occasionally due to his weaknesses (like the dog incident and bugle incident, and others).

"if I were to tell you all I know...you would rise up and kill me"
Joseph Smith


"On May 23, 1843, I listened to a discourse preached in the Nauvoo temple, which was then only partially finished. Brother Joseph was talking on the pre-existence of our spirits, and our relations to God in the spirit world, and our standing in the family circle of our Father. Now I am telling the truth, and I remember that while thus talking he suddenly turned around to the Apostles sitting on the stand and said in effect: 'Brethren, if I were to rell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.' Brother Joseph, addressing the Apostles, then said: 'The weight of this kingdom has been as a millstone around my neck, but I am going to roll it off on your shoulders, and then the kingdom of God will go on.' There were eleven of the Apostles present at this time. Among them I saw Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Willard Richards, Geo. A. Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor. I don't remember the others."

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hosea was commanded to marry an adulterous woman

Bearing false witness is not the same as lying. False witness is geared to unjustly get someone in trouble. Not quite the same as lying to protect something sacred or to keep people from being damaged by premature disclosure.

Did he openly proclaim that marrying an adulterous woman was wrong, and then went ahead and did it?

And yes, I see your nuanced view of giving a false witness vs lying, but lying is covered under that umbrella of a false witness.

As I've stated multiple times, where, in scripture, was there a repeated public announcement, only to have it rescinded and the opposite taught? Nowhere!

I don’t think we get to make rules for God to keep.

Have you ever thought about maybe putting this issue on the shelf for a while?

I'm trying to find out what God has said... that's the point of this thread. Where has God ever given an example like what the LDS church teaches and believes with Joseph? Nowhere.

I have a very big shelf. This issue doesn't need to be put there. It's quite clear to me.

[Luke]

Hosea was commanded to marry an adulterous woman

Bearing false witness is not the same as lying. False witness is geared to unjustly get someone in trouble. Not quite the same as lying to protect something sacred or to keep people from being damaged by premature disclosure.

Did he openly proclaim that marrying an adulterous woman was wrong, and then went ahead and did it?

And yes, I see your nuanced view of giving a false witness vs lying, but lying is covered under that umbrella of a false witness.

As I've stated multiple times, where, in scripture, was there a repeated public announcement, only to have it rescinded and the opposite taught? Nowhere!

I don’t think we get to make rules for God to keep.

Have you ever thought about maybe putting this issue on the shelf for a while?

I'm trying to find out what God has said... that's the point of this thread. Where has God ever given an example like what the LDS church teaches and believes with Joseph? Nowhere.

I have a very big shelf. This issue doesn't need to be put there. It's quite clear to me.

Why can't Joseph's actions set a precedent?

I can imagine people around Abraham flying to bits over his using deception with the Egyptians for lack of precedent.