God is not ok with lying.

[Shawn Henry]

So as we can clearly see, you claimed that if God had instructed Joseph to keep the fact that he and the members of his inner circle had more than one wife a secret, he would cease to be God.

Let me be even more simple since we are making some progress.

There are two points of fact. First, God told Joseph and his inner circle to keep a secret (or so the story goes). Second, a doctrine was introduced and established.

These are two separate things, and both can happen at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive to each other.

The one I referenced, just as you quoted me correctly, was the introduction of doctrine.

Witnesses are provided when a word is established, not years later.

There were 3 prophets, seers, and revelators in the church at that time and all three never once testified of polygamy.

[Shawn Henry]

Either the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one true church upon the earth or the restoration was a fraud. Either the revelations in the D&C are really from God or they aren't.

That's total BS and shows you don't understand the scriptures.

The church is the bride of Christ, and the scriptures teach sometimes she is faithful and sometimes she is adulterous. An adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ.

[FrankOne]

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

[LDS Watchman]

Either the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one true church upon the earth or the restoration was a fraud. Either the revelations in the D&C are really from God or they aren't.

That's total BS and shows you don't understand the scriptures.

The church is the bride of Christ, and the scriptures teach sometimes she is faithful and sometimes she is adulterous. An adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ.

It's not BS at all. Which the second half of your comment actually confirms.

The Church of Jesus Christ is either the bride of Christ or she isn't. Whether or not she has remained completely faithful or not is irrelevant to this fact.

[LDS Watchman]

So as we can clearly see, you claimed that if God had instructed Joseph to keep the fact that he and the members of his inner circle had more than one wife a secret, he would cease to be God.

Let me be even more simple since we are making some progress.

There are two points of fact. First, God told Joseph and his inner circle to keep a secret (or so the story goes). Second, a doctrine was introduced and established.

These are two separate things, and both can happen at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive to each other.

The one I referenced, just as you quoted me correctly, was the introduction of doctrine.

Witnesses are provided when a word is established, not years later.

There were 3 prophets, seers, and revelators in the church at that time and all three never once testified of polygamy.

For the third time now, your answer to my question of what would it look like if God instructed Joseph Smith to keep the fact that he and members of his inner circle had multiple wives a secret was that God would cease to be God.

That's an undeniable fact. I didn't ask "what would it look like if God commanded Joseph and his inner circle to establish an official doctrine that was binding upon the entire church in secret and then deny it."

But if your argument is that God can't have a few individuals secretly practice something or perform ordinances without it being public knowledge before it goes forth to the entire church, then I guess the church never had any authority to baptize. Because Joseph and Oliver kept the fact that they had been ordained and had baptized each other on the banks of the Susquehanna River a secret for a while.

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

[Thinker]

If you really truly believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C for the government of his church is a false God, then I would hope that you have enough integrity to no longer be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And if alternatively, you don't believe that the God who gave the revelations in the D&C is a false God, I would urge you to follow what he has commanded instead of your own ideas.

Thank you for the case in point example of a significant reason why so many members suffer from depression, anxiety & other distorted thinking.

You set up a big, fat BIPOLAR, EITHER-OR scenario of lies. You copy cat your false gods who also preach in lies like, “The church is EITHER true OR it isn’t.” Is it any wonder that so many similarly think “I am EITHER excellent, or horrible”… & they go from extremes like puffing themselves up as better than everyone… to wanting to kill themselves.

Polarized/Bipolar thinking is distorted - based on lies & not considering all truth & possibilities.

Your reasoning suggests nobody except unthinking robotic types could stay members because EVERYONE disagrees with some aspect of the church (history, policy, administration etc).

The healthy way is first to prioritize truth - God of truth - above corrupt corporate religion, even if it meant being persecuted & sacrifices. Another healthy step is seeing that nobody is 100% perfect, nor 100% evil, including the lds church group of people.
Take the best, leave the rest.

Either the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one true church upon the earth or the restoration was a fraud. Either the revelations in the D&C are really from God or they aren't.

That's not being bipolar or worshipping a false God. These are simple facts.

Agree to disagree.

[LDS Watchman]

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

[Subcomandante]

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.”

I don't think it gets any simpler than that.

Source for Joseph Smith Quote: HC 5:135

[LDS Watchman]

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.”

I don't think it gets any simpler than that.

Source for Joseph Smith Quote: HC 5:135

Agreed

[Shawn Henry]

then I guess the church never had any authority to baptize.

Lol, baptism isn't a new doctrine.

[Subcomandante]

then I guess the church never had any authority to baptize.

Lol, baptism isn't a new doctrine.

Baptism has been around in a certain form ever since Old Testament times, albeit the practice was quite different than what we are accustomed to.

[FrankOne]

I'll take the far side on that and propose this:

Nephi failed the test.

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

with no disrespect in the least: I know my Father and you know yours. We'll see where this all goes on the other side.

[LDS Watchman]

then I guess the church never had any authority to baptize.

Lol, baptism isn't a new doctrine.

The necessity of being ordained to the Aaronic priesthood in order to perform a valid baptism was definitely new to the people at that time.

And both the proper mode of baptism and Celestial plural marriage were practiced anciently. Neither was actually new, but both had to be restored.

[LDS Watchman]

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

with no disrespect in the least: I know my Father and you know yours. We'll see where this all goes on the other side.

Yes, I guess we will. I have faith that the God of Abraham and Nephi is the true God.

[John Tavner]

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

with no disrespect in the least: I know my Father and you know yours. We'll see where this all goes on the other side.

Yes, I guess we will. I have faith that the God of Abraham and Nephi is the true God.

The key is to seek God yourself and know Him for yourself. Having faith in the God someone else talks about only gets you so far. You have to know Him. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

[LDS Watchman]

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

with no disrespect in the least: I know my Father and you know yours. We'll see where this all goes on the other side.

Yes, I guess we will. I have faith that the God of Abraham and Nephi is the true God.

The key is to seek God yourself and know Him for yourself. Having faith in the God someone else talks about only gets you so far. You have to know Him. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Yes, knowing God for yourself is the goal. But exercising faith precedes sure knowledge. Abraham and Nephi did this, they knew God. Their God is the one true God.

[John Tavner]

with no disrespect in the least: I know my Father and you know yours. We'll see where this all goes on the other side.

Yes, I guess we will. I have faith that the God of Abraham and Nephi is the true God.

The key is to seek God yourself and know Him for yourself. Having faith in the God someone else talks about only gets you so far. You have to know Him. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Yes, knowing God for yourself is the goal. But exercising faith precedes sure knowledge. Abraham and Nephi did this, they knew God. Their God is the one true God.

You don't know that until you know God yourself- that is my point- all you are doing is exercising faith and you won't know if it is true or not until the fruit manifests and you partake of it. I also don't think one has to "see" God to have sure knowledge. Lot's of people see God and don't at all act like Him or look like Him in their countenance - knowing He exists is different than Knowing Him.

Put a different way, the original Apostles who were with Jesus on the earth were with Him, but they didn't know Him until the Spirit was inside of them. Then they Knew Him - before that, they didn't look anything like Him, they misunderstood Him, they were scared, they didn't want to ask questions, they betrayed Him, they lied, they fought with one another and they sought power and glory of man - only after the Spirit came upon them did they know Him - even though they knew He was real even though they walked with Him and chatted with Him, they didn't really know Him until they were baptized with Fire and the Holy Ghost and then they knew because they became one with Him. Even with the Spirit though we can fail to know Him like the Lord wants if we are not willing to conform to His Image; as we let the Spirit transform us into His image we know Him more and more. It is why we must "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Him"

[LDS Watchman]

Yes, I guess we will. I have faith that the God of Abraham and Nephi is the true God.

The key is to seek God yourself and know Him for yourself. Having faith in the God someone else talks about only gets you so far. You have to know Him. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Yes, knowing God for yourself is the goal. But exercising faith precedes sure knowledge. Abraham and Nephi did this, they knew God. Their God is the one true God.

You don't know that until you know God yourself- that is my point- all you are doing is exercising faith and you won't know if it is true or not until the fruit manifests and you partake of it. I also don't think one has to "see" God to have sure knowledge. Lot's of people see God and don't at all act like Him or look like Him in their countenance - knowing He exists is different than Knowing Him.

Put a different way, the original Apostles who were with Jesus on the earth were with Him, but they didn't know Him until the Spirit was inside of them. Then they Knew Him - before that, they didn't look anything like Him, they misunderstood Him, they were scared, they didn't want to ask questions, they betrayed Him, they lied, they fought with one another and they sought power and glory of man - only after the Spirit came upon them did they know Him - even though they knew He was real even though they walked with Him and chatted with Him, they didn't really know Him until they were baptized with Fire and the Holy Ghost and then they knew because they became one with Him. Even with the Spirit though we can fail to know Him like the Lord wants if we are not willing to conform to His Image; as we let the Spirit transform us into His image we know Him more and more. It is why we must "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Him"

I know God. I have received a witness of the Holy Ghost that he is real. I've felt his love. I've felt his forgiveness. I have received knowledge from him by the power of the Holy Ghost and through other witnesses. I know that the scriptures are true. I know that the God of the scriptures is the true God. So I guess maybe I shouldn't have used the word faith, because I know these things to be true.

[John Tavner]

The key is to seek God yourself and know Him for yourself. Having faith in the God someone else talks about only gets you so far. You have to know Him. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Yes, knowing God for yourself is the goal. But exercising faith precedes sure knowledge. Abraham and Nephi did this, they knew God. Their God is the one true God.

You don't know that until you know God yourself- that is my point- all you are doing is exercising faith and you won't know if it is true or not until the fruit manifests and you partake of it. I also don't think one has to "see" God to have sure knowledge. Lot's of people see God and don't at all act like Him or look like Him in their countenance - knowing He exists is different than Knowing Him.

Put a different way, the original Apostles who were with Jesus on the earth were with Him, but they didn't know Him until the Spirit was inside of them. Then they Knew Him - before that, they didn't look anything like Him, they misunderstood Him, they were scared, they didn't want to ask questions, they betrayed Him, they lied, they fought with one another and they sought power and glory of man - only after the Spirit came upon them did they know Him - even though they knew He was real even though they walked with Him and chatted with Him, they didn't really know Him until they were baptized with Fire and the Holy Ghost and then they knew because they became one with Him. Even with the Spirit though we can fail to know Him like the Lord wants if we are not willing to conform to His Image; as we let the Spirit transform us into His image we know Him more and more. It is why we must "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Him"

I know God. I have received a witness of the Holy Ghost that he is real. I've felt his love. I've felt his forgiveness. I have received knowledge from him by the power of the Holy Ghost and through other witnesses. I know that the scriptures are true. I know that the God of the scriptures is the true God. So I guess maybe I shouldn't have used the word faith, because I know these things to be true.

That is great you know those things, but again, my point is knowing things about Him isn't knowing Him. At most it is knowing that He can be forgiving and knowing He can be loving - I know lots of people that have experienced that but live in condemnation because they think they messed up too far - which is not from God. Feeling His love is different than becoming His love and manifesting it to others. Feeling His forgiveness is different than becoming forgiven and forgiving those around you without a need for request or action on their part. It is knowing you are a Son and living like a Son, it is becoming one with Him. I'm saying there is more, I'm not saying what you know is wrong, just that there is more. Most of us stop at knowing those things you described, but when The Spirit of God inside of us begins to transform us in His image because we give it permission through submission, it is deeper. There is more, there is more.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law.

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

What point? Capital punishment is valid IMO. Nephi had full rights to execute Laban after what Laban did. If you condemn Nephi, then you'd also condemn Captain Moroni.

"Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law."

Nephi condemned murder and everything that went into killing Laban, He also was against theft and a multitude of other deceitful practices, lies and deception. Yet Nephi broke about every commandment under the book, but it was righteous because the Lord commanded him too. Point is if the Lord commands it is right and we should do it. Nephi is a perfect example. Same with Abraham in Egypt with his sister. Both of these men are honest good men, the best of men....

Taking a life and murder are worlds apart. Nephi also made swords and fought w the sword. He killed people and he wasn't breaking a commandment.

[LDS Watchman]

Yes, knowing God for yourself is the goal. But exercising faith precedes sure knowledge. Abraham and Nephi did this, they knew God. Their God is the one true God.

You don't know that until you know God yourself- that is my point- all you are doing is exercising faith and you won't know if it is true or not until the fruit manifests and you partake of it. I also don't think one has to "see" God to have sure knowledge. Lot's of people see God and don't at all act like Him or look like Him in their countenance - knowing He exists is different than Knowing Him.

Put a different way, the original Apostles who were with Jesus on the earth were with Him, but they didn't know Him until the Spirit was inside of them. Then they Knew Him - before that, they didn't look anything like Him, they misunderstood Him, they were scared, they didn't want to ask questions, they betrayed Him, they lied, they fought with one another and they sought power and glory of man - only after the Spirit came upon them did they know Him - even though they knew He was real even though they walked with Him and chatted with Him, they didn't really know Him until they were baptized with Fire and the Holy Ghost and then they knew because they became one with Him. Even with the Spirit though we can fail to know Him like the Lord wants if we are not willing to conform to His Image; as we let the Spirit transform us into His image we know Him more and more. It is why we must "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Him"

I know God. I have received a witness of the Holy Ghost that he is real. I've felt his love. I've felt his forgiveness. I have received knowledge from him by the power of the Holy Ghost and through other witnesses. I know that the scriptures are true. I know that the God of the scriptures is the true God. So I guess maybe I shouldn't have used the word faith, because I know these things to be true.

That is great you know those things, but again, my point is knowing things about Him isn't knowing Him. At most it is knowing that He can be forgiving and knowing He can be loving - I know lots of people that have experienced that but live in condemnation because they think they messed up too far - which is not from God. Feeling His love is different than becoming His love and manifesting it to others. Feeling His forgiveness is different than becoming forgiven and forgiving those around you without a need for request or action on their part. It is knowing you are a Son and living like a Son, it is becoming one with Him. I'm saying there is more, I'm not saying what you know is wrong, just that there is more. Most of us stop at knowing those things you described, but when The Spirit of God inside of us begins to transform us in His image because we give it permission through submission, it is deeper. There is more, there is more.

I know God. I don't just know about him. And I haven't just felt forgiveness, I've been forgiven.

But I freely admit that I don't yet know God perfectly and still have a long way to go as far as becoming like him is concerned.

[LDS Watchman]

Nephi chopped of Laban's head, does that not prove the point?

What point? Capital punishment is valid IMO. Nephi had full rights to execute Laban after what Laban did. If you condemn Nephi, then you'd also condemn Captain Moroni.

"Show me any example in scripture where a “prophet” vehemently condemned a practice, and then went ahead and did it and called it a higher law."

Nephi condemned murder and everything that went into killing Laban, He also was against theft and a multitude of other deceitful practices, lies and deception. Yet Nephi broke about every commandment under the book, but it was righteous because the Lord commanded him too. Point is if the Lord commands it is right and we should do it. Nephi is a perfect example. Same with Abraham in Egypt with his sister. Both of these men are honest good men, the best of men....

Taking a life and murder are worlds apart. Nephi also made swords and fought w the sword. He killed people and he wasn't breaking a commandment.

Killing a defenseless man who isn't posing a threat and is passed out on the street and then impersonating him in order to deceive his servant, and taking his property, would ordinarily be murder, lying, and stealing. There's no question about that. The only reason what Nephi did wasn't a violation of three of the most basic commandments God has given is that God commanded it.

And if God was able to justify Nephi in committing what would otherwise be murder, deceit, and robbery, there's no reason why he couldn't have commanded Joseph to marry more than one woman, have others do the same, and tell them to keep it a secret.

This argument about lying just doesn't hold up.

[JLHPROF]

That would be a real bummer Frank. That would mean that we can't trust anything he said or anything else in the Book of Mormon, either.

Is that really the road you want to go down?

Of course it is the road I wish to travel that's why I'm on it.

from what you've said, we can't trust God when he commands us to do anything at all. Is this confusing? Of course it is!

When God commands us to not kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery....we're supposed to trust him, right? Why does he command such things? Moral Law. Universal Law. Original Law.

Then if he commands us to disregard what he commands...where does that leave us? Hm... So..Which do I obey?

The commandment to follow moral law or the commandment to break moral law?

Which of these two sounds like it makes the most sense?

See, I know where I stand,.... do you?

I believe in the God described in the scriptures. The God who commanded though shalt not kill while also sometimes commanding that his people kill. The God who condemned child sacrifice in the strongest possible terms, but also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

In order to know this God and his will, we have to become acquainted with his voice and be able to recognize his voice from all the others, like Nephi and Abraham obviously were.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.”

I don't think it gets any simpler than that.

Source for Joseph Smith Quote: HC 5:135

Agreed.
It's been my experience whenever someone says "God wouldn't do that" they usually mean "I don't like that".
God does and has done many things people think are wrong. His ways are not our ways.
Whatever God commands is right. Including lying to the wicked or heathen, even about plural marriages.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Sub, God isn't a hypocrite.

[Joan7]

Is it the Character of God to Command a Man to Lie All the Time?

What does that do to the man?

How does a righteous man feel, when he looks into the eyes of his wife and lies continuously?

Would a Good God implement a standing law, which He knows will canker His child's soul?

If God gave a law to nearly every other person, and commanded one, or a few, to violate that law, not once, but every day for years, would God cease to be God?