Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

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randyps
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Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!

It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity

randyps
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Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is, maybe I could have just said doubt in my faith led to the demonic experience and left the iron rod part out, but nevertheless both are true.

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
I'm sorry you had to see that happen, especially with the mother of your children. We all have those who we love who have fallen into strange paths.

However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation. When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.

And in all this we greatly err, as they erred in dispensations past.

We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by LDS Physician »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!
I recommend reading the BoM, Isaiah, the D&C ... those are a great start. You'll see that in the last days the prophets/priests lapse into apostacy, are not in communication with God, love money/power, and will be removed out of their place by the Lord.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by Shawn Henry »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building.
That spirit could never give you any such indication when your own spirit is dead set against it. The spirit speaks to us in our language according to our understanding. What is your understanding? It is one that only accepts infallibility. This why we are told to be childlike, always asking questions, so that we stay open minded and don't shut down avenues for the spirit to speak to us.

If it could happen with Judas, it can definitely happen today.

larsenb
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by larsenb »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is, maybe I could have just said doubt in my faith led to the demonic experience and left the iron rod part out, but nevertheless both are true.
Ah, the good old Course in 'Miracles'. The lady who channeled that later came to hate her involvement with the whole thing, last I heard. The book was the focus for someone close to me, and I had dig into it a bit in order to point out its illogicalities and convince this person to let go of it. Luckily, I had some success at this. It did emphasize the importance of cross-transactions, i.e., turning the other cheek, however . . . . which was good.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by Subcomandante »

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!

It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
The iron rod is meant to be the Scriptures. Sadly, however, there are many that intersperse western ideals with clearly eastern Scriptures, and LOTS of things get lost in translation.

randyps
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Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

larsenb wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:12 pm
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is, maybe I could have just said doubt in my faith led to the demonic experience and left the iron rod part out, but nevertheless both are true.
Ah, the good old Course in 'Miracles'. The lady who channeled that later came to hate her involvement with the whole thing, last I heard. The book was the focus for someone close to me, and I had dig into it a bit in order to point out its illogicalities and convince this person to let go of it. Luckily, I had some success at this. It did emphasize the importance of cross-transactions, i.e., turning the other cheek, however . . . . which was good.
Course in Miracles came at the precise time and did just enough to seal the deal in turning her away from Christ to being gnostic.
That was 7yrs ago and after a few years she slowly started to let go of it and gravitated toward what interested her when she was a kid, astrology. I feel its just a matter of time that she come full circle and come back to Christ. She recently said she would sit with me in sacrament if I wanted to go back to church, that was a big surprise to hear from her.

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

Subcomandante wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:20 pm
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!

It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
The iron rod is meant to be the Scriptures. Sadly, however, there are many that intersperse western ideals with clearly eastern Scriptures, and LOTS of things get lost in translation.

If you think the iron rod is limited to the scriptures then you are missing Nephi’s message.

randyps
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation.
When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.
This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.


cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.
Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation.
When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.
This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.


cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.
Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.

randyps
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Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am


It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation.
When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.
This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.


cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.
Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

Let me also add that all churchs are true and serve great purposes to help mankind but the LDS church is the only one that has the ordinances and authority to the celestial kingdom. I posted in another thread but God pretty much showed me that I was on the celestial path back when I was a worthy temple recommend holder in 1998, in 2015 I started to go inactive and couldnt renew my TR due to slight changes in my lifestyle which was not TR worthy...I told God I was happy with being inactive and he was happy for me but in 2021 he showed me that I was no longer on the path to celestial glory, rather I was living a life worthy of a telestial state of glory.

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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by nightlight »

Subcomandante wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:20 pm
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 1:39 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 12:42 am I created a new topic because I feel this message is important to reach as much as possible and not get lost in the other threads.

I had a day-time vision at 19 while on my mission back in 1998. We walked into an investigators house and he had the TV on, we had to ask him to turn it off because as missionaries we do not watch TV or listen to radio. Before he could turn it off I was able to see that he was watching the American Grammy Award show, there was an artist performing on stage and the camera panned the crowd for a few seconds. I distinctly remember Mike Tysons smiling face along with all the other popular celebrities in the crowd laughing and having a good time. The spirit testified to me that these are the classification of people that exist in the great and spacious building, people that love the world and money more then God. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that these people are going to hell or are evil humans, nope, just that they love the world more then God.

Never in my life of watching church conferences, talks, firesides, sacrament meetings etc.., has the spirit told me that any leader of our church is a candidate for the great and spacious building. So as much as you guys continually accuse GA leaders of loving money more then God, I cannot agree. Do some of the financial dealing of the church not make sense to those of us with limited access to the facts? maybe, but who cares, we are not here for a financial degree we are here to grow spiritually, serve and be edified by the spirit.

I did have an experience about 7yrs ago in sacrament when the 1st counselor in the stake presidency was giving a talk, he was so monotone and boring that I began to go in and out of conscious, suddenly an evil presence came over me and I looked at the 1st counselor on the podium and saw a demon in his countenance. I walked out into the hallway to snap out of this trance. This was the same year my wife left the church and tried her hardest to keep my kids from attending with me, satan was working on my family and getting to me, Over the course of that year I eventually lost self esteem and motivation to attend church by myself and went inactive.

This demonic experience had nothing to do with the 1st counselor on the podium, on that day satan (and some of you in here) would have me believe that he was a devil worshipper, disciple of satan, or loves money more than God. Nope, It was about me losing my faith and letting go of the iron rod allowing satan to "attempt" to deceive me to convince me that the leaders are not Gods leaders and the church is not Gods church. I have personally known this 1st counselor and his family for many years and he is one of the most humble guys I know he is definitely one of Gods soldiers.

I have been blessed to have such dramatic experiences that allow me to know what is truth and what is deception, It would be selfish of me to not share, I humbly leave my testimony with you guys in the name of our savior Jesus Christ amen!

It saddens me when the iron rod is understood to be church fidelity and activity
The iron rod is meant to be the Scriptures. Sadly, however, there are many that intersperse western ideals with clearly eastern Scriptures, and LOTS of things get lost in translation.
The iron rod is the word/spirit of God. Scriptures are just a branch of it

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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by EvanLM »

randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation.
When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.
This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.


cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.
Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

Let me also add that all churchs are true and serve great purposes to help mankind but the LDS church is the only one that has the ordinances and authority to the celestial kingdom. I posted in another thread but God pretty much showed me that I was on the celestial path back when I was a worthy temple recommend holder in 1998, in 2015 I started to go inactive and couldnt renew my TR due to slight changes in my lifestyle which was not TR worthy...I told God I was happy with being inactive and he was happy for me but in 2021 he showed me that I was no longer on the path to celestial glory, rather I was living a life worthy of a telestial state of glory.

I don't believe that all churches are true

you are right and God will continue to call your wife and you back, however, you will respond as you wish . . . now I have an opinion to add to this since I personally started out real good then sinned then repented and am fully active again. However, I am most disappointed in other saints as well as leaders BUT I can't be drug to hell by staying in this church. God called me back. This is Christ's great church that will lead me to salvation regardless of any prophets and members blunders.

so here's the new twist that I am pondering. Let me set it up. first of all, we know that anyone can apostatize even our leaders. we know that there are those who claim to be members and apostates that seem to love getting people to support their position and leave the church. BUT . . the most unusual thing that I find in the church in the last 10 years is that there is a lot more truth being printed and preached as well as the lies deceptions and man made doctrine. They truth and deception seem to run parallel. And the truth is NOT coming from the apostates on this forum or any other. It is coming from the church manuals. Let that sink . . . church manuals

So I am studying about Soloman using the current and revised institute manual. Ponder this stuff for a minute or two.

Quote out of manual: "Solomon's career began in a most promising way as anyone's . . .Israel had finally reached the borders that were to be hers, according to the Lord's promise . . "

poster's note: soloman only asked the Lord for wisdom and he did NOT ask for wealth, remember?

Quote from manual: "Soloman allowed his love for material things AND his great accomplishments as a builder to wean him from his early devotion to the Lord. True, he achieved great fame while the temple was being built, and his dedication of the house of the Lord was one of his most spiritual moments; but later, when the Queen of Sheba and other foreign visitors paid their respects, they said little about soloman's righteousness or wisdom.

Rather, they expressed amazement and awe at his tremendous achievements in building.

Soloman appears to have grown hungry for the plaudits of men. He decided to construct even grander structures. (poster's note:grander than the temple) To do so, he enforced heavy taxation on his people--so heavy that he eventually forced his people into poverty.

Mismanagement of the wealth left Israel tottering.

Is affluence in the church a problem today? Why? do we sometimes forget the instructions given by the Savior in Matthew 6:33?

We, as modern Israel, need to avoid pride, misuse of wealth, and lust for the world's esteem--three temptations that beset Soloman and led to his downfall. Are we any different? Because Soloman lost his blessing from the Lord. he lost it. " END OF QUOTE

point 1: this sure is NOT talking about me cuz I don't have an earthly position like Solomon. It has to be talking about our GAs from prophets on down to local.

point 2: this is in our very own church study manual . . not an outside source . . not a griper from this forum . .. not an apostate. I got it right out of the manual ---Old Testament Study Manual Religion 302 pages 10 - 11 . . revised new edition that has things I never, never , never read in the older manuals . . . what members of this church do YOU think this condemns? Think of the background of most of our GAs including the women and men. They have temptations that I don't, now don't they?

point 3: Even though Soloman was a King and not a prophet or seventy or mission pres or stake pres or regional rep or so on and so on and so on . . . Soloman was still responsible under the covenant and laws to care for the people of Israel and make sure that their TEMPORAL needs were met. He was appointed by God through the prophets and administrated by rights of the law and was supposed to sustain the Israel law in his judgments.

So our leaders are called by God, responsible for the temporal needs of the covenant people (let me mention here that there are NOT responsible for the temporal needs of the world which doesn't mean that they shouldn't help the world but means that the covenant people come before anything else) which is administered under the hand of Jesus Christ through the priesthood and laws of the church. You know what I'm saying.

So is the pot calling the kettle black, in this manual, or is the Lord inspiring even authors of manuals in our church to write in a way that it becomes obvious when men and women have fallen? I just can't believe that the conclusion presented here was uninspired nor the works of an apostate or angry church member. I think it is inspired for yours and my reading and consideration. It is a possibility that this can happen to any and all leaders who are called by God.

When finding truth then first you will need to be willing to accept it with the promise of being faithful to God and Jesus even if the truth shakes your core. They have no desire to lose you with the doctrine and justice that they expect you and everyone in their church to follow. So when you pray about it be willing to stay true or you might not get an answer. Don't satisfy your lusts.

The weakness or sins of anyone in this church cannot prevent you from getting your salvation as long as you are faithful to the gospel and our Gods.

Now, could this be a problem in our church? I think, cuz i have seen this church parade themselves around a lot and have heard the comments from the top(general authorities) down to the lowest member of how wealthy and current this church is. Preachers ask a GA, who reports it in conference..."How did you do this?" The humble answer, as reported in GC is always the Joseph Smith line . . .we didn't, like JS said we teach and the members just follow . . . or whatever than dumb quote is. It is dumb cuz it is always related in GC to the wrong thing.

so here you go and google some more if you would like:

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is considered to be one of the fastest-growing and richest religions in the world. Its members are called Mormons and can be found everywhere, from Scandinavia to Japan. At the turn of the 21st century, Mormon assets were already being estimated to be at over $30 billion. It also has an annual revenue of $6 billion, with nearly 90 percent of the amount coming from member contributions called tithing, in which members are required to give 10 percent of their entire income.

3. Judaism

Those practicing Judaism are said to have accumulated the most wealth among all believers in religions in the United States. This is not stereotype profiling, as Jews are known to be adept in the world of business. It actually came from a sociological research done in the country. Though Judaism is monotheist, it is not homogenous as it does have a lot of different views. The largest streams and movements are Rabbinic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. Aside from its homeland in Israel, its members also have enough economic clout in the United States to form a powerful lobby that can influence and sway the decisions of political leaders.

2. Islam

Islam is a monotheistic religion that is the second largest and one of the fastest growing in the world. While Muslims are found all over the world, most of them live in sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia, South Asia and the Middle East. As a result, Muslims actually have control of the abundant oil found in the Middle East. Some of the richest countries in the world follow strict Islamic laws. Estimates in 2012 put the assets of the Islamic financial industry alone to be at nearly $1.6 trillion.

1. Roman Catholic Church

Catholic priests are expected to make a vow of poverty, so it is ironic that the church is actually the richest religion in the world. The Catholic Church owns some of the greatest art works ever made. It also has vast gold deposits and billions of dollars in assets. It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state. It also has more than a billion members around the world.

POSTER'S note: this article is only for the purpose of expressing the wealth of the church

This story is being co-published with Religion Unplugged.

A whistleblower complaint filed at the Internal Revenue Service in November by a knowledgeable church member alleges that a non-profit supporting organization controlled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints used member tithes to amass more than $100 billion in a set of investment funds and the Church misled members about uses of the money.

The complaint may be the most important look at LDS finances in decades, a window into one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the United States and the world. Details of the IRS filing reveal financial assets largely hidden from the church's membership (often known as "Mormons") and the public view.

’s also double that of the Roman Catholic Church, which has roughly 1.3 billion members and holds assets of $50 billion. That’s a little more than $38 per member. For Latter-day Saints, who have 16.3 million members, our church’s wealth translates to about $6,130 per member, or 161 times the Catholics’ money-to-member ratio.


From thousands of acres of farmlands to thousands of places of worship and from shiny commercial enclaves in urban centers to flowing fields in swelling suburbs, a newly released list shows The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns U.S. properties valued at nearly $16 billion and ranks the Utah-based faith among the nation’s top private landholders.

It may be no surprise that a growing pioneer-era church with millions of members — and devoted to acquiring land, cultivating crops, erecting temples and building Zion — would today hold vast expanses of property.

Still, the sheer scope of church-held domestic real estate yields mind-stretching numbers. And the findings emerge when many Latter-day Saints and church observers are already agog at other recently reported multibillion-dollar figures associated with the faith’s wealth.

This latest cache of data — captured in 2020 and released Tuesday by the Truth & Transparency Foundation (formerly known as MormonLeaks) — reveals a nearly 16,000-parcel collection of 1.7 million acres held by identified LDS Church firms. While the list is not complete, it nonetheless shows church lands in every state, just about every sizable metropolitan area and big blankets of territory in between.

[You can search for U.S. properties owned by the LDS Church here. Find properties on a map here or



AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON . . . . cuz these don't mention investments that will actually be lost when the stockmarket craps out . .and already a lot of money has been lost, I just can't find the stories fast. I think that the church is putting more literature on the net to dispell their wealth than they use to put out cuz 10 years ago they loved the brag articles about our wealth.

Anyway, Temples, temples, Temples. . . all with subdivisions and lots of developed property by contracting companies owned by their kids and friends. City streets improved by the church, farms and wooded acreage, cows and crops. Lots of empty new buildings that house masses of people, historic sites galore. Their attention is turned to other things than lifting their members while I went to some of the most horrible church houses in Ogden Utah that should have been condemned. A sure reality of what our leaders feel about their members. Not worth putting them in a nice building. rather have a temple that is only half or fourth full all the time. Better bragging rights.

PERHAPS, like soloman, they like to rub shoulders with Queens and are proud of their accomplishments in buildings and acreage and investments that have nothing to do with salvation. I do NOT believe that they have put the people of the church in poverty but I do think they have changed their focus and the focus of a whole church membership.

Solomon wrote proverbs . . lots of talk . . loss of action. GAs write lots of books . . lots of talk . . . well . . hmmmm . . . their actions are the reality that you see. I am not willing to state an opinion on that but truth is always shown in reality. You cannot accept the opinion of the powerful if it is against the reality that you see.- And, brother that is only fair to not influence your reality.

No matter how much wisdom Solomon had, it did not save Israel or him when he changed his focus. No matter how much wisdom our leaders have or seem to have when they speak to the world in news articles, GC, journals, etc. it will not save us or help us temporally if they . . . well . . . ugh

may god have mercy

EvanLM
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by EvanLM »

this thought had to be separate . . .I think I would rather be in the right place in the end than start out good then end up in the wrong place at the finish. Feel somewhat bad about my years of sinning but am glad to be back and plan to endure this time.

thank you Jesus for the atonement

EvanLM
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by EvanLM »

hope you guys don't mind this funny story but . . I had some friends in Utah . . a couple . .still quite young and good looking people with three daughters now in their teens.

so they tell me that they married just past high school had always been together and at one point in their marriage they just divorced and went astray. They both said that they had sex with everybody they could and just went crazy. Later, they decided to remarry and repent. They were ward missionaries at the time that they told me.

They were totally since about their repentance and totally commited at that time. I didn't ever hear them whine or bemoan their past or hang their head or . . . Nor did they bemoan any one elses sins including their daughters' or family's or anyone in the ward or the church or the world. Totally cool people that just went off the tracks for a while. God called them back.

I am still laughing over their story. Even when they told me then we were laughing cuz they were back and happy. Great people. honest and good, without making you feel their personal drama

EvanLM
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by EvanLM »

woops sincere bout repentance

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am
randyps wrote: July 5th, 2022, 2:21 am Forgive me for not going into detail..

My wife left the church because she felt "used and abused" emotionally her entire life of being a member, she went full on Anti-Mormon and eventually no longer believed in Christianity because she studied A Course in Miracles which taught her that Jesus was just a man and not a divine being, she wanted nothing to do with any more religion. She found tarot cards and astrology as her new belief system and started teaching that to our kids while telling them how christianity is not true eventually turning my kids against the church.

Id rather not explain the full details of my inactivity but trust that I do know what the iron rod is.
cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am However, it is my firm belief that those of our religion who fall away from the Lord often do so because the church itself caused them to build on a sandy foundation.
When our faith and trust is built upon a foundation of the truthfulness of an institution (e.g. endless testimonies of "the church is true") OR our own obedience (e.g. doctrine of "self reliance" and "making and keeping covenants"), then it can and must fall. A living witness and spiritual relationship with Jesus is the only foundation which will stand the test of time - and the church often fails miserably in this regard because of all the surrogates and substitutes and idols it offers instead of Him.

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.

cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am Our leaders are one such surrogate replacement for where our worship and trust should actually be. We treat them like celebrities. We stand when they enter the room, hang on their every word, and reverence their very presence. They elevate themselves likewise and expect such adoration. We believe they can never lead us astray. They believe they are unable to go astray by virtue of the office they hold.
This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.


cab wrote: July 5th, 2022, 3:45 am We must be taught to wholly rely on Jesus - not on an institution (with its leaders, scriptures, covenant path, fine temples, etc) OR our own merits. Jesus and His spirit are the Word of God we must plant in our hearts. He is The Word we must cling to and follow - the iron rod. We must lay our lives down before Him as a living sacrifice. Then, He alone allows us to taste the sweet nectar of His pure love. He alone bestows upon us the heavenly gift of charity... All else will fail - as we will all see.
Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

This is a myopic view. I very much believe. But that belief is not necessarily tied to the “all or nothing” truth claims which the Church likes to place upon itself.

There is a true Path and Gospel. This can be obtained by anyone who diligently seeks it, regardless of whether or not an institution has deviated from it or espouses it.

I invite you to consider the possibility that the church may find itself in a similar condition as the ancient Israelite church. Perhaps your level of activity within the church has far FAR less bearing on your worthiness before God than your relationship with Him.

He alone is mighty to save and redeem - and He will. Give your life to Him and don’t let an institution’s checklist determine how worthy you think you are.
Last edited by cab on July 12th, 2022, 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

randyps
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 8:25 pm
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am


FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.



This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.




Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

This is a myopic view. I very much believe. But that belief is not necessarily tied to the “all or nothing” truth claims which the Church to place upon itself.

There is a true Path and Gospel. This can be obtained by anyone who diligently seeks it, regardless of whether or not an institution has deviated.

I invite you to consider the possibility that the church may have fallen into apostasy since the days of Joseph in a similar way the Israelite church did in ancient days. And if so, then your activity within that church has far FAR less bearing on your worthiness before God than your relationship with Him. He alone is mighty to save and redeem - and He will. Give your life to Him and don’t let an institution’s checklist determine how worthy you think you are.
I want to understand what you think of the following....please answer each number.

1. Is breaking the word of wisdom an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
2. Is not paying tithing an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
3. Is pornography an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
4. Is not going to church every sunday an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
5. Is not doing ministering assignments an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:32 am
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 8:25 pm
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am


Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

This is a myopic view. I very much believe. But that belief is not necessarily tied to the “all or nothing” truth claims which the Church to place upon itself.

There is a true Path and Gospel. This can be obtained by anyone who diligently seeks it, regardless of whether or not an institution has deviated.

I invite you to consider the possibility that the church may have fallen into apostasy since the days of Joseph in a similar way the Israelite church did in ancient days. And if so, then your activity within that church has far FAR less bearing on your worthiness before God than your relationship with Him. He alone is mighty to save and redeem - and He will. Give your life to Him and don’t let an institution’s checklist determine how worthy you think you are.
I want to understand what you think of the following....please answer each number.

1. Is breaking the word of wisdom an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
2. Is not paying tithing an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
3. Is pornography an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
4. Is not going to church every sunday an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
5. Is not doing ministering assignments an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?

The only sin I see here is pornography. The rest is highly conditional.

randyps
captain of 100
Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

EvanLM wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:31 pm hope you guys don't mind this funny story but . . I had some friends in Utah . . a couple . .still quite young and good looking people with three daughters now in their teens.

so they tell me that they married just past high school had always been together and at one point in their marriage they just divorced and went astray. They both said that they had sex with everybody they could and just went crazy. Later, they decided to remarry and repent. They were ward missionaries at the time that they told me.

They were totally since about their repentance and totally commited at that time. I didn't ever hear them whine or bemoan their past or hang their head or . . . Nor did they bemoan any one elses sins including their daughters' or family's or anyone in the ward or the church or the world. Totally cool people that just went off the tracks for a while. God called them back.

I am still laughing over their story. Even when they told me then we were laughing cuz they were back and happy. Great people. honest and good, without making you feel their personal drama
Im having a hard time finding the humor in this couples story, thanks for sharing it though.

There was a church song in the early 90s by George Michael it goes.. "sex is natural sex is good, not everybody does it but everybody should!", well by todays standards it seems like a church song. But yeah, once the lust devils got a hold of you they take you on a ride thats for sure.

randyps
captain of 100
Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

EvanLM wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:22 pm
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 4:38 am
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 3:30 am


FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.



This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.




Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

Let me also add that all churchs are true and serve great purposes to help mankind but the LDS church is the only one that has the ordinances and authority to the celestial kingdom. I posted in another thread but God pretty much showed me that I was on the celestial path back when I was a worthy temple recommend holder in 1998, in 2015 I started to go inactive and couldnt renew my TR due to slight changes in my lifestyle which was not TR worthy...I told God I was happy with being inactive and he was happy for me but in 2021 he showed me that I was no longer on the path to celestial glory, rather I was living a life worthy of a telestial state of glory.

I don't believe that all churches are true

you are right and God will continue to call your wife and you back, however, you will respond as you wish . . . now I have an opinion to add to this since I personally started out real good then sinned then repented and am fully active again. However, I am most disappointed in other saints as well as leaders BUT I can't be drug to hell by staying in this church. God called me back. This is Christ's great church that will lead me to salvation regardless of any prophets and members blunders.

so here's the new twist that I am pondering. Let me set it up. first of all, we know that anyone can apostatize even our leaders. we know that there are those who claim to be members and apostates that seem to love getting people to support their position and leave the church. BUT . . the most unusual thing that I find in the church in the last 10 years is that there is a lot more truth being printed and preached as well as the lies deceptions and man made doctrine. They truth and deception seem to run parallel. And the truth is NOT coming from the apostates on this forum or any other. It is coming from the church manuals. Let that sink . . . church manuals

So I am studying about Soloman using the current and revised institute manual. Ponder this stuff for a minute or two.

Quote out of manual: "Solomon's career began in a most promising way as anyone's . . .Israel had finally reached the borders that were to be hers, according to the Lord's promise . . "

poster's note: soloman only asked the Lord for wisdom and he did NOT ask for wealth, remember?

Quote from manual: "Soloman allowed his love for material things AND his great accomplishments as a builder to wean him from his early devotion to the Lord. True, he achieved great fame while the temple was being built, and his dedication of the house of the Lord was one of his most spiritual moments; but later, when the Queen of Sheba and other foreign visitors paid their respects, they said little about soloman's righteousness or wisdom.

Rather, they expressed amazement and awe at his tremendous achievements in building.

Soloman appears to have grown hungry for the plaudits of men. He decided to construct even grander structures. (poster's note:grander than the temple) To do so, he enforced heavy taxation on his people--so heavy that he eventually forced his people into poverty.

Mismanagement of the wealth left Israel tottering.

Is affluence in the church a problem today? Why? do we sometimes forget the instructions given by the Savior in Matthew 6:33?

We, as modern Israel, need to avoid pride, misuse of wealth, and lust for the world's esteem--three temptations that beset Soloman and led to his downfall. Are we any different? Because Soloman lost his blessing from the Lord. he lost it. " END OF QUOTE

point 1: this sure is NOT talking about me cuz I don't have an earthly position like Solomon. It has to be talking about our GAs from prophets on down to local.

point 2: this is in our very own church study manual . . not an outside source . . not a griper from this forum . .. not an apostate. I got it right out of the manual ---Old Testament Study Manual Religion 302 pages 10 - 11 . . revised new edition that has things I never, never , never read in the older manuals . . . what members of this church do YOU think this condemns? Think of the background of most of our GAs including the women and men. They have temptations that I don't, now don't they?

point 3: Even though Soloman was a King and not a prophet or seventy or mission pres or stake pres or regional rep or so on and so on and so on . . . Soloman was still responsible under the covenant and laws to care for the people of Israel and make sure that their TEMPORAL needs were met. He was appointed by God through the prophets and administrated by rights of the law and was supposed to sustain the Israel law in his judgments.

So our leaders are called by God, responsible for the temporal needs of the covenant people (let me mention here that there are NOT responsible for the temporal needs of the world which doesn't mean that they shouldn't help the world but means that the covenant people come before anything else) which is administered under the hand of Jesus Christ through the priesthood and laws of the church. You know what I'm saying.

So is the pot calling the kettle black, in this manual, or is the Lord inspiring even authors of manuals in our church to write in a way that it becomes obvious when men and women have fallen? I just can't believe that the conclusion presented here was uninspired nor the works of an apostate or angry church member. I think it is inspired for yours and my reading and consideration. It is a possibility that this can happen to any and all leaders who are called by God.

When finding truth then first you will need to be willing to accept it with the promise of being faithful to God and Jesus even if the truth shakes your core. They have no desire to lose you with the doctrine and justice that they expect you and everyone in their church to follow. So when you pray about it be willing to stay true or you might not get an answer. Don't satisfy your lusts.

The weakness or sins of anyone in this church cannot prevent you from getting your salvation as long as you are faithful to the gospel and our Gods.

Now, could this be a problem in our church? I think, cuz i have seen this church parade themselves around a lot and have heard the comments from the top(general authorities) down to the lowest member of how wealthy and current this church is. Preachers ask a GA, who reports it in conference..."How did you do this?" The humble answer, as reported in GC is always the Joseph Smith line . . .we didn't, like JS said we teach and the members just follow . . . or whatever than dumb quote is. It is dumb cuz it is always related in GC to the wrong thing.

so here you go and google some more if you would like:

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is considered to be one of the fastest-growing and richest religions in the world. Its members are called Mormons and can be found everywhere, from Scandinavia to Japan. At the turn of the 21st century, Mormon assets were already being estimated to be at over $30 billion. It also has an annual revenue of $6 billion, with nearly 90 percent of the amount coming from member contributions called tithing, in which members are required to give 10 percent of their entire income.

3. Judaism

Those practicing Judaism are said to have accumulated the most wealth among all believers in religions in the United States. This is not stereotype profiling, as Jews are known to be adept in the world of business. It actually came from a sociological research done in the country. Though Judaism is monotheist, it is not homogenous as it does have a lot of different views. The largest streams and movements are Rabbinic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. Aside from its homeland in Israel, its members also have enough economic clout in the United States to form a powerful lobby that can influence and sway the decisions of political leaders.

2. Islam

Islam is a monotheistic religion that is the second largest and one of the fastest growing in the world. While Muslims are found all over the world, most of them live in sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia, South Asia and the Middle East. As a result, Muslims actually have control of the abundant oil found in the Middle East. Some of the richest countries in the world follow strict Islamic laws. Estimates in 2012 put the assets of the Islamic financial industry alone to be at nearly $1.6 trillion.

1. Roman Catholic Church

Catholic priests are expected to make a vow of poverty, so it is ironic that the church is actually the richest religion in the world. The Catholic Church owns some of the greatest art works ever made. It also has vast gold deposits and billions of dollars in assets. It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state. It also has more than a billion members around the world.

POSTER'S note: this article is only for the purpose of expressing the wealth of the church

This story is being co-published with Religion Unplugged.

A whistleblower complaint filed at the Internal Revenue Service in November by a knowledgeable church member alleges that a non-profit supporting organization controlled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints used member tithes to amass more than $100 billion in a set of investment funds and the Church misled members about uses of the money.

The complaint may be the most important look at LDS finances in decades, a window into one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the United States and the world. Details of the IRS filing reveal financial assets largely hidden from the church's membership (often known as "Mormons") and the public view.

’s also double that of the Roman Catholic Church, which has roughly 1.3 billion members and holds assets of $50 billion. That’s a little more than $38 per member. For Latter-day Saints, who have 16.3 million members, our church’s wealth translates to about $6,130 per member, or 161 times the Catholics’ money-to-member ratio.


From thousands of acres of farmlands to thousands of places of worship and from shiny commercial enclaves in urban centers to flowing fields in swelling suburbs, a newly released list shows The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns U.S. properties valued at nearly $16 billion and ranks the Utah-based faith among the nation’s top private landholders.

It may be no surprise that a growing pioneer-era church with millions of members — and devoted to acquiring land, cultivating crops, erecting temples and building Zion — would today hold vast expanses of property.

Still, the sheer scope of church-held domestic real estate yields mind-stretching numbers. And the findings emerge when many Latter-day Saints and church observers are already agog at other recently reported multibillion-dollar figures associated with the faith’s wealth.

This latest cache of data — captured in 2020 and released Tuesday by the Truth & Transparency Foundation (formerly known as MormonLeaks) — reveals a nearly 16,000-parcel collection of 1.7 million acres held by identified LDS Church firms. While the list is not complete, it nonetheless shows church lands in every state, just about every sizable metropolitan area and big blankets of territory in between.

[You can search for U.S. properties owned by the LDS Church here. Find properties on a map here or



AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON . . . . cuz these don't mention investments that will actually be lost when the stockmarket craps out . .and already a lot of money has been lost, I just can't find the stories fast. I think that the church is putting more literature on the net to dispell their wealth than they use to put out cuz 10 years ago they loved the brag articles about our wealth.

Anyway, Temples, temples, Temples. . . all with subdivisions and lots of developed property by contracting companies owned by their kids and friends. City streets improved by the church, farms and wooded acreage, cows and crops. Lots of empty new buildings that house masses of people, historic sites galore. Their attention is turned to other things than lifting their members while I went to some of the most horrible church houses in Ogden Utah that should have been condemned. A sure reality of what our leaders feel about their members. Not worth putting them in a nice building. rather have a temple that is only half or fourth full all the time. Better bragging rights.

PERHAPS, like soloman, they like to rub shoulders with Queens and are proud of their accomplishments in buildings and acreage and investments that have nothing to do with salvation. I do NOT believe that they have put the people of the church in poverty but I do think they have changed their focus and the focus of a whole church membership.

Solomon wrote proverbs . . lots of talk . . loss of action. GAs write lots of books . . lots of talk . . . well . . hmmmm . . . their actions are the reality that you see. I am not willing to state an opinion on that but truth is always shown in reality. You cannot accept the opinion of the powerful if it is against the reality that you see.- And, brother that is only fair to not influence your reality.

No matter how much wisdom Solomon had, it did not save Israel or him when he changed his focus. No matter how much wisdom our leaders have or seem to have when they speak to the world in news articles, GC, journals, etc. it will not save us or help us temporally if they . . . well . . . ugh

may god have mercy
Thank you for sharing, you have opened my eyes just a little more in ways that the critics in this forum couldn't, however I still believe in being loyal to the church as long as I feel that their intentions and mission is still focused on following Christ.

One great thing about the Q15 is that they are all older, they are less likely to care about the glitz, glamour and lusts of this world. Now if our Q15 were between the ages of 30-50 then yea its much easier for satan to tempt them with material things.

randyps
captain of 100
Posts: 573

Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by randyps »

cab wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:44 am
randyps wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:32 am
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 8:25 pm
randyps wrote: July 6th, 2022, 12:26 pm
True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

This is a myopic view. I very much believe. But that belief is not necessarily tied to the “all or nothing” truth claims which the Church to place upon itself.

There is a true Path and Gospel. This can be obtained by anyone who diligently seeks it, regardless of whether or not an institution has deviated.

I invite you to consider the possibility that the church may have fallen into apostasy since the days of Joseph in a similar way the Israelite church did in ancient days. And if so, then your activity within that church has far FAR less bearing on your worthiness before God than your relationship with Him. He alone is mighty to save and redeem - and He will. Give your life to Him and don’t let an institution’s checklist determine how worthy you think you are.
I want to understand what you think of the following....please answer each number.

1. Is breaking the word of wisdom an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
2. Is not paying tithing an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
3. Is pornography an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
4. Is not going to church every sunday an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
5. Is not doing ministering assignments an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?

The only sin I see here is pornography. The rest is highly conditional.
As a father raising young children who are now teenagers, I had to teach them things step by step to prepare them for adulthood, 80% of the rules/lessons/teachings I instilled in them are important for their safety and success and I pretty much demand them to follow it. The other 20% of things I instill are not so important but more of a test to see how obedient they would be in following my word. I know that if they follow the 20% less important items they would most definitely follow the 80% items because those are the major ones that they would eventually see the importance of and want to follow anyway.

I feel the 5 items I listed are the 20% of less important items that God wants us to obey but the Church has taught us to treat all those items as sins so that we see the importance of being obedient to God. I grew up in this mormon structure, constantly being pushed to follow exactly. I know it overwhelms a lot of people, like my wife. But as I said previously, this structure (of Intent) to show exact and perfect obedience is what pleased God enough for him to show me his celestial glory and let me know I am on that path. I want to get back to following those 5 items (which by default) will also get me back into the temple to perform ordinances and continue with Gods work to build his Kingdom....and this pleases him.

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cab
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Re: Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

Post by cab »

randyps wrote: July 7th, 2022, 4:14 am
cab wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:44 am
randyps wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:32 am
cab wrote: July 6th, 2022, 8:25 pm


This is a myopic view. I very much believe. But that belief is not necessarily tied to the “all or nothing” truth claims which the Church to place upon itself.

There is a true Path and Gospel. This can be obtained by anyone who diligently seeks it, regardless of whether or not an institution has deviated.

I invite you to consider the possibility that the church may have fallen into apostasy since the days of Joseph in a similar way the Israelite church did in ancient days. And if so, then your activity within that church has far FAR less bearing on your worthiness before God than your relationship with Him. He alone is mighty to save and redeem - and He will. Give your life to Him and don’t let an institution’s checklist determine how worthy you think you are.
I want to understand what you think of the following....please answer each number.

1. Is breaking the word of wisdom an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
2. Is not paying tithing an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
3. Is pornography an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
4. Is not going to church every sunday an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?
5. Is not doing ministering assignments an item on the checklist or a sin against the Lords commandment?

The only sin I see here is pornography. The rest is highly conditional.
As a father raising young children who are now teenagers, I had to teach them things step by step to prepare them for adulthood, 80% of the rules/lessons/teachings I instilled in them are important for their safety and success and I pretty much demand them to follow it. The other 20% of things I instill are not so important but more of a test to see how obedient they would be in following my word. I know that if they follow the 20% less important items they would most definitely follow the 80% items because those are the major ones that they would eventually see the importance of and want to follow anyway.

I feel the 5 items I listed are the 20% of less important items that God wants us to obey but the Church has taught us to treat all those items as sins so that we see the importance of being obedient to God. I grew up in this mormon structure, constantly being pushed to follow exactly. I know it overwhelms a lot of people, like my wife. But as I said previously, this structure (of Intent) to show exact and perfect obedience is what pleased God enough for him to show me his celestial glory and let me know I am on that path. I want to get back to following those 5 items (which by default) will also get me back into the temple to perform ordinances and continue with Gods work to build his Kingdom....and this pleases him.

If that’s what you truly believe the Lord is asking you to do, then that’s wonderful. Do it and see what the Lord has next for you!

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