Prophet and Apostles getting paid $100k+ is Not Priestcraft

[cwass]

"One great thing about the Q15 is that they are all older, they are less likely to care about the glitz, glamour and lusts of this world. Now if our Q15 were between the ages of 30-50 then yea its much easier for satan to tempt them with material things." Material things? Do you know how much their "stipend" is? It was just raised, I believe, to $140 K a year. Do you make that much? But I read that, by the time you throw in free travel, college tuition for kids, numerous other perks (including free landscaping of their multi-million dollar mansions by Church landscapers), it's up to about $340 K. This is not just the Q15, from what I have read, and probably on this site: the 70, the Temple presidencies, the Mission presidents... That's fine. Just don't say that we have a lay church.

You have captured the sentiment that might be disappointing to many people. I and others I know used to be so proud to say that we had a lay ministry. Do we really though? Being a 70 would be a great career move for potential preachers if those numbers can be trusted. I'm leaning towards believing they receive money but don't know how deep it goes...

[Mamabear]

"One great thing about the Q15 is that they are all older, they are less likely to care about the glitz, glamour and lusts of this world. Now if our Q15 were between the ages of 30-50 then yea its much easier for satan to tempt them with material things." Material things? Do you know how much their "stipend" is? It was just raised, I believe, to $140 K a year. Do you make that much? But I read that, by the time you throw in free travel, college tuition for kids, numerous other perks (including free landscaping of their multi-million dollar mansions by Church landscapers), it's up to about $340 K. This is not just the Q15, from what I have read, and probably on this site: the 70, the Temple presidencies, the Mission presidents... That's fine. Just don't say that we have a lay church.

It’s a lay church for the peasants at the bottom.

[blitzinstripes]

Did the Q15 , temple presidents, mission presidents, and other GA's not make the same temple covenants as the rest of us?

So why are (without exception) independently wealthy men not paying for their own travel, their own housing, their own living expenses? They get to keep every penny they earned of their own wealth (and get a tithing exemption on top of that), and they get every single expense you can think of paid by the church. They sacrifice nothing but their time. Some even keep their business titles. They don't have to spend a dime of their own money for anything, and they get a "stipend check" on top of the already free ride to the tune of well over $100K of "spending money" since everything else is paid.

If that's not a Ponzi scheme, I don't know what is. So much for sacrificing all that you have. That's for us little guys. Filthy rich and won't even pay their own living costs.....

Don't worry. When the Lord tosses the moneychangers out of his Temple, it's gonna be epic. I hear he's quite good with a whip.

f0591646f1f034d28ab1df7b4d0433aa.jpg (85.17 KiB) Viewed 546 times

[Artaxerxes]

If that's not a Ponzi scheme, I don't know what is. So much for sacrificing all that you have. That's for us little guys. Filthy rich and won't even pay their own living costs.....

You don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[randyps]

Why can't the church pay missionaries to go out rather than require they to pay their own way?

I always donate half my tithes to the individual missionaries in my ward, is that not the "church" helping out those missionaries.

Also, if it was advertised that missions were free, I think more kids would go for a free vacation, more converts would join too for that reason.

I remember a poor woman and her adult son that were investigators for a while and then joined, they soon went inactive and I heard they were asking for some monetary assistance and were denied.

[logonbump]

FWIW - All churches are experiencing this.
My wife left the church, I am currently inactive does that mean our foundation was sandy? Our story is not done yet, I foresee myself returning to full activity sooner than later and the spirit guiding my wife back into the gospel to join me, not because we miss the ward but because our foundation was actually quite solid in Jesus that we want to follow him in his true church.



This is on an individual basis, some think this way some dont, I dont. Because you think this way it is true to you.




Many have accomplished and maintain this whole relationship with Jesus while worshipping as LDS. I have. Maybe its one of those teachings that say "for some it is to know.." possibly a gift to know?!?!

Your response assumes that the Church is “true” and that Christ’s gospel necessarily resides within this Church.

These basic LDS assumptions are what I deeply question.

True, that is why we either believe or we dont, the best thing one can do is leave if you have doubts because if it is true the spirit will guide you back.

Let me also add that all churchs are true and serve great purposes to help mankind but the LDS church is the only one that has the ordinances and authority to the celestial kingdom. I posted in another thread but God pretty much showed me that I was on the celestial path back when I was a worthy temple recommend holder in 1998, in 2015 I started to go inactive and couldnt renew my TR due to slight changes in my lifestyle which was not TR worthy...I told God I was happy with being inactive and he was happy for me but in 2021 he showed me that I was no longer on the path to celestial glory, rather I was living a life worthy of a telestial state of glory.

I don't believe that all churches are true

you are right and God will continue to call your wife and you back, however, you will respond as you wish . . . now I have an opinion to add to this since I personally started out real good then sinned then repented and am fully active again. However, I am most disappointed in other saints as well as leaders BUT I can't be drug to hell by staying in this church. God called me back. This is Christ's great church that will lead me to salvation regardless of any prophets and members blunders.

so here's the new twist that I am pondering. Let me set it up. first of all, we know that anyone can apostatize even our leaders. we know that there are those who claim to be members and apostates that seem to love getting people to support their position and leave the church. BUT . . the most unusual thing that I find in the church in the last 10 years is that there is a lot more truth being printed and preached as well as the lies deceptions and man made doctrine. They truth and deception seem to run parallel. And the truth is NOT coming from the apostates on this forum or any other. It is coming from the church manuals. Let that sink . . . church manuals

So I am studying about Soloman using the current and revised institute manual. Ponder this stuff for a minute or two.

Quote out of manual: "Solomon's career began in a most promising way as anyone's . . .Israel had finally reached the borders that were to be hers, according to the Lord's promise . . "

poster's note: soloman only asked the Lord for wisdom and he did NOT ask for wealth, remember?

Quote from manual: "Soloman allowed his love for material things AND his great accomplishments as a builder to wean him from his early devotion to the Lord. True, he achieved great fame while the temple was being built, and his dedication of the house of the Lord was one of his most spiritual moments; but later, when the Queen of Sheba and other foreign visitors paid their respects, they said little about soloman's righteousness or wisdom.

Rather, they expressed amazement and awe at his tremendous achievements in building.

Soloman appears to have grown hungry for the plaudits of men. He decided to construct even grander structures. (poster's note:grander than the temple) To do so, he enforced heavy taxation on his people--so heavy that he eventually forced his people into poverty.

Mismanagement of the wealth left Israel tottering.

Is affluence in the church a problem today? Why? do we sometimes forget the instructions given by the Savior in Matthew 6:33?

We, as modern Israel, need to avoid pride, misuse of wealth, and lust for the world's esteem--three temptations that beset Soloman and led to his downfall. Are we any different? Because Soloman lost his blessing from the Lord. he lost it. " END OF QUOTE

point 1: this sure is NOT talking about me cuz I don't have an earthly position like Solomon. It has to be talking about our GAs from prophets on down to local.

point 2: this is in our very own church study manual . . not an outside source . . not a griper from this forum . .. not an apostate. I got it right out of the manual ---Old Testament Study Manual Religion 302 pages 10 - 11 . . revised new edition that has things I never, never , never read in the older manuals . . . what members of this church do YOU think this condemns? Think of the background of most of our GAs including the women and men. They have temptations that I don't, now don't they?

point 3: Even though Soloman was a King and not a prophet or seventy or mission pres or stake pres or regional rep or so on and so on and so on . . . Soloman was still responsible under the covenant and laws to care for the people of Israel and make sure that their TEMPORAL needs were met. He was appointed by God through the prophets and administrated by rights of the law and was supposed to sustain the Israel law in his judgments.

So our leaders are called by God, responsible for the temporal needs of the covenant people (let me mention here that there are NOT responsible for the temporal needs of the world which doesn't mean that they shouldn't help the world but means that the covenant people come before anything else) which is administered under the hand of Jesus Christ through the priesthood and laws of the church. You know what I'm saying.

So is the pot calling the kettle black, in this manual, or is the Lord inspiring even authors of manuals in our church to write in a way that it becomes obvious when men and women have fallen? I just can't believe that the conclusion presented here was uninspired nor the works of an apostate or angry church member. I think it is inspired for yours and my reading and consideration. It is a possibility that this can happen to any and all leaders who are called by God.

When finding truth then first you will need to be willing to accept it with the promise of being faithful to God and Jesus even if the truth shakes your core. They have no desire to lose you with the doctrine and justice that they expect you and everyone in their church to follow. So when you pray about it be willing to stay true or you might not get an answer. Don't satisfy your lusts.

The weakness or sins of anyone in this church cannot prevent you from getting your salvation as long as you are faithful to the gospel and our Gods.

Now, could this be a problem in our church? I think, cuz i have seen this church parade themselves around a lot and have heard the comments from the top(general authorities) down to the lowest member of how wealthy and current this church is. Preachers ask a GA, who reports it in conference..."How did you do this?" The humble answer, as reported in GC is always the Joseph Smith line . . .we didn't, like JS said we teach and the members just follow . . . or whatever than dumb quote is. It is dumb cuz it is always related in GC to the wrong thing.

so here you go and google some more if you would like:

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is considered to be one of the fastest-growing and richest religions in the world. Its members are called Mormons and can be found everywhere, from Scandinavia to Japan. At the turn of the 21st century, Mormon assets were already being estimated to be at over $30 billion. It also has an annual revenue of $6 billion, with nearly 90 percent of the amount coming from member contributions called tithing, in which members are required to give 10 percent of their entire income.

3. Judaism

Those practicing Judaism are said to have accumulated the most wealth among all believers in religions in the United States. This is not stereotype profiling, as Jews are known to be adept in the world of business. It actually came from a sociological research done in the country. Though Judaism is monotheist, it is not homogenous as it does have a lot of different views. The largest streams and movements are Rabbinic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. Aside from its homeland in Israel, its members also have enough economic clout in the United States to form a powerful lobby that can influence and sway the decisions of political leaders.

2. Islam

Islam is a monotheistic religion that is the second largest and one of the fastest growing in the world. While Muslims are found all over the world, most of them live in sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia, South Asia and the Middle East. As a result, Muslims actually have control of the abundant oil found in the Middle East. Some of the richest countries in the world follow strict Islamic laws. Estimates in 2012 put the assets of the Islamic financial industry alone to be at nearly $1.6 trillion.

1. Roman Catholic Church

Catholic priests are expected to make a vow of poverty, so it is ironic that the church is actually the richest religion in the world. The Catholic Church owns some of the greatest art works ever made. It also has vast gold deposits and billions of dollars in assets. It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state. It also has more than a billion members around the world.

POSTER'S note: this article is only for the purpose of expressing the wealth of the church

This story is being co-published with Religion Unplugged.

A whistleblower complaint filed at the Internal Revenue Service in November by a knowledgeable church member alleges that a non-profit supporting organization controlled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints used member tithes to amass more than $100 billion in a set of investment funds and the Church misled members about uses of the money.

The complaint may be the most important look at LDS finances in decades, a window into one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the United States and the world. Details of the IRS filing reveal financial assets largely hidden from the church's membership (often known as "Mormons") and the public view.

’s also double that of the Roman Catholic Church, which has roughly 1.3 billion members and holds assets of $50 billion. That’s a little more than $38 per member. For Latter-day Saints, who have 16.3 million members, our church’s wealth translates to about $6,130 per member, or 161 times the Catholics’ money-to-member ratio.


From thousands of acres of farmlands to thousands of places of worship and from shiny commercial enclaves in urban centers to flowing fields in swelling suburbs, a newly released list shows The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns U.S. properties valued at nearly $16 billion and ranks the Utah-based faith among the nation’s top private landholders.

It may be no surprise that a growing pioneer-era church with millions of members — and devoted to acquiring land, cultivating crops, erecting temples and building Zion — would today hold vast expanses of property.

Still, the sheer scope of church-held domestic real estate yields mind-stretching numbers. And the findings emerge when many Latter-day Saints and church observers are already agog at other recently reported multibillion-dollar figures associated with the faith’s wealth.

This latest cache of data — captured in 2020 and released Tuesday by the Truth & Transparency Foundation (formerly known as MormonLeaks) — reveals a nearly 16,000-parcel collection of 1.7 million acres held by identified LDS Church firms. While the list is not complete, it nonetheless shows church lands in every state, just about every sizable metropolitan area and big blankets of territory in between.

[You can search for U.S. properties owned by the LDS Church here. Find properties on a map here or



AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON . . . . cuz these don't mention investments that will actually be lost when the stockmarket craps out . .and already a lot of money has been lost, I just can't find the stories fast. I think that the church is putting more literature on the net to dispell their wealth than they use to put out cuz 10 years ago they loved the brag articles about our wealth.

Anyway, Temples, temples, Temples. . . all with subdivisions and lots of developed property by contracting companies owned by their kids and friends. City streets improved by the church, farms and wooded acreage, cows and crops. Lots of empty new buildings that house masses of people, historic sites galore. Their attention is turned to other things than lifting their members while I went to some of the most horrible church houses in Ogden Utah that should have been condemned. A sure reality of what our leaders feel about their members. Not worth putting them in a nice building. rather have a temple that is only half or fourth full all the time. Better bragging rights.

PERHAPS, like soloman, they like to rub shoulders with Queens and are proud of their accomplishments in buildings and acreage and investments that have nothing to do with salvation. I do NOT believe that they have put the people of the church in poverty but I do think they have changed their focus and the focus of a whole church membership.

Solomon wrote proverbs . . lots of talk . . loss of action. GAs write lots of books . . lots of talk . . . well . . hmmmm . . . their actions are the reality that you see. I am not willing to state an opinion on that but truth is always shown in reality. You cannot accept the opinion of the powerful if it is against the reality that you see.- And, brother that is only fair to not influence your reality.

No matter how much wisdom Solomon had, it did not save Israel or him when he changed his focus. No matter how much wisdom our leaders have or seem to have when they speak to the world in news articles, GC, journals, etc. it will not save us or help us temporally if they . . . well . . . ugh

may god have mercy

Doesn't the church actually own the single most valuable commercial real estate portfolio in the United States?

[JuneBug12000]

you might be right, however, I think the birthday party using the conference center and having donny osmond sing for RMN was pretty glitzy. And I think that david and solomon both were righteous in their early years maybe 30-50, then they both fell in their later years, maybe 60+.

Where do we draw the line? What are the rules to celebrating achievements and milestones in our lives? Its all relative.

I house sit for a rich couple (non-religious) in their 70s that take their adult kids and their families on vacations at least 4 times a year around the world. They are a very humble family and I have never sensed any type of gloating or entitlement from them. If you have the money, why not spend it and enjoy it?

I know poor people who are jealous of other poor people that have more then them, is that not sinning by coveting your neighbors things?

Which brings me back to my original topic, I do not believe that our "paid" leaders and our "rich" church are money hungry/greedy. They are smart with money. Middle and lower income earning LDS members are probably the ones complaining, why? because they think anyone or anything that is better/richer then them needs to be complained about.

One thing I notice about rich AND succesful people, they never complain about another rich person, why, because they understand that it took hard work to get to that point. Its only the less fortunate that think someone owes them something for their lack of hard work or misfortunes in life.

Please let me hear from anyone in this forum who is rich, Im talking Multi-millionaire status, that has a complaint about the churchs billion dollar worth.

Some will never be rich because they give like the widow and her mite.

[JuneBug12000]

Here the problem I have with the church's wealth. Let's take Rick. Rick makes 60k a year. Gives 6k to RustyCorp. Ricks sons follows the prophet, as he has been told to do since birth, and goes on a mission. Rick now has to get a second job to support Rob, his son. Ricks car is a piece of crap. Rick can't afford another car because he's paying for Rob to go out and bring more clients into Rusty's pyramid scheme. Rick can't repair his roof right because he's funding Rob's two-year soliciting fest. Rick can't afford to take a vacation. Ricks wife Rhonda now has to work also because Rick has worn his back out and now needs surgery. Meanwhile Rusty, Dave, Dieter, Doug, Bob their wives and family members along with personal assistants, security teams, photographers and a whole slew I'm of sycophants get to travel to Rome so that they can all have their pictures taken in pretty white suits next to another "Great and Spacious building." All of this was paid for by little old Rick. Little old Rick who will work until he dies in order for Rusty and his buddies to travel the world and live a rock stars life.

None of those things are related. Tithing is a commandment. People have to pay their 10% to the Lord regardless of what it goes to.

In your hypo, Rick would be working and doing whatever regardless of what the money is spent on.

Does Rick have to give his tithing to Rustycorp? Does God reject tithes given by other sects to their respective church's? Why can't the church pay missionaries to go out rather than require they to pay their own way? How many temple sit nearly vacant yet RustyCorp. announces a new one every week.

Again, if he gave 10% to the food bank or to church, or whether or not the church spent it or kept it or whatever, Rick's balance sheet would be the same.

Not necessary.

When I gave tithing as God told me instead of according to tradition, the Lord "opened the windows of heaven" and we have had miracle after miracle. We are going on 4 months since my husband was laid off and we don't use government of church welfare , and we are still paying all our bills. We didn't have much savings at the time because of other expenses that came up just previous. We are not adding to debt, the mortgage being the only debt we have. We have had everything from refunds, to an old pension pop up as available, to neighbors dropping off meat to fill out freezer because they shot an elk and don't have room in their freezer for the old stuff.

Many of the things we might need to buy, we were warned by the Spirit to buy long before the surprise lay off came.

So may miracles temporal and spiritual.

Obedience to God over man is a true principle.

[Christianlee]

It’s only a problem because they consider me unworthy if I don’t pay them. They probably deserve what they are getting. They have their reward.

[thaabit]

Why can't the church pay missionaries to go out rather than require they to pay their own way?

I always donate half my tithes to the individual missionaries in my ward, is that not the "church" helping out those missionaries.

Also, if it was advertised that missions were free, I think more kids would go for a free vacation, more converts would join too for that reason.

I remember a poor woman and her adult son that were investigators for a while and then joined, they soon went inactive and I heard they were asking for some monetary assistance and were denied.

My mission was definitely not a vacation. What on earth were you doing on yours?

[The Red Pill]

"One great thing about the Q15 is that they are all older, they are less likely to care about the glitz, glamour and lusts of this world. Now if our Q15 were between the ages of 30-50 then yea its much easier for satan to tempt them with material things." Material things? Do you know how much their "stipend" is? It was just raised, I believe, to $140 K a year. Do you make that much? But I read that, by the time you throw in free travel, college tuition for kids, numerous other perks (including free landscaping of their multi-million dollar mansions by Church landscapers), it's up to about $340 K. This is not just the Q15, from what I have read, and probably on this site: the 70, the Temple presidencies, the Mission presidents... That's fine. Just don't say that we have a lay church.

It’s a lay church for the peasants at the bottom.

Oh yeah...what really put my shorts in a bunch was when I found out about the Ensign Peak Advisors 150 billion tithing slush fund...while they were simultaneously laying off paid janitors and asking members to do it instead.

The 120k base salary and many additional perks didn't help with restoring the warm fuzzies either.

Drunkards of Ephraim indeed...

[letsjet]

Thank You for your post! I get weary of the people on this forum who continue to speak ill of the Lord’s Anointed. They remind me of the people who called Joseph Smith a fallen prophet.

Because of our historical perspective we can see how they misjudged the prophet. The members at the time of Joseph Smith were not aware of all of the circumstances that were involved and they seriously misjudged a prophet of God.

The Lord revealed to me many years ago that Russel M. Nelson would one day be our prophet. The God of Heaven knows what He is doing!

I thank you again for your post!

[CMajor]

Thank You for your post! I get weary of the people on this forum who continue to speak ill of the Lord’s Anointed. They remind me of the people who called Joseph Smith a fallen prophet.

Because of our historical perspective we can see how they misjudged the prophet. The members at the time of Joseph Smith were not aware of all of the circumstances that were involved and they seriously misjudged a prophet of God.

The Lord revealed to me many years ago that Russel M. Nelson would one day be our prophet. The God of Heaven knows what He is doing!

I thank you again for your post!

Yes remember God is no respecter of persons, all who have received their endowment are "The Lord's Annointed"

Russell M Nelson is in the right place at the right time, in order to fulfill the prophecy in DC 85:8.

[Mamabear]

"One great thing about the Q15 is that they are all older, they are less likely to care about the glitz, glamour and lusts of this world. Now if our Q15 were between the ages of 30-50 then yea its much easier for satan to tempt them with material things." Material things? Do you know how much their "stipend" is? It was just raised, I believe, to $140 K a year. Do you make that much? But I read that, by the time you throw in free travel, college tuition for kids, numerous other perks (including free landscaping of their multi-million dollar mansions by Church landscapers), it's up to about $340 K. This is not just the Q15, from what I have read, and probably on this site: the 70, the Temple presidencies, the Mission presidents... That's fine. Just don't say that we have a lay church.

It’s a lay church for the peasants at the bottom.

Oh yeah...what really put my shorts in a bunch was when I found out about the Ensign Peak Advisors 150 billion tithing slush fund...while they were simultaneously laying off paid janitors and asking members to do it instead.

The 120k base salary and many additional perks didn't help with restoring the warm fuzzies either.

Drunkards of Ephraim indeed...

I had no idea about their salary until a few years ago. If would’ve known that I might not have joined the church. The missionaries still teach we have an unpaid clergy which is misleading.

[Durzan]

A $120k base salary is upper middle class.

[Alexander]

I wonder what a true prophet would say.

Alma 30:
32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?

The perfectly describes our situation. They don't receive money for their work in the church. They're paid for their other work, just like Alma.

Kek

[JuneBug12000]

A $120k base salary is upper middle class.

I guess if you are comparing it to millionaires.

[Durzan]

A $120k base salary is upper middle class.

I guess if you are comparing it to millionaires.

Not really. Check the tax brackets, 120K is the upper end of middle class tax bracket for married couples.

[JuneBug12000]

A $120k base salary is upper middle class.

I guess if you are comparing it to millionaires.

Not really. Check the tax brackets, 120K is the upper end of middle class tax bracket for married couples.

I feel middle class. We've got one income, Actually, unemployed because of a layoff currently but fine. Last job was just over half that actually. 8 kids. No welfare. Not living paycheck to paycheck. Where do people spend their money?

[randyps]

Why can't the church pay missionaries to go out rather than require they to pay their own way?

I always donate half my tithes to the individual missionaries in my ward, is that not the "church" helping out those missionaries.

Also, if it was advertised that missions were free, I think more kids would go for a free vacation, more converts would join too for that reason.

I remember a poor woman and her adult son that were investigators for a while and then joined, they soon went inactive and I heard they were asking for some monetary assistance and were denied.

My mission was definitely not a vacation. What on earth were you doing on yours?

I served foreign, in Japan. The food, the people, the scenery was magnificent. I would go back and do it a hundred times especially knowing what marriage and 3 kids would bring.