How is the $10k/month GA stipend not Priestcraft?

[LDS Physician]

Just asking ...

*listening for the apologists' cacophony of rationalization*

[iWriteStuff]

Just asking ...

*listening for the apologists' cacophony of rationalization*

It is.

Now ask about proceeds from book sales, which are basically repackaged conference talks.

[BigT]

I imagine some, perhaps even many, took a pay cut to accept full-time service. RMN for sure. When in practice and things were booming prior to the 2008 bust, I made almost twice that (chump change to many, I know). I wouldn’t mind making that kind of $ now, but I digress.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the church’s wealth and what many here say about the leaders’ efforts to preserve that income stream, and “nest egg.” But, how does that benefit them personally? Not for $10K a month.

[cab]

Just asking ...

*listening for the apologists' cacophony of rationalization*

It is.

Now ask about proceeds from book sales, which are basically repackaged conference talks.

Now ask about emeritus pensions which are basically a lifetime bribe to tow the line.

[John Tavner]

I don't believe receiving money is priestcraft. I believe if we preach for gain it is and for the glory of the world then it is priestcraft. If one preaches and is merely paid, but money is not their goal, but just to preach the word of God, then it is not priestcraft Otherwise and I'm find if you want to do it, but otherwise Joseph and all the leaders of the church (modern church) are also guilty of priestcraft. Not all preachers who are paid are guilty of priestcraft, but many are - it is their intent. I would say the way they expect people to honor them and do things for them probably leans towards priestcraft on top of the money they receive, but what they use it for, I don't know.

[LDS Physician]

I don't believe receiving money is priestcraft. I believe if we preach for gain it is and for the glory of the world then it is priestcraft. If one preaches and is merely paid, but money is not their goal, but just to preach the word of God, then it is not priestcraft Otherwise and I'm find if you want to do it, but otherwise Joseph and all the leaders of the church (modern church) are also guilty of priestcraft. Not all preachers who are paid are guilty of priestcraft, but many are - it is their intent. I would say the way they expect people to honor them and do things for them probably leans towards priestcraft on top of the money they receive, but what they use it for, I don't know.

I think King Benjamin would disagree...

[John Tavner]

I don't believe receiving money is priestcraft. I believe if we preach for gain it is and for the glory of the world then it is priestcraft. If one preaches and is merely paid, but money is not their goal, but just to preach the word of God, then it is not priestcraft Otherwise and I'm find if you want to do it, but otherwise Joseph and all the leaders of the church (modern church) are also guilty of priestcraft. Not all preachers who are paid are guilty of priestcraft, but many are - it is their intent. I would say the way they expect people to honor them and do things for them probably leans towards priestcraft on top of the money they receive, but what they use it for, I don't know.

I think King Benjamin would disagree...

He wouldn't. Read what it says, not what you've been taught.

2 Nephi 26: 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

There is a difference between laboring for zion and receiving money and laboring for money, so you preach.

Even Alma talks about priests receiving sustenance if they aren't able to do all themselves- it depends on the calling and the Lord. The missionaries take no purse or script, but receive from those around them. They aren't preaching for food, but they receive sustenance and money etc from those who offer. Going back even further, the Levites were to receive 10% (I think that is the number) of 10% of all tithes for themselves - that was a direction from God for all their priestly duties and because they didn't have land etc..

[Mamabear]

“Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”
1 Peter 5:2-3

“Not for filthy lucre.”
Are they “Lords over God’s heritage” or “ensamples to the flock?”

[John Tavner]

Look to be clear, I'm not defending them, but I am trying to correct our thinking so we check ourselves before we wreck ourselves through wrong thinking. We need truth to judge righteously.

[The Red Pill]

Sorry...but $120,000.00 a year AIN'T sustenance.

And...just because they may have made more before...means they most likely have MUCH LARGER savings/investment accounts...that they could tap into if necessary.

Coupled with 150 Billion with Ensign Peak...it sure looks more and more like Jim and Tammy Baker...than what Jesus taught.

[LDS Physician]

And the rationalizations flow...

And I am judging righteously. I'm watching multi-millionaires receive $10k/month, book royalties, and who knows what else, writing checks to political parties, etc. etc. ... and we all know the ultimate source of these funds: tithing...from people who often sacrifice at great costs to tithe.

No. I can't believe that these ultra-rich men compare to "priests receiving sustenance if they aren't able to do all themselves" as you say, John. Not. Even. Close.

Meanwhile, these same men tell us to go uphold our temple covenants including the one where we're to SACRIFICE all that we have to the Church ... days after they have received yet another check: the opposite of sacrifice.

[blitzinstripes]

Christ, his apostles, and all great prophets and missionaries in human history have traveled without purse or script and preached the gospel with zero monetary compensation. They literally
lived and traveled in a state of poverty and relied on their faith in God and benevolent people to provide their basic needs. This compensation/ stipend, which equates to upper class income status, in ADDITION to the fact that almost without exception these GA's are already independently wealthy, is abominable, imo.

Just as Satan wanted the glory as Savior WITHOUT having to pay that price and endure such enormous suffering, these charlatans want to be fed and clothed and maintain their lofty social statuses and their great and spacious palaces.

The greatest act of faith and truest example I have ever seen in that regard was with an evangelical friend of mine, a former co-worker. He and his wife and six children felt called of God to go and serve a mission in a very poor Asian country. They sacrificed for nearly two years to prepare. They sold their home, a cabin, both of their vehicles, they were left with not much more than the clothes on their backs. All of this they willingly sacrificed to fulfill that call. Both parents left good jobs behind. They spent almost five years over there serving the people and spreading the good news of Christ.

We talk a lot about faith, sacrifice, and willing to consecrate our lives and all of our possessions to the Lord. And that's it. We TALK about it. God bless these wonderful Christian people. They taught me more about what real faith is than over 40 years of wealthy and well paid "general authorities".

[HVDC]

Just asking ...

*listening for the apologists' cacophony of rationalization*

"It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it" -Carlin

"...Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others.” -Orwell

The LDS Church, where Membership has no privileges, just obligations.

Catholicism, where Membership has no privileges, just obligations.

Communism, where Membership has no privileges, just obligations.

Hummmm...

MLM anyone?

Tell a friend.

Sir H

[The Red Pill]

Just a side note...

All you Trump hating apologist trolls who come out of the woodwork on this forum.

Just remember...Trump DID NOT accept his presidential salary...he donated it.

[John Tavner]

Sorry...but $120,000.00 a year AIN'T sustenance.

And...just because they may have made more before...means they most likely have MUCH LARGER savings/investment accounts...that they could tap into if necessary.

Coupled with 150 Billion with Ensign Peak...it sure looks more and more like Jim and Tammy Baker...than what Jesus taught.

I never said it was. I was correcting the wrong impression that receiving money automatically = priestcraft. It doesn't. Period.

[John Tavner]

And the rationalizations flow...

And I am judging righteously. I'm watching multi-millionaires receive $10k/month, book royalties, and who knows what else, writing checks to political parties, etc. etc. ... and we all know the ultimate source of these funds: tithing...from people who often sacrifice at great costs to tithe.

No. I can't believe that these ultra-rich men compare to "priests receiving sustenance if they aren't able to do all themselves" as you say, John. Not. Even. Close.

Meanwhile, these same men tell us to go uphold our temple covenants including the one where we're to SACRIFICE all that we have to the Church ... days after they have received yet another check: the opposite of sacrifice.

You are getting defensive. again Receiving money does not automatically equate to priestcraft. I never said that they weren't practicing priestcraft, I was responding to the misconception that any money receved is priestcraft. Don't let your bitterness influence your life. They have no power or control over you. Let Christ rule your life not some multi-million dollar people. I get it, I've been there and I was bitter too, but if you don't let it go it will consume you. God is good, He is loving and He wants you to live in peace. Jesus walked around and saw all the wickedness of the world, He didn't let terrible people influence Him in life. He didn't let it make Him bitter. We have to shape up and bear His name instead of always letting hte natural man take over. It is a call to be more because of who God called us to be. We have to start living like Christians instead of letting the world determine how we feel and act.

[LDS Physician]

Sorry...but $120,000.00 a year AIN'T sustenance.

And...just because they may have made more before...means they most likely have MUCH LARGER savings/investment accounts...that they could tap into if necessary.

Coupled with 150 Billion with Ensign Peak...it sure looks more and more like Jim and Tammy Baker...than what Jesus taught.

I never said it was. I was correcting the wrong impression that receiving money automatically = priestcraft. It doesn't. Period.

In this case, it is priestcraft. I'm convinced. These millionaires don't need an additional upper-class income in their accounts.

How you can defend them receiving a large collection of widow's mites is beyond my comprehension.

[John Tavner]

Sorry...but $120,000.00 a year AIN'T sustenance.

And...just because they may have made more before...means they most likely have MUCH LARGER savings/investment accounts...that they could tap into if necessary.

Coupled with 150 Billion with Ensign Peak...it sure looks more and more like Jim and Tammy Baker...than what Jesus taught.

I never said it was. I was correcting the wrong impression that receiving money automatically = priestcraft. It doesn't. Period.

In this case, it is priestcraft. I'm convinced. These millionaires don't need an additional upper-class income in their accounts.

How you can defend them receiving a large collection of widow's mites is beyond my comprehension.

I'm not defending them. You are just assuming I am. That said, intent is important. People are people and people do dumb things. I'm also not saying they are comitting priestcraft, I'm sure some of them are, but I don't know all and it doesn't make my life better or worse accusing them or knowing if they are or arent - it can not save me, it does not save others. That knowledge that they may or may not be wicked creatures has no effect on my standing before God - nor will it ever- my standing before God is because of Him and Christ and no other.

I had to come to my own conclusion on this becaue I found out Joseph Smith received money. Either He was practicing priestcraft or he wasnt. I came to this conclusion because it idn't make sense that in the beginning of the church people were paid to be lay leaders. It was common. It does not match the modern narrative. So we can say from the beginning the chuch practiced priestcraft, which is fine or we can figure out what it actually means. Joseph received quite a bit of money too. I'm not defedning him either, but I'm also not accusing him. I also don't believe every single preacher out there is guilty of priestcraft. There is something more about it and that is the intent- where is their heart, is it to build up the kingdom of GOd, or build up their own kingdom and that matters.

[Mamabear]

Christ, his apostles, and all great prophets and missionaries in human history have traveled without purse or script and preached the gospel with zero monetary compensation. They literally
lived and traveled in a state of poverty and relied on their faith in God and benevolent people to provide their basic needs. This compensation/ stipend, which equates to upper class income status, in ADDITION to the fact that almost without exception these GA's are already independently wealthy, is abominable, imo.

Just as Satan wanted the glory as Savior WITHOUT having to pay that price and endure such enormous suffering, these charlatans want to be fed and clothed and maintain their lofty social statuses and their great and spacious palaces.

The greatest act of faith and truest example I have ever seen in that regard was with an evangelical friend of mine, a former co-worker. He and his wife and six children felt called of God to go and serve a mission in a very poor Asian country. They sacrificed for nearly two years to prepare. They sold their home, a cabin, both of their vehicles, they were left with not much more than the clothes on their backs. All of this they willingly sacrificed to fulfill that call. Both parents left good jobs behind. They spent almost five years over there serving the people and spreading the good news of Christ.

We talk a lot about faith, sacrifice, and willing to consecrate our lives and all of our possessions to the Lord. And that's it. We TALK about it. God bless these wonderful Christian people. They taught me more about what real faith is than over 40 years of wealthy and well paid "general authorities".

Love this. True signs of real apostles right there. Poor, no where to dwell, hungry, no money, etc.

[Luke]

Whether it’s Priestcraft or not is a debate in and of itself. I’m not quite decided.

Whether it’s necessary is settled for me. It’s absolutely unnecessary. They do not need that.

As for the Twelve (and Seventies) specifically, they should be travelling to all nations without purse or scrip, living by faith. That’s their calling.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Sorry...but $120,000.00 a year AIN'T sustenance.

And...just because they may have made more before...means they most likely have MUCH LARGER savings/investment accounts...that they could tap into if necessary.

Coupled with 150 Billion with Ensign Peak...it sure looks more and more like Jim and Tammy Baker...than what Jesus taught.

These men are wealthy enough to go without $120,000. The average income in the US is around $68,000*… so just from the 15 they could pay the average US income for 26* people every year. Instead it goes to a billionaire *coughstevenson*…

[LDS Physician]

And the rationalizations flow...

And I am judging righteously. I'm watching multi-millionaires receive $10k/month, book royalties, and who knows what else, writing checks to political parties, etc. etc. ... and we all know the ultimate source of these funds: tithing...from people who often sacrifice at great costs to tithe.

No. I can't believe that these ultra-rich men compare to "priests receiving sustenance if they aren't able to do all themselves" as you say, John. Not. Even. Close.

Meanwhile, these same men tell us to go uphold our temple covenants including the one where we're to SACRIFICE all that we have to the Church ... days after they have received yet another check: the opposite of sacrifice.

You are getting defensive. again Receiving money does not automatically equate to priestcraft. I never said that they weren't practicing priestcraft, I was responding to the misconception that any money receved is priestcraft. Don't let your bitterness influence your life. They have no power or control over you. Let Christ rule your life not some multi-million dollar people. I get it, I've been there and I was bitter too, but if you don't let it go it will consume you. God is good, He is loving and He wants you to live in peace. Jesus walked around and saw all the wickedness of the world, He didn't let terrible people influence Him in life. He didn't let it make Him bitter. We have to shape up and bear His name instead of always letting hte natural man take over. It is a call to be more because of who God called us to be. We have to start living like Christians instead of letting the world determine how we feel and act.

I'm not letting bitterness influence my life. You don't know me. I'm also not going to be an ostrich and put my head in the sand when those who are called to lead me are in err. Just because I'm pointing out a blatant inconsistency here doesn't mean I'm bitter and that it's influencing my life. I'm actually trying to be like the Savior and point out the hypocrisy of the "ruling class" (religious and secular) in our day without using anger, violence, or fear.

Again. I'm not bitter but almost became so when you accused me of it. LOL.

[John Tavner]

And the rationalizations flow...

And I am judging righteously. I'm watching multi-millionaires receive $10k/month, book royalties, and who knows what else, writing checks to political parties, etc. etc. ... and we all know the ultimate source of these funds: tithing...from people who often sacrifice at great costs to tithe.

No. I can't believe that these ultra-rich men compare to "priests receiving sustenance if they aren't able to do all themselves" as you say, John. Not. Even. Close.

Meanwhile, these same men tell us to go uphold our temple covenants including the one where we're to SACRIFICE all that we have to the Church ... days after they have received yet another check: the opposite of sacrifice.

You are getting defensive. again Receiving money does not automatically equate to priestcraft. I never said that they weren't practicing priestcraft, I was responding to the misconception that any money receved is priestcraft. Don't let your bitterness influence your life. They have no power or control over you. Let Christ rule your life not some multi-million dollar people. I get it, I've been there and I was bitter too, but if you don't let it go it will consume you. God is good, He is loving and He wants you to live in peace. Jesus walked around and saw all the wickedness of the world, He didn't let terrible people influence Him in life. He didn't let it make Him bitter. We have to shape up and bear His name instead of always letting hte natural man take over. It is a call to be more because of who God called us to be. We have to start living like Christians instead of letting the world determine how we feel and act.

I'm not letting bitterness influence my life. You don't know me. I'm also not going to be an ostrich and put my head in the sand when those who are called to lead me are in err. Just because I'm pointing out a blatant inconsistency here doesn't mean I'm bitter and that it's influencing my life. I'm actually trying to be like the Savior and point out the hypocrisy of the "ruling class" (religious and secular) in our day without using anger, violence, or fear.

Again. I'm not bitter but almost became so when you accused me of it. LOL.

I"m glad you aren't bitter. I can only say in my own experience tht the more I point out faults though, the more likely I am to become so - it is an easy tendency. I am also not telling you to put your head in the sand like an ostrich - it isn't an either or type of situation. It is fine to call out hypocrisy, but we have to be careful our intention is pure when we do it - as the scripture says the anger of man does not bring forth the righteousness of God, no matter how true what we are saying is. Included would be our desire for validation - not saying that you are doing so or that you are angry.

You've been on this board a while and this discussion has been brought up multiple times on the GAs and their money. So I assumed (incorrectly) that you were frustrated rather than having the pure motive of sharing the inconsistency. It seemed to further solidify when I made my comment about how not all who receive money are guilty of priestcraft and your response. When I say bitterness, also to be clear, I'm not saying it like it affects every interaction now, and others would consider you a bitter person but it sits in your heart and bothers you and you think more about that fault than about God for a longer than is good period of time (consumes your life is how I put it). I suppose I need to watch my hyperbole, which is something I probably need to work on. Though the point is moot because as you say, you don't have that in you at all, So I apologize for my false assumption.

[Lizzy60]

Taking the salary issue away, I believe it’s undeniable that they set themselves up as a light to the world and seek the praise of men. Just check out their social media for a few minutes.

[John Tavner]

Taking the salary issue away, I believe it’s undeniable that they set themselves up as a light to the world and seek the praise of men. Just check out their social media for a few minutes.

I agree with that. I've seen that from more than a few of them. I haven't interacted with all of them nor do I follow (on social media) any them, but it definitely is present and has been present in many if not most of hte interactions I've had with them, in real life and from what I've senn in social media applications. I think there is a tendency to want to follow people in general by the human race, but at the very least the leaders could try to push for clear direction on pointing to Christ and telling people to stop viewing themselves in such a way. Somthing like (if they were true servants) "We are just servants, you can receive from God yourselves, we want you to receive Christ like we have, you can only do that by seeking Him, we might offer some example, but Chrsit is the only true example, honor your fellow man the same way you desire to honor us, we are only the the way we are for the grace of God, and you can receive that grace too, you can receive revelation too, we don't keep you from God, nor do we stand between you and God etc..."