Is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost a singular event? (Poll)

[Mamabear]

I view it as an event that is often the culmination of a process. Like when a baby is born after the tedious and difficult process of pregnancy.

The church seems to believe we stay pregnant forever and the miraculous new birth never really happens.

Makes sense... like being born again... sometimes the births and gestation periods happen faster for some than others, but we all come out new babies.

And when a woman is pregnant, we're never really focusing on the pregnancy itself - but on what we KNOW and ANTICIPATE the trial of pregnancy is meant to produce... Oh how I wish we (as Mormons) didn't lose sight of the intended purpose of everything that we do - to produce new spiritually begotten babes in Christ...

We are constantly taught that coming to Christ is a PROCESS.... And so it seems that we in the church stay forever pregnant with potential, but so seldom are people actually spiritually DELIVERED...

It reminds me of this verse where Isaiah mocks line upon line:

“But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” Isaiah 28:13

This is what Abraham Gileadi wrote about this verse:
“Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.”

If conversion is a lifetime process then why did Jesus say this:
“And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:31-32

I think serving the Lord is something we do for a lifetime, not being converted.

[cab]

I view it as an event that is often the culmination of a process. Like when a baby is born after the tedious and difficult process of pregnancy.

The church seems to believe we stay pregnant forever and the miraculous new birth never really happens.

Makes sense... like being born again... sometimes the births and gestation periods happen faster for some than others, but we all come out new babies.

And when a woman is pregnant, we're never really focusing on the pregnancy itself - but on what we KNOW and ANTICIPATE the trial of pregnancy is meant to produce... Oh how I wish we (as Mormons) didn't lose sight of the intended purpose of everything that we do - to produce new spiritually begotten babes in Christ...

We are constantly taught that coming to Christ is a PROCESS.... And so it seems that we in the church stay forever pregnant with potential, but so seldom are people actually spiritually DELIVERED...

It reminds me of this verse where Isaiah mocks line upon line:

“But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” Isaiah 28:13

This is what Abraham Gileadi wrote about this verse:
“Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.”

If conversion is a lifetime process then why did Jesus say this:
“And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:31-32

I think serving the Lord is something we do for a lifetime, not being converted.

Yes exactly!
The process might take a long time before its culmination (as with King Benjamin’s people or the Nephites in 3rd-4th Nephi) or it may be immediate (such as with Lamoni or Alma), but the result is the same - conversion from the natural man to a spiritual man….

And, as the scriptures say - it is a MIGHTY change…. Not like the imperceptible appearance of dew on morning grass or a cucumber getting pickled….

This is taught incorrectly so very often from our highest pulpits…

[cab]

Quick excerpt from my small little book on the importance of being born again:

———————————

It is my observation that most of us view the types of conversion stories in the scriptures as less than commonplace, out of reach, or even unrealistic. 

Why might this be the case?

It seems that our experiences (or lack thereof) tend to mold our expectations. If we have not personally experienced mighty outpourings of the Spirit in the past, we tend to not expect them in the future. If we are not aware of anyone who has experienced heavenly visitations, pillars of fire, revelations, or visions then we do not tend to expect them ourselves. 

Likewise, our expectations may be tempered by the way we are taught. We seldom hear about mighty miracles from the pulpit or in general conference. Rather, we are taught that the types of spiritual manifestations we read about in the scriptures are “remarkable but not typical”1 and that “strong, impressive spiritual experiences do not come to us very frequently”2. We are counselled that “most of the miracles we experience are not to be shared”3 or that “you don’t hear voices, you’re not going to have a vision, that’s very unusual”4. We are even cautioned to not be “misled by expecting revelations too frequently [because] the people [] most confused in this Church are those who seek personal revelations on everything”2.

We are urged to be content with “the small and simple things”5. We are taught that “being born again is a gradual thing”2. This process is likened to the imperceptible settling of dust on a windowsill, the slow appearance of dew upon the morning grass, or the “parable of the pickle”6. 

And so it seems that we learn to only expect the unimpressive and unremarkable. Then, consistent with these expectations, many active and dedicated members of the church end up finding the process of coming unto Christ to be rather lackluster. We all know those who have eventually lost interest in this process, or even those who have completely lost their faith. Many others are white-knuckling it on a type of spiritual hamster-wheel – where despite a lifetime of applying tremendous effort trying to keep the commandments and magnify their callings (hoping to eventually become sufficiently sanctified one day), they rarely feel like they are getting anywhere meaningful with God. 

We have dutifully become the proverbial pickles from the parable. But, unfortunately, too few seem to emerge from the “salt brine” of this life-long pickling process. Too few seem to experience the “signs [that] shall follow them that believe”. Too few seem to be truly born again and converted. We find ourselves believing that the scriptures are full of “exceptional experiences”2 meant for exceptional people – but not for us. 

In stark contrast, the scriptures repeatedly testify that the path to God is a miraculous one... While the way may be narrow “and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:14), it is nonetheless “available unto all those who diligently seek him” (see 1 Nephi 10:17-19) ... “and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth” (see Mormon 9:19-21). Jesus promises a true and mighty conversion that will shatter our expectations...

“Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them... yeah, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely” (see Alma 5:33-37).

It is my witness that we can have this relationship with Him, that He can call us by name, and that He has mysteries and miracles to unfold to us. 

______________________________________________________
1. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng
2. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng
3. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
4. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... d?lang=eng (timestamp 13:00)
5. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
6. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

[cab]

There is a process and an event.
I’ve written this elsewhere, but I’ll copy and paste it here…

Consider the following comparison of our natural birth to the spiritual rebirth:

“… And inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten…” (Moses 6:59)

What are we to understand about the natural birthing process, and what might this teach us about the spiritual rebirth?

Perhaps we can liken the processes and events of the one birth to the other... Each baby is born into this world following a series of processes and events. First, is the event that happens at the time of conception – when the egg becomes fertilized and becomes an embryo. Then begins the nine-month long process of gestation. Once sufficient maturation of all the fetal organs, bones, muscles, physical traits, and senses occurs, the baby turns upside down in the uterus and readies itself for the next short process. This process, the one of labor and delivery, can last between minutes to hours, and can be quite difficult, but it ultimately culminates in the long-anticipated event - the miraculous birth of a new baby.

Now, considering this parable - does the fact that there are several processes involved in pregnancy and childbirth somehow diminish the fact that the culminating event is the birth of an actual baby? Would any prospective mother purposefully submit themselves to the pregnancy process without an actual hope of the anticipated event of receiving a new-born child? Of course not.

This seems to be a common point of confusion about the doctrine of Christ.

We are very good at acknowledging that we are in some sort of spiritual process in coming unto Christ. But we often seem to lack a proper understanding of the nature of the spiritual events that the Lord has promised.

The spiritual rebirth is an event - and it ought to be anticipated, sought for, and received in this life. The Lord can and will heal us and transform us as we are spiritually begotten and reconciled to Him.

We need to stop cosigning ourselves to a sad reality by believing that these blessings cannot occur until sometime after we die. Otherwise, we will continue to be perpetually pregnant with potential, but never delivered to receive our birthright blessings.

Most of us are like spiritual embryos, in the process of development, but not yet reborn. Our hearts, minds, and will are in the process becoming sufficiently broken and contrite. Our faith is in the process of needing to be strengthened to the point of becoming unshaken. Once we are ready, God has promised that we will be spiritually delivered. We will become new creatures with new hearts. We will become partakers of Christ's salvation and recipients of the pure love of Christ. We will be made beacons and exemplars of God's love to all who know us. We will no longer require the training wheels of “the schoolmaster”. We will be His newly born sons and daughters.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

When it happened for me, it included the veil-drop, some visits, all kinds of new information, and was kind of the opening of many experiences that never stopped. The thing I was looking for at first, was "approval", but it came with the rest of the package over time.

[blitzinstripes]

I'm honestly not sure. I have had a few VERY powerful and lasting spiritual experiences that have had lasting, life changing effects on me. It seems to be more like a series of events that began as a child and have become more powerful as they go. The most recent one shifted from what had previously been spiritual encounters felt and experienced through the Spirit and my own spiritual eyes, to a combination which now took on elements of physical form. (Feels like I "leveled up") So to me, my journey feels like I am progressing upward in steps, which makes sense to me. But again, I'm not sure this pattern holds true for everyone.

[blitzinstripes]

Part of the problem, as Cab has mentioned, is that we are taught that the Spirit is always this still small voice. That may be a generalization if the most common manifestation, but those of us who have experienced such things can testify that at times the Spirit is anything BUT still and small. I'm talking full blown pentecostal type experiences, being totally and completely overcome to the exhausting of all of your faculties. I've found myself wiped out and nearly unable to speak, let alone do anything physically for long periods of time after such encounters. I hope that more and more people are waking up and throwing off these chains that have been placed upon them in the form of characteristically LOW spiritual expectations, and that they begin to feel comfortable and motivated to seek out the powerful, miraculous ones. If all you ever achieve is being able to feel a still small prompting and a little warmth in your bosom, you have fallen far short of your glorious spiritual potential. So much more awaits!

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Part of the problem, as Cab has mentioned, is that we are taught that the Spirit is always this still small voice. That may be a generalization if the most common manifestation, but those of us who have experienced such things can testify that at times the Spirit is anything BUT still and small. I'm talking full blown pentecostal type experiences, being totally and completely overcome to the exhausting of all of your faculties. I've found myself wiped out and nearly unable to speak, let alone do anything physically for long periods of time after such encounters. I hope that more and more people are waking up and throwing off these chains that have been placed upon them in the form of characteristically LOW spiritual expectations, and that they begin to feel comfortable and motivated to seek out the powerful, miraculous ones. If all you ever achieve is being able to feel a still small prompting and a little warmth in your bosom, you have fallen far short of your glorious spiritual potential. So much more awaits!

100% they don't prepare you in church for the reality of how all that happens - and it's 100% going to be different from every perspective (just like everything else in existence). We used to have shamans and guides and prophets for this stuff who had actually already experienced such things themselves, and their responsibility was to assist other people thru their own experiences. There's a story about Joseph Smith taking a bunch of guys out in a field teaching them to have visions, for eg. Now I guess we have rule makers and money takers and buy real estate and pharma investment moguls, and you're on your own if you're having real spiritual experiences.

[SJR3t2]

As I see it every part of the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] is connected to His law / Torah.
A Repenting and returning to the law / Torah.
-B Baptism of water is a witness of covenant already made to keep all of His law / Torah.
-B Baptism of fire is a witness you have been judged and found with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and you are then cleansed of your past sins and have been justified by the law / Torah because of Yeshua’s merits.
A Baptism of the Holy Spirit is sanctification by the law / Torah and have it written on your heart and you seek to sin no more and have the express image of Yeshua in your countenance.
Sometimes the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] includes enduring to the end which is keeping the commandments to the end of your life even when the world will judge you negatively for doing so. Other times it will include speaking with the tongue of angels which is simply preaching and teaching the law / Torah and calling people to repentance which is telling them to return to YHWH’s law / Torah.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

[cab]

Part of the problem, as Cab has mentioned, is that we are taught that the Spirit is always this still small voice. That may be a generalization if the most common manifestation, but those of us who have experienced such things can testify that at times the Spirit is anything BUT still and small. I'm talking full blown pentecostal type experiences, being totally and completely overcome to the exhausting of all of your faculties. I've found myself wiped out and nearly unable to speak, let alone do anything physically for long periods of time after such encounters. I hope that more and more people are waking up and throwing off these chains that have been placed upon them in the form of characteristically LOW spiritual expectations, and that they begin to feel comfortable and motivated to seek out the powerful, miraculous ones. If all you ever achieve is being able to feel a still small prompting and a little warmth in your bosom, you have fallen far short of your glorious spiritual potential. So much more awaits!

It is so pitiful how this is taught in church. We generally limit it to be a feeling that confirms whether or not something is true or not. Then we sit in church where all our currently held beliefs are confirmed for us and we are reassured that we are on the right “path” and it feels good emotionally and we believe we are “feeling the spirit”. It is the most blatant form of confirmation bias I know of.

When do we hear people share what the pure intelligence of the spirit taught them? When is scripture (either new or existing) revealed to a believer in an experiential way that imparts first hand knowledge? That is how the spirit teaches.

[cab]

As I see it every part of the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] is connected to His law / Torah.
A Repenting and returning to the law / Torah.
-B Baptism of water is a witness of covenant already made to keep all of His law / Torah.
-B Baptism of fire is a witness you have been judged and found with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and you are then cleansed of your past sins and have been justified by the law / Torah because of Yeshua’s merits.
A Baptism of the Holy Spirit is sanctification by the law / Torah and have it written on your heart and you seek to sin no more and have the express image of Yeshua in your countenance.
Sometimes the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] includes enduring to the end which is keeping the commandments to the end of your life even when the world will judge you negatively for doing so. Other times it will include speaking with the tongue of angels which is simply preaching and teaching the law / Torah and calling people to repentance which is telling them to return to YHWH’s law / Torah.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

[SJR3t2]

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

The holy place has the 10 commandments which the other commandments are based upon. Oil is symbolic of Torah and it along with Yeshua will purify you.

[pjbrownie]

It's a singular event. But once if happens, you can have it again. It's like being inducted into a society of angels and getting an interaction with them on a continual basis.

[cab]

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

The holy place has the 10 commandments which the other commandments are based upon. Oil is symbolic of Torah and it along with Yeshua will purify you.

But the 10 commandments are essentially what is written upon and emanating from our transformed hearts once we come to know (really know) Jesus and the promise he offers.
And encapsulated within the Torah is to love God and love our brothers - upon this is the entire law.
When we truly experience the love of God, then no longer is the Torah written upon stone tablets but now on the fleshy tablets of our hearts.
This is the “new covenant” Jeremiah and others spoke of - a new heart upon which God’s throne and spirit are placed.

[darknesstolight]

It's both.

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

...

[illuminating.Grace]

I just did a study on this a few days ago, here's what I learned: Simple answer - Yes, baptism with water and fire are two separate events.


Sequential Steps (my summary)
1. Repent of Sins and believe in Jesus Christ
2. Show fruit
3. Baptism
4. Teaching of knowledge
5. Sacrament partaking permitted
6. Person baptized is proven in their fruit
7. Confirming membership, by the giving of the Holy Ghost
8. Ordaining him to an office by instruction written in D&C 20:60
- must be sustained by the church if a local ward exists.

D&C 20
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent—
73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
74 Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water.


2nd Nephi 31
1 And now I, Nephi, make an end of my prophesying unto you, my beloved brethren. And I cannot write but a few things, which I know must surely come to pass; neither can I write but a few of the words of my brother Jacob.
2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.
3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.


D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

Member is taught sufficiently and Fruit of Baptism is proven
68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.
69 And the members shall manifest before the church, and also before the elders, by a godly walk and conversation, that they are worthy of it, that there may be works and faith agreeable to the holy scriptures—walking in holiness before the Lord.
70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance.


Giving the Holy Spirit
D&C 20
41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

Ordaining to an Office
60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

NOTE
D&C 20
65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;
66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

[cab]

I just did a study on this a few days ago, here's what I learned: Simple answer - Yes, baptism with water and fire are two separate events.


Sequential Steps (my summary)
1. Repent of Sins and believe in Jesus Christ
2. Show fruit
3. Baptism
4. Teaching of knowledge
5. Sacrament partaking permitted
6. Person baptized is proven in their fruit
7. Confirming membership, by the giving of the Holy Ghost
8. Ordaining him to an office by instruction written in D&C 20:60
- must be sustained by the church if a local ward exists.

D&C 20
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent—
73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
74 Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water.


2nd Nephi 31
1 And now I, Nephi, make an end of my prophesying unto you, my beloved brethren. And I cannot write but a few things, which I know must surely come to pass; neither can I write but a few of the words of my brother Jacob.
2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.
3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.


D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

Member is taught sufficiently and Fruit of Baptism is proven
68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.
69 And the members shall manifest before the church, and also before the elders, by a godly walk and conversation, that they are worthy of it, that there may be works and faith agreeable to the holy scriptures—walking in holiness before the Lord.
70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance.


Giving the Holy Spirit
D&C 20
41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

Ordaining to an Office
60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

NOTE
D&C 20
65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;
66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

My question is this - why does that actual Pentecostal outpouring of a book of Acts / Mosiah 3-5 / Helaman 5-6 outpouring of the actual Gift so seldom happen to us as a people despite our conferral of the gift by the laying on of hands as indicated in the D&C?

I fear that enough false doctrine has entered into our teaching that it has made it very difficult to receive “the Gift” without first shedding a significant portion of the “traditions of our fathers”…

[Dusty Wanderer]

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

The holy place has the 10 commandments which the other commandments are based upon. Oil is symbolic of Torah and it along with Yeshua will purify you.

But the 10 commandments are essentially what is written upon and emanating from our transformed hearts once we come to know (really know) Jesus and the promise he offers.
And encapsulated within the Torah is to love God and love our brothers - upon this is the entire law.
When we truly experience the love of God, then no longer is the Torah written upon stone tablets but now on the fleshy tablets of our hearts.
This is the “new covenant” Jeremiah and others spoke of - a new heart upon which God’s throne and spirit are placed.

Your discussion here about the tabernacle, Holy Place and commandments brought to mind these verses:

2 Nephi 32

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

“All things what ye should do”, “observe to do”… sounds like commandments to me, tailored specifically to us as individuals, and imprinted upon our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. And the only way to receive the ones from the 2nd Comforter is to first obey the ones that come from the 1st Comforter. Well, I mean, that’s how I’ve always understood it. Still working it out.

[BeNotDeceived]

Thus far the polling suggests this is a singular event. If this is the case, then is anyone interested in sharing their experience of baptism of fire?

I already did, but turned out it was Covid which caused my forced quarantine in the Arctic Circle; It culminated with finding my Purple Circle upon my recovery. Maybe it was one or both like the extraordinary timing of my Angel Type Image.

[Peeps]

In Acts there are examples of people (gentiles) getting the baptism of fire before their water baptism.

Acts chapter 2 is the classic example because it was the first-ever on record.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 19 has an example of people who had received the baptism of water only.

Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

However, this group of Gentiles received the baptism of fire before their water baptism in Acts chapter 10.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


The Spirit does not operate by man's rules.

[SJR3t2]

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

The holy place has the 10 commandments which the other commandments are based upon. Oil is symbolic of Torah and it along with Yeshua will purify you.

But the 10 commandments are essentially what is written upon and emanating from our transformed hearts once we come to know (really know) Jesus and the promise he offers.
And encapsulated within the Torah is to love God and love our brothers - upon this is the entire law.
When we truly experience the love of God, then no longer is the Torah written upon stone tablets but now on the fleshy tablets of our hearts.
This is the “new covenant” Jeremiah and others spoke of - a new heart upon which God’s throne and spirit are placed.

The Law / Torah is how YHWH wants us to love Him and others.

[Serragon]

My question is this - why does that actual Pentecostal outpouring of a book of Acts / Mosiah 3-5 / Helaman 5-6 outpouring of the actual Gift so seldom happen to us as a people despite our conferral of the gift by the laying on of hands as indicated in the D&C?

Because we are culturally afraid and embarrassed of real outpourings of the Spirit in our church.

This is why we preach the still small voice to the exclusion of all other manifestations of the Spirit. This is why we don't teach how to differentiate between the Spirit and their emotions. This is why we have become more and more abstract and less practical in our teachings. This is why we teach that it is the laying on of hands that is the generator of priesthood power instead of it being a confirmation for those who were already prepared and/or exhibiting those gifts. This is why our leaders regulate the ordinances and keys with a "normally closed with an occasional slight opening" model instead of "always open with and occasional diminishing when necessary" model.

The church values order and control, and most members believe that the powers of heaven can only exist inside this tightly controlled framework. Any real manifestation of these gifts is met with suspicion, not joy.

[Chris]

I see this principle of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost shared frequently in various groups. Some people feel this is a singular event, others a lifelong pursuit. What say ye?

I will only cite this one verse for now, but there are many more:

2 Nephi 31:13
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

In my opinion it is a singular event. But could happen multiple times in someone's lifetime. Sometimes accompanied by the Savior but doesn't have to be. It is always a precursor to the 2nd comforter though, although that often happens at a later date. Helaman Chapter 5 is a interesting reference to this.....

[EmmaLee]

So nobody has a clue. Got it.

[cab]

I also see it represented in Moses’ tabernacle presentation. To receive the Holy Ghost is to have God dwell within you. You become a living tabernacle of God and leave the outer court to enter in the “Holy Place” where the oil is always burning and the spiritual table is always set.

The holy place has the 10 commandments which the other commandments are based upon. Oil is symbolic of Torah and it along with Yeshua will purify you.

But the 10 commandments are essentially what is written upon and emanating from our transformed hearts once we come to know (really know) Jesus and the promise he offers.
And encapsulated within the Torah is to love God and love our brothers - upon this is the entire law.
When we truly experience the love of God, then no longer is the Torah written upon stone tablets but now on the fleshy tablets of our hearts.
This is the “new covenant” Jeremiah and others spoke of - a new heart upon which God’s throne and spirit are placed.

The Law / Torah is how YHWH wants us to love Him and others.

That’s not quite how I see it. I lean towards the Torah being a strict law of dos and donts that kept people in proper remembrance of God, but was always ineffectual to produce a child of God. I believe a purpose of the law was to teach the Israelites the ineffectiveness of such strict works in order to produce the holiness which accompanies the dwelling place of God and to lead them towards the requisite humility in order to fully submit their will to rely on the merits of YWVH for something greater.