Pluck Out Your Seers

[Luke]

Brigham Young

I'll never understand how you trust BY. He is guilty of every crime in the book. He ruled like a dictator. He used church funds for whatever he wanted. He was quite proud of his cedar city saints executing the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Why are you not employing the dictum of the Lord, "By their fruits ye shall know them"?

Except that none of things are true. All these stories are just typical exaggerated tales from disgruntled BY-haters.

BY absolutely got some things wrong. He taught some incorrect doctrines which clearly weren’t in harmony with JS’ teachings. For instance, teaching that the Apostleship is the highest authority in the Priesthood. Clearly not true.

But I believe that he had a heart of gold, that he was faithful to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and did his best to preserve the celestial law.

I have been told by the whisperings of the Spirit many times not to revile against that man. When I have done so I have gone into darkness. And I won’t do it.

His teachings on the subject of Plural Marriage are true.

[Luke]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg

Will you ever believe any evidence which shows that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? It’s beginning to stack up now, but is summarily dismissed by you and those of your ilk.

[Luke]

“From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg

Will you ever believe any evidence which shows that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? It’s beginning to stack up now, but is summarily dismissed by you and those of your ilk.

“Stack up…” hahah, sure Luke.

[Reluctant Watchman]

“From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)

“William Clayton” need I say more?

[Luke]

“From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)

“William Clayton” need I say more?

Yes, you do need to say more. Show to us why he can’t be trusted. Claiming that he “altered his journal” with zero evidence clearly doesn’t count.

[Luke]

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg

Will you ever believe any evidence which shows that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? It’s beginning to stack up now, but is summarily dismissed by you and those of your ilk.

“Stack up…” hahah, sure Luke.

Except I’ve posted a continuous stream of sources on this forum showing it without a single attempt to dismantle the evidence besides re-quoting the same old denials which have been read a million times over.

[BuriedTartaria]

I didn’t mean to turn this thread into another polygamy debate. I just wanted to add on to the original poster’s New Testament scripture concerning imperfect seers the reaffirmation of that concept in the warning given to Joseph. My life has been edified by a lot of posters here with varying views on the restoration.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Will you ever believe any evidence which shows that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? It’s beginning to stack up now, but is summarily dismissed by you and those of your ilk.

“Stack up…” hahah, sure Luke.

Except I’ve posted a continuous stream of sources on this forum showing it without a single attempt to dismantle the evidence besides re-quoting the same old denials which have been read a million times over.

And I’ve posted the same “continuous stream” of sources in defense of monogamy. Not to mention the argument is quite simple. God never commanded it. There was no “flaming sword”. Let’s try this experiment. You go and live it, and teach it to your children. I will teach the blessings of a virtuous monogamous relationship. We’ll compare notes in heaven. God speed.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I didn’t mean to turn this thread into another polygamy debate. I just wanted to add on to the original poster’s New Testament scripture concerning imperfect seers the reaffirmation of that concept in the warning given to Joseph. My life has been edified by a lot of posters here with varying views on the restoration.

This should be the standard we hold all men to. If they transgress, cut them off and pluck them out. We are to seek Jesus and not be compelled by any other.

[BigT]

Yes, you do need to say more. Show to us why he can’t be trusted. Claiming that he “altered his journal” with zero evidence clearly doesn’t count.

https://youtu.be/F5heXE5xS5w
It starts at about 1:05, with photos of how he altered his own journal. Then goes on.

[I Dont Know...]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

Don't worry. The TBM's (both of them) will be along shortly to tell you that isn't really what Jesus meant, and even if it was, it doesn't matter because if Brigham Young said the prophet can never steer you wrong, then the words of Christ don't matter. Because living prophets always trump dead prophets. Even Christ himself, apparently.

Kinda silly, right? The only response that is more silly (and I've actually heard it), is the "rubber stamp" doctrine. Which basically claims that even IF the prophet were wrong "per SE", he would still be "right", because anything he says the Lord just rubber stamps his approval. You know, the prophet could tell us all to go play in traffic, and because he said it, it doesn't matter if it's horribly wrong, (like the death jabs) the Lord just rubber stamps it and it's suddenly his mind and will for us.

But, hey. That's TOTALLY not the same thing as "infallibility", which we NEVER claim to believe. Totally not the same thing. We're nothing like those heathen Catholics.

..oh Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way...I cant remember where this scripture is found! ...but it sure has a nice ring to it...!

[Luke]

Yes, you do need to say more. Show to us why he can’t be trusted. Claiming that he “altered his journal” with zero evidence clearly doesn’t count.

https://youtu.be/F5heXE5xS5w
It starts at about 1:05, with photos of how he altered his own journal. Then goes on.

It doesn’t show this at all. He crossed out certain entries. That’s it. There is nothing to prove that he retroactively changed his journal entries.

[BigT]

It doesn’t show this at all. He crossed out certain entries. That’s it. There is nothing to prove that he retroactively changed his journal entries.

You don’t consider crossing out, making illegible, large sections of text changing or altering the original entry? Seems to me it’s clear it does.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I found another quote to add to my Timeline of Infallibility:

1860 - Orson Hyde. The following quote comes from meeting minutes where 7 of the brethren were discussing the Adam-God theory presented by Brigham Young the previous evening. Orson Pratt rebutted the teaching as false. Orson Hyde responded:

“I do not feel competent to take up the points of difficulties between bro. Pratt, and bro Young… [But] to acknowledge that this is the Kingdom of God, and that there is a presiding power, and to admit that he can advance incorrect doctrine, is to lay the ax at the foot of the tree. Will he suffer His mouthpiece to go into error? No. he would remove him, and place another there… Bro. Brigham is responsible for the doctrine taught in this Church, and if he did not watch us, and reprove us when wrong, he would not do his duty…he is the presiding authority of God on the earth, then he is legitimate, and everything opposed to him, is not legitimate…God is a jealous God, and His servants are jealous with a Godly jealousy, that the stream may roll in purity.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... y-timeline

[Shawn Henry]

All these stories are just typical exaggerated tales from disgruntled BY-haters.

This thread getting bumped allows me to address this comment because it bothers me. I feel the biggest indictment against BY comes directly from WW.

Well after the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Brigham Young and some of the 12 were at the monument of the Baker-Fancher party. The inscription read their tribute, "Justice is mine, saith the Lord and I will repay". A proper thing to say considering that there is no blacker stain on this country in its history, but BY thought the inscription was wrong. Wilford Woodruff records in his journal that Brigham replied that it should read, "Justice is mine and I have repaid".

So, saints murder a party of 120 in cold blood, a party from Arkansas, having nothing to do with the church. They kill the women and children above the age of 8 by "blunt force". For those who don't know what that means, it means a rock or rifle buttstock to the head or swinging the children by their feet into a wagon wheel. This is what BY felt was from the Lord.

BY attributes the massacre to God and WW confirms it in his diary.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

APPOINTED Seers don't even have to "see" to be appointed by the church.

Real ones are not appointed.

[Reluctant Watchman]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

APPOINTED Seers don't even have to "see" to be appointed by the church.

Real ones are not appointed.

The "appointment" is by the Lord. He calls his prophets. To me, verse 46 is quite accurate.

[illuminating.Grace]

This just blew my mind... I've never read this, and I don't understand how I've never seen it. Thank you. The truth really brings in understanding for how unfaithful presidents and Seers are handled in the church.

[FrankOne]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg

if he publicly gave his position on polygamy from the start, they would have killed him much earlier. He said they would kill him if he told them everything. (3 times). They did.

[FrankOne]

Brigham Young

I'll never understand how you trust BY. He is guilty of every crime in the book. He ruled like a dictator. He used church funds for whatever he wanted. He was quite proud of his cedar city saints executing the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Why are you not employing the dictum of the Lord, "By their fruits ye shall know them"?

he was the tyrant that the members needed. No excuses from me on this. I could never have followed him, but those that did follow him WANTED him. Kinda like today, no? BY's good fruits were self evident and very numerous. His bad fruits are also self evident and numerous. He built a structure and infrastructure which enabled the church to go on. It's all Gods will even if we don't like it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's all Gods will even if we don't like it.

You mean the Lord prophesied of their wicked and fallen state.

[BuriedTartaria]

Pluck out your idols undeserving of the title seer and lose your illusions





Too many of us dwindle in unbelief and maintain an exaggeration, maintain a hindrance, by living these inspired lines from the classic Guns N' Roses track, Locomotive

You can use your illusion -
Let it take you where it may
We live and learn
And then sometimes it's best to walk away
Me I'm just here hangin' on
It's my only place to stay
At least for now anyway
I've worked too hard for my illusions
Just to throw them all away

"I've worked too hard for my illusions just to throw them all away."

[FrankOne]

It's all Gods will even if we don't like it.

You mean the Lord prophesied of their wicked and fallen state.

No, I mean it's all Gods will even if we don't like it.

That doesn't mean that we are to follow inept leaders.

God's will is never thwarted no matter how screwed up men are. Stupid people follow stupid leaders because that is their course. In organizations, things go right and then they go wrong....always in cycles. People have their free will to follow whoever they choose. Dummies follow dummies. Those that see the problem in leadership walk a different course.

As I said; if I had been born in the days of BY, I would have walked away. If I had been a man standing next to Joshua when he told the Israelites to kill every living person in the Canaanite area, I would have walked away as well. Every man has to weigh out what is moral and immoral for himself no matter what 'leaders' instruct.

When religious zealotry supersedes common sense, error follows.

[Mamabear]

Pluck out your idols undeserving of the title seer and lose your illusions





Too many of us dwindle in unbelief and maintain an exaggeration, maintain a hindrance, by living these inspired lines from the classic Guns N' Roses track, Locomotive

You can use your illusion -
Let it take you where it may
We live and learn
And then sometimes it's best to walk away
Me I'm just here hangin' on
It's my only place to stay at least
For now anyway
I've worked too hard for my illusions
Just to throw them all away

"I've worked too hard for my illusions just to throw them all away."

Good post.
As I was waking up one morning, a few weeks ago, I felt someone say to me “everything around you is an illusion except God.” It was pretty interesting.