Pluck Out Your Seers

[Shawn Henry]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

[blitzinstripes]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

Don't worry. The TBM's (both of them) will be along shortly to tell you that isn't really what Jesus meant, and even if it was, it doesn't matter because if Brigham Young said the prophet can never steer you wrong, then the words of Christ don't matter. Because living prophets always trump dead prophets. Even Christ himself, apparently.

Kinda silly, right? The only response that is more silly (and I've actually heard it), is the "rubber stamp" doctrine. Which basically claims that even IF the prophet were wrong "per SE", he would still be "right", because anything he says the Lord just rubber stamps his approval. You know, the prophet could tell us all to go play in traffic, and because he said it, it doesn't matter if it's horribly wrong, (like the death jabs) the Lord just rubber stamps it and it's suddenly his mind and will for us.

But, hey. That's TOTALLY not the same thing as "infallibility", which we NEVER claim to believe. Totally not the same thing. We're nothing like those heathen Catholics.

[Mamabear]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

Thank you for sharing this. I’ve never heard this from the pulpit and never read it….it makes so more much sense then the original text. The other verses are interesting as well 40-48. Especially 42&44.
Such great warnings from Jesus that seers can lead astray because he saw our day.

“Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.”

[Reluctant Watchman]

The church intro to that JST is quite insightful:

“Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.”

Which of the three symbolic body parts was conveniently left out by the church? They are not ignorant, they know what Jesus taught. How ironic they used the phrase “may lead one astray.”

[Mamabear]

The church intro to that JST is quite insightful:

“Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.”

Which of the three symbolic body parts was conveniently left out by the church? They are not ignorant, they know what Jesus taught. How ironic they used the phrase “may lead one astray.”

👁
Too funny!

[Gadianton Slayer]

viewtopic.php?t=63178

[InfoWarrior82]

Didn't Oaks reinforce the rubber stamp doctrine in general conference? Something like "don't criticize them even if they're wrong"?


And secondly, with regards to the appointment of our prophets... We believe that man must be called of God, but we automatically appoint them solely based on their seniority. Where in the scriptures do we find this instruction?


And I really like the question: if the prophet could never lead the church astray, why did Jesus Christ warn that it could happen? Why did the Lord, in the D&C, give us instructions on how to recall a prophet?

[Reluctant Watchman]

The church intro to that JST is quite insightful:

“Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.”

Which of the three symbolic body parts was conveniently left out by the church? They are not ignorant, they know what Jesus taught. How ironic they used the phrase “may lead one astray.”

👁
Too funny!

One of the greatest forms of a lie is the omission.

[BuriedTartaria]

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

I'm not arguing (or entirely disregarding) for a fallen Joseph angle but this warning would be applicable to any seer I'd imagine and ties into what you shared:
Doctrine and Covenants 3: 4
For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

[Shawn Henry]

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

I hadn't noticed verse 44.

This is where Joseph got his 'darkened in their minds' statement that many quote.

[Shawn Henry]

viewtopic.php?t=63178

Wow! And 15 pages. I didn't see that. I read the first page, give me time to read the rest.

[Shawn Henry]

Doctrine and Covenants 3: 4
For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

One could add a little to that verse.

For although a man(JS) may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works(bringing forth scripture), yet if he boasts in his own strength(by saying he has done more than Christ because not even Christ could keep a church together), and sets at naught the counsels of God(monogamy), and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires(teachings taught in secrecy and darkness), he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him(martyrdom).

[Gadianton Slayer]

viewtopic.php?t=63178

Wow! And 15 pages. I didn't see that. I read the first page, give me time to read the rest.

The first page is probably the most interesting.

[TheChristian]

When Jesus told His disciples this story, He was talking to Jews that believed in Him, yes Jews that attended faithfully their local synagogues and went to the temple at the proscribed times, and so the Saviour was not telling them to cast out or excommunicate their fellow Jews, their Rabbis, their levitical priests, He was well aware that many of the Rabbis and Levitical Priests in his disciples local synagogues and at the temple were telling both his disciples and the Jews at large not to follow Jesus and so the Saviour was simply saying not to listen to any Rabbi or priest that sought to prevent them from following Him......
Nothing to do with excommunication, simply a wise word from the lord to turn a deaf ear to any Ecclesiastical leader that sought to turn them away from following Him........
If any religious leader, Priest, Pope or prelate arose and commanded or told you to do something that conflicted with great plainess the Scriptures and continued in this manner, the wise Christian would simply ignore said commands or doctrines and follow the scriptural teaching apon the matter.......
And would not listen, nor follow that religious leader any more...........
In that manner he has cast out that leaders authority over him, plucked from that leader any confidence he had in him, for it would be better for the Christian to be without that leaders influence over him which would lead him to damnation even though the christian might be made friendless and alone, at least he could still without such guides.leaders in his life could still struggle on alone to heaven without the help of his church...........

[Reluctant Watchman]

When Jesus told His disciples this story, He was talking to Jews that believed in Him, yes Jews that attended faithfully their local synagogues and went to the temple at the proscribed times, and so the Saviour was not telling them to cast out or excommunicate their fellow Jews, their Rabbis, their levitical priests, He was well aware that many of the Rabbis and Levitical Priests in his disciples local synagogues and at the temple were telling both his disciples and the Jews at large not to follow Jesus and so the Saviour was simply saying not to listen to any Rabbi or priest that sought to prevent them from following Him......
Nothing to do with excommunication, simply a wise word from the lord to turn a deaf ear to any Ecclesiastical leader that sought to turn them away from following Him........
If any religious leader, Priest, Pope or prelate arose and commanded or told you to do something that conflicted with great plainess the Scriptures and continued in this manner, the wise Christian would simply ignore said commands or doctrines and follow the scriptural teaching apon the matter.......
And would not listen, nor follow that religious leader any more...........
In that manner he has cast out that leaders authority over him, plucked from that leader any confidence he had in him, for it would be better for the Christian to be without that leaders influence over him which would lead him to damnation even though the christian might be made friendless and alone, at least he could still without such guides.leaders in his life could still struggle on alone to heaven without the help of his church...........

Sounds like good advice to follow with the modern LDS org leaders.

[BuriedTartaria]

Doctrine and Covenants 3: 4
For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

One could add a little to that verse.

For although a man(JS) may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works(bringing forth scripture), yet if he boasts in his own strength(by saying he has done more than Christ because not even Christ could keep a church together), and sets at naught the counsels of God(monogamy), and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires(teachings taught in secrecy and darkness), he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him(martyrdom).

And this is one of the great questions of Mormonism. Was that warning heeded or was that warning essentially prophecy and those things happened?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

[Luke]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg (125.53 KiB) Viewed 928 times

[FrankOne]

JST Mark 9:46
"And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Those who are appointed to see for us are called seers. To be appointed is a reference to an actual call from God and shouldn't include self-appointment.

Here the Savior is teaching us that the Seers that are appointed to see for us should be removed, if they become transgressors.

So appointed Seers can transgress, despite their appointment and despite the erroneous "cannot lead astray" teaching.

Do we have any examples of Seers transgressing? Why would the Savior give us this warning?

huh. true enough.

I had to look this one up myself and it's true. I guess this is just one more reason the The Church does not use the JST as their official resource.

MARK 9: 40-48


40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

Would you be ok with me replacing that first sentence with "Joseph was killed for doing God's will"?

God gives us according to the desires of our heart and we desired polygamy, so God has his prophet test our hearts and enabled us to act out our sinful desires. This brings me to William Marks testimony that Joseph came to him just before the martyrdom and said that he and church must repent of polygamy and that he would assist President Marks in excommunicating polygamists. This was too much for the secret chamber, so they orchestrated his death and their rise to power to protect the desires of their hearts.

[Shawn Henry]

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Now insert that into D&C 3:4

[Luke]

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Now insert that into D&C 3:4

It wouldn’t fit, since polygamy is the highest law of God.

“The fulness of the Gospel is the United Order and the order of plural marriage; and without these two principles this Gospel never can be full.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, as quoted in Truth, Vol. 4, No. 6, pg. 104, November 1938)
 
I believe this.

[Shawn Henry]

Brigham Young

I'll never understand how you trust BY. He is guilty of every crime in the book. He ruled like a dictator. He used church funds for whatever he wanted. He was quite proud of his cedar city saints executing the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Why are you not employing the dictum of the Lord, "By their fruits ye shall know them"?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

He was killed because he was a polygamist.

Inscribed on a powder horn belonging to one of his murderers:

“WARSAW REGULATORS - THE END OF THE POLYGAMIST JOSEPH SMITH - KILT AT CARTHAGE JUNE 27, 1844”

722BD396-282D-4F9E-9AA5-2DFDC46C7019.jpeg

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph was killed for teaching and defending truth. The sanctity of monogamy being one of those truths of his day.

Would you be ok with me replacing that first sentence with "Joseph was killed for doing God's will"?

God gives us according to the desires of our heart and we desired polygamy, so God has his prophet test our hearts and enabled us to act out our sinful desires. This brings me to William Marks testimony that Joseph came to him just before the martyrdom and said that he and church must repent of polygamy and that he would assist President Marks in excommunicating polygamists. This was too much for the secret chamber, so they orchestrated his death and their rise to power to protect the desires of their hearts.

“We” did not desire polygamy. Brigham and his cohorts desired polygamy. The church lied to you.