LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 6:30 am**

I’ve been having quite a lengthy discussion with a friend about who is the Holy Spirit of promise mentioned in D&C 88.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

To add a bit more depth we can add Paul’s words in Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

D&C 76 also speaks of this Holy Spirit of promise:

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

There is a talk by Joseph where he reportedly said the following:

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins, and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after Righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son thou shalt be exalted &c. When the Lord has thoro’ly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard, then the man will find his calling and Election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the xiv ch, from the 12th. to the 27th. verses— Note the 16. 17. 18. 21. 23. Verses [proceeds to read noted verses] Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself, and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter, that when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time, and even he will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, and this is the State and place the Ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious vision— Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the third heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born.”
- JS Discourse, 27 June 1839, Commerce Illinois

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 7:11 am**

Is there a first shall be last thing going on here?

Baptism of water then fire... First comforter then second comforter?

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 7:41 pm**

Wrong question in the OP. Should be "what" not "who". "who" is the delivery mechanism.

In D&C 131:5 several different mentions of HSoP exist. As for the "second comforter", it may well be that some get it from Jesus but most get it from HG in this life (if they become elect) and all get it at the judgment time (whenever that is for each person). in 132, it says/implies that the HSoP may be a single living person with the true sealing authority (like Elijah), (not that every PSR has this pure power) that can truly seal up and bind on earth. So, would not Elijah be enough per OT?

So, I see it as the power of "god" to seal up an ordinance or reward (tied to a law). It may be manifest in multiple ways as it seems fit. Either Jesus may come (I think quite rarely in life due to the problem that after you get it you are held to a new standard), or the HG (seems like the normal path), or a person with sealing power (could be a PSR but only Elijah equivalent).

Think about C&E Made Sure. It is one thing to be "elect" or have your "C&E", it is another thing to be told about it "made sure" or have it revealed. We conflate these things all the time.

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 7:43 pm**

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 8:00 pm**

This is the verse from the Nemenhah Record that sparked the controversy:

14) Behold, the Holy Ghost has but two purposes. One of them is to more fully instruct your minds that you may have a more complete understanding of the word of the Peacemaker. In this way, He does magnify your spirit, imprinting upon you the very gospel of peace. Verily, He does testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, and He does bring all things to your remembrance.

15) The other purpose is to cause all truth to become part of you. In other words, all things become part of you and your creation. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise, and it is by this Spirit that you may be sealed up unto Christ and become His.

16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, lest you be sealed unto Christ, when heaven and earth pass away, so shall you also pass away and be not found in this New and everlasting Covenant.

17) But when this Holy Spirit of Promise exercises His function upon you, when heaven and earth pass away, yet shall you remain, for, you have become Christ’s. This is the sealing power. It is for this reason that you come up unto the Temple to make covenants with Heavenly Beings. Verily, there is no other reason for you to walk these halls, if it is not to come into the presence of your Peacemaker.

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 8:01 pm**

ransomme wrote: ↑June 25th, 2022, 7:11 am Is there a first shall be last thing going on here?

Baptism of water then fire... First comforter then second comforter?

After thinking about this more, I wonder if there are dual roles of the HG. And still beyond that there is the gift of the Second Comforter.

Posted: **June 25th, 2022, 11:16 pm**

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one.

Inasmuch as Jesus is speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost (which He always is), then He is the Holy Spirit of promise.

But this doctrine that Christ needs to appear to you in order for you to have your calling and election made sure is clearly not true. The Holy Spirit making that promise is what is sufficient. Alma was sealed up to eternal life just by the voice of the Spirit.

If Christ, angels, or even a man moved upon by the Holy Ghost speaks that same promise then the sealing is valid.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am**

My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.

Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I (Jesus) will pray the Father, and he (the Father) shall give you another Comforter, that he (the Second Comforter) may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (the Second Comforter) not, neither knoweth him (the Second Comforter): but ye know him (the Second Comforter); for he (the Second Comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

D&C 88
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 7:02 am**

Seeker144k wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.
Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I (Jesus) will pray the Father, and he (the Father) shall give you another Comforter, that he (the Second Comforter) may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (the Second Comforter) not, neither knoweth him (the Second Comforter): but ye know him (the Second Comforter); for he (the Second Comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

D&C 88
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.
If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker

I appreciate this, especially the last part. Can you clarify something for me? Does the Holy Spirit dwell inside of us and then when we progress, the second comforter comes and dwells? Is that what you’re saying or am I misunderstanding?

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 9:50 am**

I do not believe a person can "channel" the HSoP or god would use them in this way just because they are one of the elect. There must be more (and secretly being a missionary for the Church of the Firstborn doesn't count). That just doesn't fit the Lord's methods or any scripture. Being elect does not give one authority to speak as god to others. We have Jesus speaking for god (all three) I see that, but that is a god, not a basic elect person. you can quote JS, in vision, quoting god, and some of the prophets/apostles in their role but not as an elect man. And frankly, any person comes to me speaking as god, in first person, I would gladly cast Satan out of them to do them a favor.

And you have no idea what Jonah's personal situation was with the Lord, to claim to know which prophets are elect and which aren't is hubris. IMO.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 9:59 am**

I almost hate to bring this up as it does bring some conflict with LDS doctrine today as LDS.org says HSoP is HG and the following quote is from Tom Phillips and claims this is part of the LDS second anointing ordinance, i.e. bestowing the HSoP on the one sealed up.

"The ordnance gave me the fullness of the priesthood, and a blessing was given which included the
sealing power to bind and loose, curse and bless. The blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Holy Spirit of Promise bestowed."

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 10:38 am**

Seeker144k wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.
Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I (Jesus) will pray the Father, and he (the Father) shall give you another Comforter, that he (the Second Comforter) may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (the Second Comforter) not, neither knoweth him (the Second Comforter): but ye know him (the Second Comforter); for he (the Second Comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

D&C 88
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.
If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker

Thanks for the thoughts. They offer much to ponder.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 10:41 am**

TheDuke wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 9:50 am I do not believe a person can "channel" the HSoP or god would use them in this way just because they are one of the elect. There must be more (and secretly being a missionary for the Church of the Firstborn doesn't count). That just doesn't fit the Lord's methods or any scripture. Being elect does not give one authority to speak as god to others. We have Jesus speaking for god (all three) I see that, but that is a god, not a basic elect person. you can quote JS, in vision, quoting god, and some of the prophets/apostles in their role but not as an elect man. And frankly, any person comes to me speaking as god, in first person, I would gladly cast Satan out of them to do them a favor.

And you have no idea what Jonah's personal situation was with the Lord, to claim to know which prophets are elect and which aren't is hubris. IMO.

There are many who share “thus saith the Lord” passages. It is up to us individually to discern wether these come from a light or dark place. I think all of us have had, are having, or will have both of these polarizing influences.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 1:02 pm**

Doctrine and Covenants 124:
124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you.

There is no longer a Church Patriarch. This administration is by virtue of the Patriarchal Priesthood of which the following section describes:

Doctrine and Covenants 2:
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 11:30 pm**

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 25th, 2022, 8:00 pm This is the verse from the Nemenhah Record that sparked the controversy:

14) Behold, the Holy Ghost has but two purposes. One of them is to more fully instruct your minds that you may have a more complete understanding of the word of the Peacemaker. In this way, He does magnify your spirit, imprinting upon you the very gospel of peace. Verily, He does testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, and He does bring all things to your remembrance.

15) The other purpose is to cause all truth to become part of you. In other words, all things become part of you and your creation. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise, and it is by this Spirit that you may be sealed up unto Christ and become His.

16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, lest you be sealed unto Christ, when heaven and earth pass away, so shall you also pass away and be not found in this New and everlasting Covenant.

17) But when this Holy Spirit of Promise exercises His function upon you, when heaven and earth pass away, yet shall you remain, for, you have become Christ’s. This is the sealing power. It is for this reason that you come up unto the Temple to make covenants with Heavenly Beings. Verily, there is no other reason for you to walk these halls, if it is not to come into the presence of your Peacemaker.

The Nemenhah Record isn't scripture. That's the issue you're running into here. The first post makes it clear (in my opinion) that the HSOP is Christ.

Posted: **June 26th, 2022, 11:34 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 7:02 am
Seeker144k wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.
Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I (Jesus) will pray the Father, and he (the Father) shall give you another Comforter, that he (the Second Comforter) may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (the Second Comforter) not, neither knoweth him (the Second Comforter): but ye know him (the Second Comforter); for he (the Second Comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

D&C 88
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.
If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker
I appreciate this, especially the last part. Can you clarify something for me? Does the Holy Spirit dwell inside of us and then when we progress, the second comforter comes and dwells? Is that what you’re saying or am I misunderstanding?

I'm not sure what Seeker is saying, but the Second Comforter cannot dwell inside of you. That is an old sectarian notion and is false, according to Joseph Smith.

"when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time"

He will appear unto him from time to time

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 7:41 am**

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 11:30 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 25th, 2022, 8:00 pm This is the verse from the Nemenhah Record that sparked the controversy:

14) Behold, the Holy Ghost has but two purposes. One of them is to more fully instruct your minds that you may have a more complete understanding of the word of the Peacemaker. In this way, He does magnify your spirit, imprinting upon you the very gospel of peace. Verily, He does testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, and He does bring all things to your remembrance.

15) The other purpose is to cause all truth to become part of you. In other words, all things become part of you and your creation. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise, and it is by this Spirit that you may be sealed up unto Christ and become His.

16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, lest you be sealed unto Christ, when heaven and earth pass away, so shall you also pass away and be not found in this New and everlasting Covenant.

17) But when this Holy Spirit of Promise exercises His function upon you, when heaven and earth pass away, yet shall you remain, for, you have become Christ’s. This is the sealing power. It is for this reason that you come up unto the Temple to make covenants with Heavenly Beings. Verily, there is no other reason for you to walk these halls, if it is not to come into the presence of your Peacemaker.
The Nemenhah Record isn't scripture. That's the issue you're running into here. The first post makes it clear (in my opinion) that the HSOP is Christ.

We can disagree. Have you ever read it?

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 7:42 am**

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 11:34 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 7:02 am
Seeker144k wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.
Here are the verses as “recorded in the testimony of John”: (I’ve omitted 21-25 for brevity)

16 And I (Jesus) will pray the Father, and he (the Father) shall give you another Comforter, that he (the Second Comforter) may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (the Second Comforter) not, neither knoweth him (the Second Comforter): but ye know him (the Second Comforter); for he (the Second Comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

D&C 88
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.
If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker
I appreciate this, especially the last part. Can you clarify something for me? Does the Holy Spirit dwell inside of us and then when we progress, the second comforter comes and dwells? Is that what you’re saying or am I misunderstanding?
I'm not sure what Seeker is saying, but the Second Comforter cannot dwell inside of you. That is an old sectarian notion and is false, according to Joseph Smith.

"when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time"

He will appear unto him from time to time

Then what does the Savior mean when he says this other Comforter will dwell in you? That He will dwell in you?

This is why I feel the HG is vital in answering this question. THEY are the godhead.

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 9:13 am**

HOLY GHOST is A HE

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Joseph Smith Diary (kept by Willard Richards)

[A]gain reverted to Elders Hyde mistake. &c. the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit—and a person cannot have the personage of the H G in his heart[.] [H]e may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. It may descend upon him but not to tarry with him[.]* (Words of Joseph Smith, p.173)

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

Certainly the Holy Ghost is an office just as the Messiah is an office.

“Peter and Stephen testify that they saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one presides over all.” Joseph Smith History of the Church vol 5, p426

“Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages … are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Witness or Testator.”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 190)

“[It is] the province of the Father to preside as the Chief or President, Jesus as the Mediator, and the Holy Ghost as the Testator or Witness. The Son [has] a tabernacle and so [does] the Father, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernacle.” (“Chapter 2: God the Eternal Father,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),36–44

“The scripture says, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], and again that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one, and these three agree in the same thing [see 1 John 5:7–8]. So did the Savior pray to the Father, ‘I pray not for the world, but for those whom ye gave me out of the world, that we might be one,’ or to say, be of one mind in the unity of the faith [see John 17:9, 11]. But everyone being a different or separate person, so are God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost separate persons, but they all agree in one or the selfsame thing.” ~ Joseph Smith

“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 41–42).

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 5:56 pm**

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 27th, 2022, 7:41 am
Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 11:30 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 25th, 2022, 8:00 pm This is the verse from the Nemenhah Record that sparked the controversy:

14) Behold, the Holy Ghost has but two purposes. One of them is to more fully instruct your minds that you may have a more complete understanding of the word of the Peacemaker. In this way, He does magnify your spirit, imprinting upon you the very gospel of peace. Verily, He does testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, and He does bring all things to your remembrance.

15) The other purpose is to cause all truth to become part of you. In other words, all things become part of you and your creation. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise, and it is by this Spirit that you may be sealed up unto Christ and become His.

16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, lest you be sealed unto Christ, when heaven and earth pass away, so shall you also pass away and be not found in this New and everlasting Covenant.

17) But when this Holy Spirit of Promise exercises His function upon you, when heaven and earth pass away, yet shall you remain, for, you have become Christ’s. This is the sealing power. It is for this reason that you come up unto the Temple to make covenants with Heavenly Beings. Verily, there is no other reason for you to walk these halls, if it is not to come into the presence of your Peacemaker.
The Nemenhah Record isn't scripture. That's the issue you're running into here. The first post makes it clear (in my opinion) that the HSOP is Christ.
We can disagree. Have you ever read it?

I have read some of it.

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 5:59 pm**

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 27th, 2022, 7:42 am
Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 11:34 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 7:02 am
Seeker144k wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 4:08 am My experience is that the Holy Spirit of Promise is the spirit of truth which cannot lie, speaks for God, is the voice of Christ, speaks the words of Christ and delivers the promise of eternal life. (Like Luke said above.

The Second Comforter is more than the Holy Ghost or the comforter received after Baptism. Just as the the Holy Ghost can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but is received fully after baptism by those willing to receive it, So too the Second Comforter can be temporarily experienced prior to receiving the Gift, but is received fully after being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by those willing to receive it.

The Holy Ghost administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the gate and becomes quickened by the Terrestrial world/glory. A person who has received the Holy Ghost can speak his words and by it's power. This is exampled by every prophet throughout the scriptures, including those like Jonah who had not received the Second Comforter.

The Second Comforter administers to the Telestial world in power but cannot be received fully until someone passes through the 2nd gate and becomes quickened by the Celestial world/glory. A person who has received the Second Comforter can speak for him as if they were him, (his words and by his power). This is the spirit of Christ that speaks in the first person. Jesus is the embodiment of this spirit and spoke in first person the words of Christ regularly. Statements like following are spoken by the Second Comforter, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The Holy Ghost will not speak this way, but the Second Comforter will. It is easy for someone to mistake the message as coming from the physical messenger and not the Spirit of Christ. Another example of this is when Joseph Smith wrote, "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." (D&C 88:50)

Honestly, I have felt uncomfortable when it has spoken through me because it speaks in the first person and it looks to others outside of me as if I were speaking of myself when I am only acting as the voice for the Second Comforter which is speaking from the first person through me.

The fulness of the Father, is given to all who are quickened by the Celestial, but is only received as much as the individual seeks and is willing to receive it. This includes the sealing power which is given to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. But like the receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and learning to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, it takes time and effort to learn to receive and use the fulness of the Father after it is given.

So, back to the Second Comforter, realizing that it likes to speak in the first person, we can reread the verse in John the see when Jesus the man is speaking about the Second Comforter and when the Second Comforter/spirit of Christ is speaking in the first person through Jesus.

To make it easy, I'll color the words spoken by Jesus the man talking about the Second Comforter in blue, and the words spoken by the Second Comforter speaking in the first person through Jesus in green.

Now, hopefully you can see where the confusion comes from and the solution to the confusion. Jesus the man was telling us about the Second Comforter in verses 16-17 speaking about it in third person, (him/he). Jesus tells us that the "Spirit of Truth shall be in you". Of course Jesus the man cannot be in us any more than I can be in you or you could be in me. But the Second Comforter can be in you and you in it.

Then in verse 18-26, the Spirit of Christ begins speaking through Jesus the man and is talking in the first person using the first person pronoun "I". It tells us that it is "in my Father" and says, "ye (are) in me" and "I (am) in you". Jesus the man is not in me and I am not in Jesus the man, and my flesh/body cannot occupy the same space as the Flesh/body of Jesus the man, but the Spirit of Christ is in me and I am in him. If you compare this type of speech, it matches up perfectly to the being that is speaking with first person pronouns through Joseph Smith in D&C 88 saying,

If you read the chapter to determine who is speaking in that verse, we are told that it is, God who is in and through all things and the power by which all things were created and are governed. Examples are given of the Sun, Earth, moon and stars saying that he, (God), is in all of them and the power by which they were made and that "any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God", (D&C 88:47). We have all seen the sun, moon and stars, and these verse tell us that we have seen God but didn't comprehend him. But not all of us have seen the man Jesus. And, the man Jesus is not in the Sun or the Moon or the Stars. The man Jesus is not "the true light that is in us" and we are not in the man Jesus.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or just sound like a rambling fool. But, that is my experience having received the Second Comforter. Also, I would add that receiving the Second Comforter is like having a spiritual connection directly to Christ, with conversation level communication as opposed to impressions, feelings, and inspirations from the spirit. Having the Second Comforter is not just having the promise of eternal life the way D&C 88:4 appears to say. It is to be able to talk freely with him much like you or I would talk, but spiritually, inside you. He is literally in you and you are in him as if you are telepathically connected.

~Seeker
I appreciate this, especially the last part. Can you clarify something for me? Does the Holy Spirit dwell inside of us and then when we progress, the second comforter comes and dwells? Is that what you’re saying or am I misunderstanding?
I'm not sure what Seeker is saying, but the Second Comforter cannot dwell inside of you. That is an old sectarian notion and is false, according to Joseph Smith.

"when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time"

He will appear unto him from time to time
Then what does the Savior mean when he says this other Comforter will dwell in you? That He will dwell in you?

This is why I feel the HG is vital in answering this question. THEY are the godhead.

I guess in the same way that the Godhead is separate beings, even though they are described as "I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
I'm changing my answer to the poll though. Instead of Jesus Christ, I think HSOP can be an office and can be filled by a mortal man. For example, "whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven".

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 6:12 pm**

It is my belief that it is the literal voice of Christ, himself. When He says "Son, though shalt be exalted", that is the sure word of prophecy. It's not just a warm and fuzzy feeling. This is next level stuff. In fact, I believe He will place His resurrected hands on your head when He says it.

There is no room for interpretation or doubt. Thus the sure word of prophecy.

For what it's worth, it might be worth a mention that a personal visit by the Lord may not mean that your Calling and Election is sure based only upon the visitation. I believe that an initial (or several) visitations happen prior to that declaration. It's still line upon line. Obtaining your first audience with the Lord is part of the path, but not the final destination.

I have been told by several people in whom I have the deepest confidence, that He will then give you further instruction and light and knowledge,which will lead you then, to the final culminating event of your mortal probation. It's still a process, even after He makes his abode with you.

I feel as if we fail immeasurably, in adequately teaching the principle and in seeking this above all.

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 7:13 pm**

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 27th, 2022, 5:56 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 27th, 2022, 7:41 am
Wolfwoman wrote: ↑June 26th, 2022, 11:30 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 25th, 2022, 8:00 pm This is the verse from the Nemenhah Record that sparked the controversy:

14) Behold, the Holy Ghost has but two purposes. One of them is to more fully instruct your minds that you may have a more complete understanding of the word of the Peacemaker. In this way, He does magnify your spirit, imprinting upon you the very gospel of peace. Verily, He does testify to you of the truthfulness of all things, and He does bring all things to your remembrance.

15) The other purpose is to cause all truth to become part of you. In other words, all things become part of you and your creation. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise, and it is by this Spirit that you may be sealed up unto Christ and become His.

16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, lest you be sealed unto Christ, when heaven and earth pass away, so shall you also pass away and be not found in this New and everlasting Covenant.

17) But when this Holy Spirit of Promise exercises His function upon you, when heaven and earth pass away, yet shall you remain, for, you have become Christ’s. This is the sealing power. It is for this reason that you come up unto the Temple to make covenants with Heavenly Beings. Verily, there is no other reason for you to walk these halls, if it is not to come into the presence of your Peacemaker.
The Nemenhah Record isn't scripture. That's the issue you're running into here. The first post makes it clear (in my opinion) that the HSOP is Christ.
We can disagree. Have you ever read it?
I have read some of it.

Some... Like a few words? There are 680 pages.

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 9:38 pm**

So, is this thread about the HSoP or some random thoughts from non-scriptural sources? I find a discussion of HSoP, very wonderful, but don't care to talk about the non-scriptural elements. Not that they cannot be introduced as discussion (anything is fair game here) but as contributing to the discussion, not fact finding the new stuff?

If this thread is about HSoP as stated in the OP and LDS scriptures, lets continue, if not lets make a new thread and let this one be about Reluctants new bible.

Assuming the first (i.e. as in OP). then I think we need to talk about two separate aspects and keep those separate and clean. First, is who/what is HSoP (HG, title, role, PH authority, all gods, etc..... what ever). and Second, how and by whom may it be manifest in the flesh (Savior in person, HG is person, HG in spirit, PSR, any elect person god chooses, one at a time, many at a time, etc...)

I put out a statement that LDS.org says HSoP is HG, and it says in 132 that one person on the ear holds the power (lDS hand out sealing authority to sealer, is that the same thing but delegated?), LDS also informally (via Tom Philips) that when you get your second anointing, you get to be a HSoP channeler or something like that.

Let me know which discussion should be had here (LDS'ish perspective or Nenemah)

Posted: **June 27th, 2022, 10:05 pm**

TheDuke wrote: ↑June 27th, 2022, 9:38 pm So, is this thread about the HSoP or some random thoughts from non-scriptural sources? I find a discussion of HSoP, very wonderful, but don't care to talk about the non-scriptural elements. Not that they cannot be introduced as discussion (anything is fair game here) but as contributing to the discussion, not fact finding the new stuff?

If this thread is about HSoP as stated in the OP and LDS scriptures, lets continue, if not lets make a new thread and let this one be about Reluctants new bible.

Assuming the first (i.e. as in OP). then I think we need to talk about two separate aspects and keep those separate and clean. First, is who/what is HSoP (HG, title, role, PH authority, all gods, etc..... what ever). and Second, how and by whom may it be manifest in the flesh (Savior in person, HG is person, HG in spirit, PSR, any elect person god chooses, one at a time, many at a time, etc...)

I put out a statement that LDS.org says HSoP is HG, and it says in 132 that one person on the ear holds the power (lDS hand out sealing authority to sealer, is that the same thing but delegated?), LDS also informally (via Tom Philips) that when you get your second anointing, you get to be a HSoP channeler or something like that.

Let me know which discussion should be had here (LDS'ish perspective or Nenemah)

Go start your own thread.

LDS Freedom Forum

Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?

Re: Who is the Holy Spirit of promise?