Russell "Golden Calf" Nelson

[John Tavner]

In order to receive forgiveness you too must forgive regardless of whether or not they sought your forgiveness. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

A better question: Why on earth do you want to hold onto unforgiveness towards others for the rest of your life. You are creating a hell for yourself.

Your first sentence directly contradicts Christ's words. Yes, I can forgive the FP for the shenanigans they've pulled. I can forgive someone for killing my child or any other type of sin, but what we are talking about in Luke is also part of that process of forgiveness. Your line of thinking is what has caused a lot of heartache within the church. "Forgive and forget" is the oft repeated mantra.

They are not contradicting CHrists words I quoted Christ like 4 times saying exactly what I said.. You have unforgiveness in your heart because you don't want to forgive becuase you would rather hold onto anger or because you are afraid whether it is of abuse, of being hurt, or of something else, it doesn't matter, it is there. It is a lot easier to hold onto those emotions. Life is a lot better when you learn to let go, though. It is a lot better when you learn to let Christ live in your life and bear your cross rather than constantly trying to force everyone else onto the cross. I don't have to let people abuse me to let go, but I can put myself in their shoes. It is actually a bit heartbreaking because peoples hearts really are waxing cold because they are using human justification to live their life rather than fully submitting to the will of the Father. What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? Let me put that in bold What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? To truly bear it? Do you think it is so we don't have to become like Him? Was He the most perfect example so we could just look and say "yeah.. but not me?"Most individuals I find who believe as you do have not fully received Christ's forgiveness in their life. Sure, they have felt forgiven, but thye haven't lived forgiven and htere is a difference. They haven't had to rely or rather haven't reached a point in which they submitted ot such an extend that they received the mercy He has offered and felt the immense change in their life, which shows just how merciful God is their life is still the old life. To where all they can do is walk daily in gratitude for His mercy. The tragedy is that the church today talks about stuff but doesn't understand it including forgiveness. Your approach actually leads to living a life of hell it is a telestial way of living. Daily anger and frustration become a part of your life, the peace of Christ doesn't fill it. Indeed the only peace people generally feel when living this life is the peace of "self-righteousnss" they think because they know they are better and therefore more righteous. They pray and when they pray they feel really good about their beliefs and think all others are fools and lost and they are the only ones found. Yet inside they constantly argue and fight and hate and at the end of the day don't look any more like Christ than any other person who claims to be a Christian. Part of this comes and ill placed zeal for truth written in word rather than in relationship with God, they seek after words that justify their own thinking rather than turning to God and having Him change their mind, which is true repentance. Anyone who thinks they don't have to forgive unless someone else asks for it will be in for a rude awakening when you come before the Lord and realize all the times you hurt people and did not seek forgiveness, You will judge yourself by yourself and live in your own personal hell you will be judged by how you judge "they didn't ask, so they shouldn't get" The Lord looks at you "You didn't ask, so you shouldn't receive" "Oh but Lord, I didn't know" "Oh but you did, you just justified yourself" - it is why half of the world's hearts are failing them. IT is why there is such hate and anger. There are few Christians and a lot of accusers. THere are a lot of people running around looking at hte mote in their brothers or their enemies eye, but ignoring hte beam in their own. As Alma stated

Finally, my thinking has not caused any heartache. Heartache comes from not actually forgiving but saying you have. It comes from not doing things courageously, but doing it because you are brow beat into it or "guilted" into doing something someone else percieves as good. It come from manipulation and not from standing on "The Rock." The truth will set you free and Freedom is being able to take the hit because you love hte other person enough that you know thye aren't thinking right and their thinking and view is wrong, but you have hope for them. Freedom is willingly carrying our cross and denying ourselves "If any come unto me first they must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow me." We are all a bunch of hypocrites playing at self-righteousness and I include myself in that and the cleansing that GOd will do to all, including those who have been born again will be glorious, for all of us err even the most humble followers of Christ.

Here are Alma's words: 17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

The joy behind all of this is that God IS merciful and He will see us as if we never sinned if we repent and change our minds. His Hand is held out all the day long, beckoning calling, so ready to clothe us in His righteousness if we learn to believe but hte reality is that we are a faithless and perverse (twisted thinking) generation, just like the Jews of Old. Thank God for His mercy.

[Reluctant Watchman]

In order to receive forgiveness you too must forgive regardless of whether or not they sought your forgiveness. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

A better question: Why on earth do you want to hold onto unforgiveness towards others for the rest of your life. You are creating a hell for yourself.

Your first sentence directly contradicts Christ's words. Yes, I can forgive the FP for the shenanigans they've pulled. I can forgive someone for killing my child or any other type of sin, but what we are talking about in Luke is also part of that process of forgiveness. Your line of thinking is what has caused a lot of heartache within the church. "Forgive and forget" is the oft repeated mantra.

They are not contradicting CHrists words I quoted Christ like 4 times saying exactly what I said.. You have unforgiveness in your heart because you don't want to forgive becuase you would rather hold onto anger or because you are afraid whether it is of abuse, of being hurt, or of something else, it doesn't matter, it is there. It is a lot easier to hold onto those emotions. Life is a lot better when you learn to let go, though. It is a lot better when you learn to let Christ live in your life and bear your cross rather than constantly trying to force everyone else onto the cross. I don't have to let people abuse me to let go, but I can put myself in their shoes. It is actually a bit heartbreaking because peoples hearts really are waxing cold because they are using human justification to live their life rather than fully submitting to the will of the Father. What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? Let me put that in bold What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? To truly bear it? Do you think it is so we don't have to become like Him? Was He the most perfect example so we could just look and say "yeah.. but not me?"Most individuals I find who believe as you do have not fully received Christ's forgiveness in their life. Sure, they have felt forgiven, but thye haven't lived forgiven and htere is a difference. They haven't had to rely or rather haven't reached a point in which they submitted ot such an extend that they received the mercy He has offered and felt the immense change in their life, which shows just how merciful God is their life is still the old life. To where all they can do is walk daily in gratitude for His mercy. The tragedy is that the church today talks about stuff but doesn't understand it including forgiveness. Your approach actually leads to living a life of hell it is a telestial way of living. Daily anger and frustration become a part of your life, the peace of Christ doesn't fill it. Indeed the only peace people generally feel when living this life is the peace of "self-righteousnss" they think because they know they are better and therefore more righteous. They pray and when they pray they feel really good about their beliefs and think all others are fools and lost and they are the only ones found. Yet inside they constantly argue and fight and hate and at the end of the day don't look any more like Christ than any other person who claims to be a Christian. Part of this comes and ill placed zeal for truth written in word rather than in relationship with God, they seek after words that justify their own thinking rather than turning to God and having Him change their mind, which is true repentance. Anyone who thinks they don't have to forgive unless someone else asks for it will be in for a rude awakening when you come before the Lord and realize all the times you hurt people and did not seek forgiveness, You will judge yourself by yourself and live in your own personal hell you will be judged by how you judge "they didn't ask, so they shouldn't get" The Lord looks at you "You didn't ask, so you shouldn't receive" "Oh but Lord, I didn't know" "Oh but you did, you just justified yourself" - it is why half of the world's hearts are failing them. IT is why there is such hate and anger. There are few Christians and a lot of accusers. THere are a lot of people running around looking at hte mote in their brothers or their enemies eye, but ignoring hte beam in their own. As Alma stated

Finally, my thinking has not caused any heartache. Heartache comes from not actually forgiving but saying you have. It comes from not doing things courageously, but doing it because you are brow beat into it or "guilted" into doing something someone else percieves as good. It come from manipulation and not from standing on "The Rock." The truth will set you free and Freedom is being able to take the hit because you love hte other person enough that you know thye aren't thinking right and their thinking and view is wrong, but you have hope for them. Freedom is willingly carrying our cross and denying ourselves "If any come unto me first they must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow me." We are all a bunch of hypocrites playing at self-righteousness and I include myself in that and the cleansing that GOd will do to all, including those who have been born again will be glorious, for all of us err even the most humble followers of Christ.

Here are Alma's words: 17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

The joy behind all of this is that God IS merciful and He will see us as if we never sinned if we repent and change our minds. His Hand is held out all the day long, beckoning calling, so ready to clothe us in His righteousness if we learn to believe but hte reality is that we are a faithless and perverse (twisted thinking) generation, just like the Jews of Old. Thank God for His mercy.

IMO your view of the full process of forgiveness and repentance is a bit myopic. Yes, I agree with some of what you say, but I in no way see my viewpoint as "living a life of hell." I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness.

Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?

[FoundMyEden]

Agreed. This is taught completely backwards and does so much damage to people who forgive the unrepentant. Thank you for bringing this up.

JohnT also mentioned forgiveness 70x7 and I believe we aren’t asked to forgive 490x’s (even if it’s metaphorical…it still makes no sense.) I believe it has to do with Daniels 70 week prophecy. It makes a lot more sense.

Probably why so much sex abuse has and is swept under the rug over the past several decades.

Well it’s certainly not helping the problem for sure.

[Original_Intent]

Life is a Rorschach test, and what we see says more about you than about what you are seeing.

While I believe there is much interpretation, that still doesn't make all interpretations correct.

Everybody thinks their interpretation is the correct one.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Life is a Rorschach test, and what we see says more about you than about what you are seeing.

While I believe there is much interpretation, that still doesn't make all interpretations correct.

Everybody thinks their interpretation is the correct one.

I don't see it that way. I have many questions that are not answered. I hold many "interpretations" as "what if's" and "possibly", but don't take a hard stance.

What this line of thinking leads to is everybody having their own "truth." Which reverts us right back to where Joseph found himself with the revivals of his day. The restoration was quite clear on a good many things. Sure, we can each find truth in many areas of our lives, and find very distinct directions, but there are, IMO, some very set "eternal truths" that do not vacillate with the whims of individuals.

[Subcomandante]

I know of at least six buildings in the city near where I live where the buildings are bigger than the Church Office Building.

Try again.

You couldn't do that when it was built. It was the tallest building by five stories in Utah when it was built and remained that way for 25 years.

I don't live in Utah. Your point is moot.

[madvin]

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

You have contorted the 12th beyond comprehension.

In the USA the Supreme law of the land is the constitution....PERIOD....END OF STORY!!!!

Furthur, obedience to leaders ONLY applies if THEY are following the constitution...the Supreme law of the land. All bets are off if they are not following.

The morons at the UN, WEF, WHO are NOT ELECTED by the people...they are NOT our representatives...and certainly NOT our leaders!!!

These organizations subvert the constitution. Study Ezra T. Benson for further understanding.
[/quote]

Red pill is correct. 100%

D&C 134

5) We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgements are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time , however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

We are not and never have been under the thumb of the UN or any of its appendages (which are many).

God holds men accountable for their acts in both making and administering laws for the good and safety of society.

[Subcomandante]

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

You have contorted the 12th beyond comprehension.

In the USA the Supreme law of the land is the constitution....PERIOD....END OF STORY!!!!

Furthur, obedience to leaders ONLY applies if THEY are following the constitution...the Supreme law of the land. All bets are off if they are not following.

The morons at the UN, WEF, WHO are NOT ELECTED by the people...they are NOT our representatives...and certainly NOT our leaders!!!

These organizations subvert the constitution. Study Ezra T. Benson for further understanding.

Red pill is correct. 100%

D&C 134

5) We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgements are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time , however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

We are not and never have been under the thumb of the UN or any of its appendages (which are many).

God holds men accountable for their acts in both making and administering laws for the good and safety of society.
[/quote]

And for those outside America, they follow their local governments.

[John Tavner]

In order to receive forgiveness you too must forgive regardless of whether or not they sought your forgiveness. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

A better question: Why on earth do you want to hold onto unforgiveness towards others for the rest of your life. You are creating a hell for yourself.

Your first sentence directly contradicts Christ's words. Yes, I can forgive the FP for the shenanigans they've pulled. I can forgive someone for killing my child or any other type of sin, but what we are talking about in Luke is also part of that process of forgiveness. Your line of thinking is what has caused a lot of heartache within the church. "Forgive and forget" is the oft repeated mantra.

They are not contradicting CHrists words I quoted Christ like 4 times saying exactly what I said.. You have unforgiveness in your heart because you don't want to forgive becuase you would rather hold onto anger or because you are afraid whether it is of abuse, of being hurt, or of something else, it doesn't matter, it is there. It is a lot easier to hold onto those emotions. Life is a lot better when you learn to let go, though. It is a lot better when you learn to let Christ live in your life and bear your cross rather than constantly trying to force everyone else onto the cross. I don't have to let people abuse me to let go, but I can put myself in their shoes. It is actually a bit heartbreaking because peoples hearts really are waxing cold because they are using human justification to live their life rather than fully submitting to the will of the Father. What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? Let me put that in bold What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? To truly bear it? Do you think it is so we don't have to become like Him? Was He the most perfect example so we could just look and say "yeah.. but not me?"Most individuals I find who believe as you do have not fully received Christ's forgiveness in their life. Sure, they have felt forgiven, but thye haven't lived forgiven and htere is a difference. They haven't had to rely or rather haven't reached a point in which they submitted ot such an extend that they received the mercy He has offered and felt the immense change in their life, which shows just how merciful God is their life is still the old life. To where all they can do is walk daily in gratitude for His mercy. The tragedy is that the church today talks about stuff but doesn't understand it including forgiveness. Your approach actually leads to living a life of hell it is a telestial way of living. Daily anger and frustration become a part of your life, the peace of Christ doesn't fill it. Indeed the only peace people generally feel when living this life is the peace of "self-righteousnss" they think because they know they are better and therefore more righteous. They pray and when they pray they feel really good about their beliefs and think all others are fools and lost and they are the only ones found. Yet inside they constantly argue and fight and hate and at the end of the day don't look any more like Christ than any other person who claims to be a Christian. Part of this comes and ill placed zeal for truth written in word rather than in relationship with God, they seek after words that justify their own thinking rather than turning to God and having Him change their mind, which is true repentance. Anyone who thinks they don't have to forgive unless someone else asks for it will be in for a rude awakening when you come before the Lord and realize all the times you hurt people and did not seek forgiveness, You will judge yourself by yourself and live in your own personal hell you will be judged by how you judge "they didn't ask, so they shouldn't get" The Lord looks at you "You didn't ask, so you shouldn't receive" "Oh but Lord, I didn't know" "Oh but you did, you just justified yourself" - it is why half of the world's hearts are failing them. IT is why there is such hate and anger. There are few Christians and a lot of accusers. THere are a lot of people running around looking at hte mote in their brothers or their enemies eye, but ignoring hte beam in their own. As Alma stated

Finally, my thinking has not caused any heartache. Heartache comes from not actually forgiving but saying you have. It comes from not doing things courageously, but doing it because you are brow beat into it or "guilted" into doing something someone else percieves as good. It come from manipulation and not from standing on "The Rock." The truth will set you free and Freedom is being able to take the hit because you love hte other person enough that you know thye aren't thinking right and their thinking and view is wrong, but you have hope for them. Freedom is willingly carrying our cross and denying ourselves "If any come unto me first they must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow me." We are all a bunch of hypocrites playing at self-righteousness and I include myself in that and the cleansing that GOd will do to all, including those who have been born again will be glorious, for all of us err even the most humble followers of Christ.

Here are Alma's words: 17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

The joy behind all of this is that God IS merciful and He will see us as if we never sinned if we repent and change our minds. His Hand is held out all the day long, beckoning calling, so ready to clothe us in His righteousness if we learn to believe but hte reality is that we are a faithless and perverse (twisted thinking) generation, just like the Jews of Old. Thank God for His mercy.

IMO your view of the full process of forgiveness and repentance is a bit myopic. Yes, I agree with some of what you say, but I in no way see my viewpoint as "living a life of hell." I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness.

Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?

Sometimes we don't know we are in hell until we are out of it. We don't often understand the weight that anger, unforgiveness and frustration and hate and annoyance and even judgment etc... have upon us until the burden is fully removed. It is like removing invisible chains you have worn your whole life and never knew they could be removed and iddn't even know they were there but after the burden is gone. Also THe peace that is brought to us afterwards is not of this world and really offers something that can't be explained unless it is experienced. When your eyes are opened and you really see that so many people are struggling, and mercy comes forth. As THe Lord stated in Matt 9:12 "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and in Hosea 6 " 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. and Paul taught in Romans: 9 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness." So you are saying by not forgiving unless they ask you have a more complete form of forgiveness?

"Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?" A better question, can Christ forgive without a repentant heart? If Jesus prays for something will He receive it? "God forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) Did God forgive them, or was Jesus' prayer in vain? What does repentance mean? It appears that you keep thinking it is saying "I'm sorry" it may be a part of that from time to time, but Repentance at its base is not asking forgiveness, it is turning towards God and having a change of mind "If you draw nigh unto Me, I will draw night unto you." Furthermore, It doesn't matter what we think. John teaches us that "if anyone confesses their sins, God is faithful and just in forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." Have you ever been cleansed of all your sin? Have you experienced that Freedom? Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no idea what confession the other person made. Is it your job to judge the sinner? Do you know the thoughts and intents of other's hearts? Do you know the thoughts and intents of those who claim to be the 12? Did Christ not heal and forgive many who were incapable of asking forgiveness? Did Christ not tell us to "bear our cross?" Did Jesus suffer in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross in vain? What about those who have no law? Must they confess their, what we would call "sins" to be forgiven? What happens if you forget to ask forgiveness for a sin you committed? Are you now condemned to hell because you did not ask forgiveness of the person you may have offended? Waht if that person didn't tell you they were offended? Do you not see how your words are going to condemn you, how your judgment will lead to death? If a person forgets to ask forgiveness of you, but changes their mind and has turned towards God, Do you still think that it is "ok" for you not to forgive them - especially when Christ has redeemed them and the Holy Spriit fell upon them and they were born again? Are they not "little children " in the Lord again, innocent? Is you judgement going to influence their walk with Christ when their hearts are so tender... all because you feel "justified" in withholding your forgiveness?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Your first sentence directly contradicts Christ's words. Yes, I can forgive the FP for the shenanigans they've pulled. I can forgive someone for killing my child or any other type of sin, but what we are talking about in Luke is also part of that process of forgiveness. Your line of thinking is what has caused a lot of heartache within the church. "Forgive and forget" is the oft repeated mantra.

They are not contradicting CHrists words I quoted Christ like 4 times saying exactly what I said.. You have unforgiveness in your heart because you don't want to forgive becuase you would rather hold onto anger or because you are afraid whether it is of abuse, of being hurt, or of something else, it doesn't matter, it is there. It is a lot easier to hold onto those emotions. Life is a lot better when you learn to let go, though. It is a lot better when you learn to let Christ live in your life and bear your cross rather than constantly trying to force everyone else onto the cross. I don't have to let people abuse me to let go, but I can put myself in their shoes. It is actually a bit heartbreaking because peoples hearts really are waxing cold because they are using human justification to live their life rather than fully submitting to the will of the Father. What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? Let me put that in bold What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? To truly bear it? Do you think it is so we don't have to become like Him? Was He the most perfect example so we could just look and say "yeah.. but not me?"Most individuals I find who believe as you do have not fully received Christ's forgiveness in their life. Sure, they have felt forgiven, but thye haven't lived forgiven and htere is a difference. They haven't had to rely or rather haven't reached a point in which they submitted ot such an extend that they received the mercy He has offered and felt the immense change in their life, which shows just how merciful God is their life is still the old life. To where all they can do is walk daily in gratitude for His mercy. The tragedy is that the church today talks about stuff but doesn't understand it including forgiveness. Your approach actually leads to living a life of hell it is a telestial way of living. Daily anger and frustration become a part of your life, the peace of Christ doesn't fill it. Indeed the only peace people generally feel when living this life is the peace of "self-righteousnss" they think because they know they are better and therefore more righteous. They pray and when they pray they feel really good about their beliefs and think all others are fools and lost and they are the only ones found. Yet inside they constantly argue and fight and hate and at the end of the day don't look any more like Christ than any other person who claims to be a Christian. Part of this comes and ill placed zeal for truth written in word rather than in relationship with God, they seek after words that justify their own thinking rather than turning to God and having Him change their mind, which is true repentance. Anyone who thinks they don't have to forgive unless someone else asks for it will be in for a rude awakening when you come before the Lord and realize all the times you hurt people and did not seek forgiveness, You will judge yourself by yourself and live in your own personal hell you will be judged by how you judge "they didn't ask, so they shouldn't get" The Lord looks at you "You didn't ask, so you shouldn't receive" "Oh but Lord, I didn't know" "Oh but you did, you just justified yourself" - it is why half of the world's hearts are failing them. IT is why there is such hate and anger. There are few Christians and a lot of accusers. THere are a lot of people running around looking at hte mote in their brothers or their enemies eye, but ignoring hte beam in their own. As Alma stated

Finally, my thinking has not caused any heartache. Heartache comes from not actually forgiving but saying you have. It comes from not doing things courageously, but doing it because you are brow beat into it or "guilted" into doing something someone else percieves as good. It come from manipulation and not from standing on "The Rock." The truth will set you free and Freedom is being able to take the hit because you love hte other person enough that you know thye aren't thinking right and their thinking and view is wrong, but you have hope for them. Freedom is willingly carrying our cross and denying ourselves "If any come unto me first they must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow me." We are all a bunch of hypocrites playing at self-righteousness and I include myself in that and the cleansing that GOd will do to all, including those who have been born again will be glorious, for all of us err even the most humble followers of Christ.

Here are Alma's words: 17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

The joy behind all of this is that God IS merciful and He will see us as if we never sinned if we repent and change our minds. His Hand is held out all the day long, beckoning calling, so ready to clothe us in His righteousness if we learn to believe but hte reality is that we are a faithless and perverse (twisted thinking) generation, just like the Jews of Old. Thank God for His mercy.

IMO your view of the full process of forgiveness and repentance is a bit myopic. Yes, I agree with some of what you say, but I in no way see my viewpoint as "living a life of hell." I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness.

Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?

Sometimes we don't know we are in hell until we are out of it. We don't often understand the weight that anger, unforgiveness and frustration and hate and annoyance and even judgment etc... have upon us until the burden is fully removed. It is like removing invisible chains you have worn your whole life and never knew they could be removed and iddn't even know they were there but after the burden is gone. Also THe peace that is brought to us afterwards is not of this world and really offers something that can't be explained unless it is experienced. When your eyes are opened and you really see that so many people are struggling, and mercy comes forth. As THe Lord stated in Matt 9:12 "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and in Hosea 6 " 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. and Paul taught in Romans: 9 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness." So you are saying by not forgiving unless they ask you have a more complete form of forgiveness?

"Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?" A better question, can Christ forgive without a repentant heart? If Jesus prays for something will He receive it? "God forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) Did God forgive them, or was Jesus' prayer in vain? What does repentance mean? It appears that you keep thinking it is saying "I'm sorry" it may be a part of that from time to time, but Repentance at its base is not asking forgiveness, it is turning towards God and having a change of mind "If you draw nigh unto Me, I will draw night unto you." Furthermore, It doesn't matter what we think. John teaches us that "if anyone confesses their sins, God is faithful and just in forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." Have you ever been cleansed of all your sin? Have you experienced that Freedom? Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no idea what confession the other person made. Is it your job to judge the sinner? Do you know the thoughts and intents of other's hearts? Do you know the thoughts and intents of those who claim to be the 12? Did Christ not heal and forgive many who were incapable of asking forgiveness? Did Christ not tell us to "bear our cross?" Did Jesus suffer in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross in vain? What about those who have no law? Must they confess their, what we would call "sins" to be forgiven? What happens if you forget to ask forgiveness for a sin you committed? Are you now condemned to hell because you did not ask forgiveness of the person you may have offended? Waht if that person didn't tell you they were offended? Do you not see how your words are going to condemn you, how your judgment will lead to death? If a person forgets to ask forgiveness of you, but changes their mind and has turned towards God, Do you still think that it is "ok" for you not to forgive them - especially when Christ has redeemed them and the Holy Spriit fell upon them and they were born again? Are they not "little children " in the Lord again, innocent? Is you judgement going to influence their walk with Christ when their hearts are so tender... all because you feel "justified" in withholding your forgiveness?

So no answer to my question...

[John Tavner]

They are not contradicting CHrists words I quoted Christ like 4 times saying exactly what I said.. You have unforgiveness in your heart because you don't want to forgive becuase you would rather hold onto anger or because you are afraid whether it is of abuse, of being hurt, or of something else, it doesn't matter, it is there. It is a lot easier to hold onto those emotions. Life is a lot better when you learn to let go, though. It is a lot better when you learn to let Christ live in your life and bear your cross rather than constantly trying to force everyone else onto the cross. I don't have to let people abuse me to let go, but I can put myself in their shoes. It is actually a bit heartbreaking because peoples hearts really are waxing cold because they are using human justification to live their life rather than fully submitting to the will of the Father. What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? Let me put that in bold What do you think it means to bear the name of Christ? To truly bear it? Do you think it is so we don't have to become like Him? Was He the most perfect example so we could just look and say "yeah.. but not me?"Most individuals I find who believe as you do have not fully received Christ's forgiveness in their life. Sure, they have felt forgiven, but thye haven't lived forgiven and htere is a difference. They haven't had to rely or rather haven't reached a point in which they submitted ot such an extend that they received the mercy He has offered and felt the immense change in their life, which shows just how merciful God is their life is still the old life. To where all they can do is walk daily in gratitude for His mercy. The tragedy is that the church today talks about stuff but doesn't understand it including forgiveness. Your approach actually leads to living a life of hell it is a telestial way of living. Daily anger and frustration become a part of your life, the peace of Christ doesn't fill it. Indeed the only peace people generally feel when living this life is the peace of "self-righteousnss" they think because they know they are better and therefore more righteous. They pray and when they pray they feel really good about their beliefs and think all others are fools and lost and they are the only ones found. Yet inside they constantly argue and fight and hate and at the end of the day don't look any more like Christ than any other person who claims to be a Christian. Part of this comes and ill placed zeal for truth written in word rather than in relationship with God, they seek after words that justify their own thinking rather than turning to God and having Him change their mind, which is true repentance. Anyone who thinks they don't have to forgive unless someone else asks for it will be in for a rude awakening when you come before the Lord and realize all the times you hurt people and did not seek forgiveness, You will judge yourself by yourself and live in your own personal hell you will be judged by how you judge "they didn't ask, so they shouldn't get" The Lord looks at you "You didn't ask, so you shouldn't receive" "Oh but Lord, I didn't know" "Oh but you did, you just justified yourself" - it is why half of the world's hearts are failing them. IT is why there is such hate and anger. There are few Christians and a lot of accusers. THere are a lot of people running around looking at hte mote in their brothers or their enemies eye, but ignoring hte beam in their own. As Alma stated

Finally, my thinking has not caused any heartache. Heartache comes from not actually forgiving but saying you have. It comes from not doing things courageously, but doing it because you are brow beat into it or "guilted" into doing something someone else percieves as good. It come from manipulation and not from standing on "The Rock." The truth will set you free and Freedom is being able to take the hit because you love hte other person enough that you know thye aren't thinking right and their thinking and view is wrong, but you have hope for them. Freedom is willingly carrying our cross and denying ourselves "If any come unto me first they must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow me." We are all a bunch of hypocrites playing at self-righteousness and I include myself in that and the cleansing that GOd will do to all, including those who have been born again will be glorious, for all of us err even the most humble followers of Christ.

Here are Alma's words: 17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

The joy behind all of this is that God IS merciful and He will see us as if we never sinned if we repent and change our minds. His Hand is held out all the day long, beckoning calling, so ready to clothe us in His righteousness if we learn to believe but hte reality is that we are a faithless and perverse (twisted thinking) generation, just like the Jews of Old. Thank God for His mercy.

IMO your view of the full process of forgiveness and repentance is a bit myopic. Yes, I agree with some of what you say, but I in no way see my viewpoint as "living a life of hell." I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness.

Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?

Sometimes we don't know we are in hell until we are out of it. We don't often understand the weight that anger, unforgiveness and frustration and hate and annoyance and even judgment etc... have upon us until the burden is fully removed. It is like removing invisible chains you have worn your whole life and never knew they could be removed and iddn't even know they were there but after the burden is gone. Also THe peace that is brought to us afterwards is not of this world and really offers something that can't be explained unless it is experienced. When your eyes are opened and you really see that so many people are struggling, and mercy comes forth. As THe Lord stated in Matt 9:12 "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and in Hosea 6 " 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. and Paul taught in Romans: 9 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness." So you are saying by not forgiving unless they ask you have a more complete form of forgiveness?

"Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?" A better question, can Christ forgive without a repentant heart? If Jesus prays for something will He receive it? "God forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) Did God forgive them, or was Jesus' prayer in vain? What does repentance mean? It appears that you keep thinking it is saying "I'm sorry" it may be a part of that from time to time, but Repentance at its base is not asking forgiveness, it is turning towards God and having a change of mind "If you draw nigh unto Me, I will draw night unto you." Furthermore, It doesn't matter what we think. John teaches us that "if anyone confesses their sins, God is faithful and just in forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." Have you ever been cleansed of all your sin? Have you experienced that Freedom? Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no idea what confession the other person made. Is it your job to judge the sinner? Do you know the thoughts and intents of other's hearts? Do you know the thoughts and intents of those who claim to be the 12? Did Christ not heal and forgive many who were incapable of asking forgiveness? Did Christ not tell us to "bear our cross?" Did Jesus suffer in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross in vain? What about those who have no law? Must they confess their, what we would call "sins" to be forgiven? What happens if you forget to ask forgiveness for a sin you committed? Are you now condemned to hell because you did not ask forgiveness of the person you may have offended? Waht if that person didn't tell you they were offended? Do you not see how your words are going to condemn you, how your judgment will lead to death? If a person forgets to ask forgiveness of you, but changes their mind and has turned towards God, Do you still think that it is "ok" for you not to forgive them - especially when Christ has redeemed them and the Holy Spriit fell upon them and they were born again? Are they not "little children " in the Lord again, innocent? Is you judgement going to influence their walk with Christ when their hearts are so tender... all because you feel "justified" in withholding your forgiveness?

So no answer to my question...

YOu didn't answer any of mine but I addressed your question you just didn't like the answer. But Here is perhaps the answer you are looking for or at least ought to be

D&C 64: 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

[Reluctant Watchman]

IMO your view of the full process of forgiveness and repentance is a bit myopic. Yes, I agree with some of what you say, but I in no way see my viewpoint as "living a life of hell." I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness.

Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?

Sometimes we don't know we are in hell until we are out of it. We don't often understand the weight that anger, unforgiveness and frustration and hate and annoyance and even judgment etc... have upon us until the burden is fully removed. It is like removing invisible chains you have worn your whole life and never knew they could be removed and iddn't even know they were there but after the burden is gone. Also THe peace that is brought to us afterwards is not of this world and really offers something that can't be explained unless it is experienced. When your eyes are opened and you really see that so many people are struggling, and mercy comes forth. As THe Lord stated in Matt 9:12 "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and in Hosea 6 " 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. and Paul taught in Romans: 9 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness." So you are saying by not forgiving unless they ask you have a more complete form of forgiveness?

"Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?" A better question, can Christ forgive without a repentant heart? If Jesus prays for something will He receive it? "God forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) Did God forgive them, or was Jesus' prayer in vain? What does repentance mean? It appears that you keep thinking it is saying "I'm sorry" it may be a part of that from time to time, but Repentance at its base is not asking forgiveness, it is turning towards God and having a change of mind "If you draw nigh unto Me, I will draw night unto you." Furthermore, It doesn't matter what we think. John teaches us that "if anyone confesses their sins, God is faithful and just in forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." Have you ever been cleansed of all your sin? Have you experienced that Freedom? Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no idea what confession the other person made. Is it your job to judge the sinner? Do you know the thoughts and intents of other's hearts? Do you know the thoughts and intents of those who claim to be the 12? Did Christ not heal and forgive many who were incapable of asking forgiveness? Did Christ not tell us to "bear our cross?" Did Jesus suffer in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross in vain? What about those who have no law? Must they confess their, what we would call "sins" to be forgiven? What happens if you forget to ask forgiveness for a sin you committed? Are you now condemned to hell because you did not ask forgiveness of the person you may have offended? Waht if that person didn't tell you they were offended? Do you not see how your words are going to condemn you, how your judgment will lead to death? If a person forgets to ask forgiveness of you, but changes their mind and has turned towards God, Do you still think that it is "ok" for you not to forgive them - especially when Christ has redeemed them and the Holy Spriit fell upon them and they were born again? Are they not "little children " in the Lord again, innocent? Is you judgement going to influence their walk with Christ when their hearts are so tender... all because you feel "justified" in withholding your forgiveness?

So no answer to my question...

YOu didn't answer any of mine but I addressed your question you just didn't like the answer. But Here is perhaps the answer you are looking for or at least ought to be D&C 64: 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Still doesn't answer my question.

[Being There]

It is a foundational aspect of LDS theology.

Not true.

I know it gives you seething anger that more people are waking up to the great LDS leadership lie, keeping the Book of Mormon and tossing the trash so try and look at some comforting words from prophet, seer and revelator Nelson and have a good night

Seething anger?

Pretty sure it's the backbiters, false accusers and mockers who are the ones who are seething with anger.

As for me, I think it's a real tragedy that there are so many bitter angery apostates who hate the Lord's church and aren't content to just leave, but instead want to lead others down the same forbidden paths they are wandering on.

I feel a certain obligation as a true believer to try and prevent the apostates from the destroying the testimonies of others and leading them down to hell.

The hatred in their posts is so clear that they make them selves look bad, im not worried about testimonies being turned because of it. What Im most concerned about is their continual whining over a voluntary religion that does not force them to do anything. Leaving a religion is such a freeing experience. I only had to go inactive to feel a burden release from the religious way of living, it didnt take long for the spirit to teach me that the burdens are there for a reason and I need to stick it out/ endure to the end.

Its not healthy to live with anger and hatred in ones heart and speaking ill will about any religion if its LDS, Buddhist or Islam is a definite sign of dark energy.

hatred ?
lol.
bring to light truth - and exposing the leaders of the church - (like Isaiah does)
for what they really are - The Drunkards of Ephraim, and dumb watchdogs - IS NOT hatred;
nor does it make those that are serving the Lord by doing so - look bad.



and it's not what endure to the end means,
so you go right ahead - and sink with the boat.

[John Tavner]

Sometimes we don't know we are in hell until we are out of it. We don't often understand the weight that anger, unforgiveness and frustration and hate and annoyance and even judgment etc... have upon us until the burden is fully removed. It is like removing invisible chains you have worn your whole life and never knew they could be removed and iddn't even know they were there but after the burden is gone. Also THe peace that is brought to us afterwards is not of this world and really offers something that can't be explained unless it is experienced. When your eyes are opened and you really see that so many people are struggling, and mercy comes forth. As THe Lord stated in Matt 9:12 "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and in Hosea 6 " 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. and Paul taught in Romans: 9 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"I see it as a more complete form of forgiveness." So you are saying by not forgiving unless they ask you have a more complete form of forgiveness?

"Question, can sin be forgiven without a repentant heart on the part of the sinner?" A better question, can Christ forgive without a repentant heart? If Jesus prays for something will He receive it? "God forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34) Did God forgive them, or was Jesus' prayer in vain? What does repentance mean? It appears that you keep thinking it is saying "I'm sorry" it may be a part of that from time to time, but Repentance at its base is not asking forgiveness, it is turning towards God and having a change of mind "If you draw nigh unto Me, I will draw night unto you." Furthermore, It doesn't matter what we think. John teaches us that "if anyone confesses their sins, God is faithful and just in forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." Have you ever been cleansed of all your sin? Have you experienced that Freedom? Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no idea what confession the other person made. Is it your job to judge the sinner? Do you know the thoughts and intents of other's hearts? Do you know the thoughts and intents of those who claim to be the 12? Did Christ not heal and forgive many who were incapable of asking forgiveness? Did Christ not tell us to "bear our cross?" Did Jesus suffer in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross in vain? What about those who have no law? Must they confess their, what we would call "sins" to be forgiven? What happens if you forget to ask forgiveness for a sin you committed? Are you now condemned to hell because you did not ask forgiveness of the person you may have offended? Waht if that person didn't tell you they were offended? Do you not see how your words are going to condemn you, how your judgment will lead to death? If a person forgets to ask forgiveness of you, but changes their mind and has turned towards God, Do you still think that it is "ok" for you not to forgive them - especially when Christ has redeemed them and the Holy Spriit fell upon them and they were born again? Are they not "little children " in the Lord again, innocent? Is you judgement going to influence their walk with Christ when their hearts are so tender... all because you feel "justified" in withholding your forgiveness?

So no answer to my question...

YOu didn't answer any of mine but I addressed your question you just didn't like the answer. But Here is perhaps the answer you are looking for or at least ought to be D&C 64: 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Still doesn't answer my question.

Then you didn't read the answer.

[Being There]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Agree

A mulligan or two is required when analyzing any human behavior. We all make mistakes, usually because we lack education or information...

But...when the entire operation of Q15 is now joined at the hip with agenda 2030, the UN and progressive leftist ideology...

...and offering NO retractions, apologies or remorse.

....you can't ALLOW ANY MORE MULLIGANS!!!

It's time to call a spade a spade. The professional apologists on the forum have been spitting into the wind for some time now...calling their snot covered bodies...a safe and effective Godsent rain.

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

Look at it this way. These heads of government and ruling groups are supported by the people and the church has to work with people where they are at. If we the people would bring down those ruling organizations then the church would no longer be subject to them. So, it isn't the church's fault for being subject to such institutions. The church serves the people and we the people have set these kingdoms up.

Therefore the kingdom of God must grow alongside the kingdom of babylon. This is for purpose of function. Not for purpose of belief.

Being subject to a king isn't the same as believing in said king. And the day will come when the rightful king is on the earth and reigns with power. But it's up for us, the people, to make space for that to happen by obeying Jesus when He taught us to obey God and only serve Him.

In other words, if the church has press conferences so as to look like they are inline with the kings of babylon, I would take it with a grain of salt. We say we will be subject to these guys the same way Jesus said agree with your enemy so you don't go to jail.

The missionary and temple and even church schools have closed for all intents and purposes if one has to obey babylon to partake in it. This means we are ever so close to the appearance of the Kingdom of God. But don't expect the church to fight against these kingdoms. They are going to publically go along with it. But following the Spirit one will know that all these things are being called to a halt. We see this by the signs of the times, something the church cannot make a public ordeal or else they would appear to be in a fight with babylon, a fight they will lose because God's kingdom is not yet here. But when one has to choose between babylon and God just to go to school, just to be a missionary, then we know we are near the end. Like the children of Israel against the Red Sea. We have that pillar of fire which is the power of discernment to protect us for a short while. We have to wait for God to provide away of escape.

I assume that soon, heavy persecution will come to all who don't bow to the beast. It's going to get to the point where our bank accounts are frozen and we all become homeless. At which point at least we can be happy there will be no more property tax.

So it is, gathering at church property could save our lives and allow us to begin communities anew in the days ahead. Huh, D&C45 says just that.

lol.
and I thought I had heard everything.
What a bunch of BS.
You twist everything and adjust it, to fit - with your lame excuses - trying to justify
why the church needs to join satan and follow him -
along with all the other World leaders. ( which Nelson is and has )
SMH

[Reluctant Watchman]

So no answer to my question...

YOu didn't answer any of mine but I addressed your question you just didn't like the answer. But Here is perhaps the answer you are looking for or at least ought to be D&C 64: 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Still doesn't answer my question.

Then you didn't read the answer.

So your answer is "yes" sins can be forgiven without repentance on the part of the sinner.

A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

[Original_Intent]

Life is a Rorschach test, and what we see says more about you than about what you are seeing.

While I believe there is much interpretation, that still doesn't make all interpretations correct.

Everybody thinks their interpretation is the correct one.

I don't see it that way. I have many questions that are not answered. I hold many "interpretations" as "what if's" and "possibly", but don't take a hard stance.

What this line of thinking leads to is everybody having their own "truth." Which reverts us right back to where Joseph found himself with the revivals of his day. The restoration was quite clear on a good many things. Sure, we can each find truth in many areas of our lives, and find very distinct directions, but there are, IMO, some very set "eternal truths" that do not vacillate with the whims of individuals.

1) You are in the extreme minority then.
2) All I meant was in general the OP and others always posting garbage about the 15 PSRs - I get the discontent, but if you practically wake up wondering what bad thing you are going to find out about someone, you're gonna find it. Same if you wake up a TBM and all you can see is the good. Neither is correct, as you say it is interpretation, and both think they are right and the other side is either stupid or evil.

That was all I meant by the rorschach test - it says more about what is going on in your head than it does about the truth, most often.

[John Tavner]

While I believe there is much interpretation, that still doesn't make all interpretations correct.

Everybody thinks their interpretation is the correct one.

I don't see it that way. I have many questions that are not answered. I hold many "interpretations" as "what if's" and "possibly", but don't take a hard stance.

What this line of thinking leads to is everybody having their own "truth." Which reverts us right back to where Joseph found himself with the revivals of his day. The restoration was quite clear on a good many things. Sure, we can each find truth in many areas of our lives, and find very distinct directions, but there are, IMO, some very set "eternal truths" that do not vacillate with the whims of individuals.

1) You are in the extreme minority then.
2) All I meant was in general the OP and others always posting garbage about the 15 PSRs - I get the discontent, but if you practically wake up wondering what bad thing you are going to find out about someone, you're gonna find it. Same if you wake up a TBM and all you can see is the good. Neither is correct, as you say it is interpretation, and both think they are right and the other side is either stupid or evil.

That was all I meant by the rorschach test - it says more about what is going on in your head than it does about the truth, most often.

I think It works the same way in conversations and our daily interactions with others too. It leads to often perceiving everything the other person is doing as "wrong." If we aren't careful we will see anyone who disagrees with us as an enemy and our lives start playing out as if we are living a war we are seeing the beginning of the prophecies that mother will fight against daugher and son against father, brother against brother etc..

[EvanLM]

Nope. He has never claimed this.

Just curious, what does RMN mean when he says that, "I am the Lord's prophet"? At the very least he is putting himself in the ball park, even in the same line-up with those clean-up hitters like Moses and Joseph.

It means nothing to my Catholic friends and anyone else that is non-mormon. It should mean nothing to anyone who is not in the boat. If someone is in the boat and still whining like the rest of the complainers then find another "self proclaimed" prophets boat to sail in.

I guess you're referring to the other 99.98% of the earth's population. The so called restoration is a complete fail. God's plan failed. Or perhaps it isn't God's plan...

God's plan has not failed . . . so silly . . the Lord spoke through Isaiah and John . . .Isaiah claims that the watchman are replaced . .. hasn't happened yet . . Iasiah and John claim that there will be a remnant left that will gather House of Israel and build Zion . . .hasn't happened yet . . . mormons and apostate mormons are the MOST arrogant people I have ever come across . . . possibly more arrogant than Pelosi and Schumer (Boris and Natasha, so to speak) . . . taht's why this free speech on this forum is soooooo good . . . i

it does appear that apostate mormons are rather mad at the Lord and tend to speak for him . . discount not only the current prophet but also the past prophets . . . . hmmmmm .. . . the Lord's revelations and the plan for the last days has not been completed yet . . . and I don't really need to tell you that . . you already know . . maybe you're just tired of waiting on the Lord . . .

I like this thread cuz today I was thinking about how much I have been unable to accept the world as it is today . . . my iond knows the truth but my heart and whole self just won't come to grips with it . . I keep thinking things will go back to the 70s politics and economy . . with less killing and threats of killing . . . I jusat thought we wouldhave rumors of wars like the media telling us that some country was going to have an army come and shoot them or blow them up . . .

how could I have know that instead of that . . . a sick psychopath . . . Bill Gates . . would instead be threatening . . with a lot of other people . . to genocide this world . . does this follow under rumors of war . . .

I didn't know that our food supply would be damaged and ruined in a planned event by our own leaders . . . across the globe . . . oh, sorry to deviate . . btw subcomdante . .God is not JUST punishing USA . . he is punishing your country too . . . stop the supply of even baby formula . . . I just assumed that God would stop the rains or cause destruction from weather . . .

who would have guessed that the "seeding the clouds" experiment done by the military complex would be used against us . . the USA

it is something to deal with nature . . .or deterioration of assets and physical, natural things . . .or even to deal with animals . . .but to deal with the evil that is in the leaders of our nations, governments and states . . is very, very hard for me to really get a grip on . . .I know it in my mind . . but just can't . . .I have no words for this . . . oh, just can't embrace it enough to keep me on my knees . . . which is where is where I need to be night and day . . . I just haven't increased my dilligence. . . and need to . .

but the greatest blow is the carelessness and arrogance of our church . . mormon . . .leaders . . locally and general . . not all leaders. . but enough to be really scary . . . I have laughed so hard at all of the pictures here posted . . it has taken the edge off of a very serious problem . . .but . . reminds me that even Isaiah teased the prophets and fake prophets of his day . . .

I have also laughed at the memes of our gov leaders . . and the comments made by patriots . . .

just don't know how to fully embrace this whole mess and the fact that we are here fulfilling prophecy and are about to witness what the full wrath of God looks like . . . sorry to steal the thread . . but again . . what you are posting about RMN is true and the other 12 or how ever many there are . . . . also guilty with him . . . and members who do not up their game and instead wait on some revelation of guidance form this group is not gonna be at the feast . . .

Thank you Isaiah, Nephi, Jeremiah, Daniel, John, Matthew, and all the other prophets that tell me about what I ma living in . . . thank you Jesus for guiding these men to write scripture . . and preserving them for our day . . .

[Hogmeister]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I have tried to teach this principle of forgiveness this in church for years but it will just not go in. Where is justice and right if forgiveness requires nothing? That repentance is key to being offered forgivness. Why do you think God commands us to repent? So that he can forgive us of course. Likewise we are only commanded by God to forgive when the offender repents and ask for forgiveness because that is what God does. Of course we ourselves may be blessed if we forgive or bear patiently the unrepentant but we are not under the same obligation to forgive.

"7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

[I Dont Know...]

...James 5 recites how ELIAS (Elijah) was an ordinary man who prayed to God. This ordinary man became one of the greatest of prophets.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

...Was Elijah a true prophet?...there is plenty of evidence to pronounce this to be true...

...In his day he was feared greatly. Why?...because he lived to the Lord. Nothing wavering.

...When king Ahab died his unrighteous son Ahaziah took charge over Israel. You can imagine how pleased the Lord was when Ahaziah fell sick and sent his messenger to enquire of Baalzebub if he would recover...in fact the Lord sent Elijah to intercept the messenger of the sick king...turned the messenger back and told him to tell the king he would die...

...when the messenger of the king returned, the king asked who was this man...Elijah the Tishbite...

...the king then sent his captain and 50 men to tell Elijah to come down from his mountain and present himself to the king...Elijah called on fire to rain down from heaven. The captain and his 50 men were consumed by fire...

...again the king sent another captain with his 50...same result.

a third time the king sent a captain with his 50...this time the captain knelt before the man of God and pleaded for his own life and the life of his 50 men...the Angel of Lord told Elijah to go with this man and the Lord would protect him...Elijah told the king he would die because he relied upon Baalzebub and the Lord had been removed from Israel...

...not to mention the 450 priests of Baal who tried to set fire to an alter upon which lay a bullock of their own choosing...

...Elijah appeared to have at least some semblance of humour when after many hours of praying to Baal the priests could not get the fire started...Elijah told them their God may be on holiday...or at work...or asleep...

As we know Elijah caused fire to rain down from heaven and consume his offering.

...Elijah was not fearful of the praise of men...he feared God...and because he feared God...his word became Gods word...kings feared him...brave men fell before him...

...Elijah saw corruption and called it out...He did not shirk his responsibility...Elijah was known to have " troubled " Israel for the Lords sake...this because of the great evil that existed in Israel...

...is there a modern day parallel of great evil today?...Many would say no...even those who agree that there is evil afoot...how many of these are prepared to call out evil for the Lords sake?...in the words of a well known kiwi rap artist..." not many, if any..." who ironically goes by the name " Scribe ".

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

...Elijah saw the corruption of his people and caused the rain to cease for 3 and a half years...after this time his heart softened because he saw the hardship of his people...he then prayed for the rain to fall and so it was...rain and fire...death...all responded to the command of Elijah...

...Isaiah 60:12 - For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted...

in these last days the servants of the Lord shall " trouble " the nations by calling out hypocrisy and evil...these nations who do not turn back to their God shall perish...those that follow the Lords true servants will be required to give up every evil practice and ideology...

...how will we know if the Lord has accepted our covenant with Him?...

...I believe the Lord will speak to each individual and confirm his or her place at His side...the Holy Ghost confirms the truth of all things...this is how I believe the Lord is communicating to His Sons and Daughters as we speak...

...this includes how to identify true prophets...by their fruits...

[John Tavner]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I have tried to teach this principle of forgiveness this in church for years but it will just not go in. Where is justice and right if forgiveness requires nothing? That repentance is key to being offered forgivness. Why do you think God commands us to repent? So that he can forgive us of course. Likewise we are only commanded by God to forgive when the offender repents and ask for forgiveness because that is what God does. Of course we ourselves may be blessed if we forgive or bear patiently the unrepentant but we are not under the same obligation to forgive.

"7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

Repentance is a lot less about forgiveness and more about becoming like Him. Our view of repentance is so twisted taht we think it is only about forgiveness which leads us into being petulant little children who remain the same and think we are going to heaven without actually fulfilling our destiny. Also. CHrist clearly forgives multiple times without someone asking for it. I"m not saying that is the rule, but it happened. He forgives who He forgives, but unto us it is required that we forgive all people (D&C 64) Let me repeat that "WE ARE REQUIRED TO FORGIVE ALL MEN". We get so focused on forgiveness because often times we need to feel forgiven otherwise we live in the past and are unable to live as we should because our past defines us. Seriously it's like Nephi who lamented that people won't understand even though the word are given to them in great plainess. yet we want to still live like the natural man, refusing to take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

D&C 64:10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

[Reluctant Watchman]

JT, I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes, we need to forgive, but repentance is necessary on the part of the sinner. We're splitting hairs here really.

I agree that forgiveness can be had even though the offender doesn't repent. But like I've also said, the more whole and healing cycle of forgiveness is when there is both repentance and forgiveness.

[DJB]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

I see where you are coming from. I get. I disagree with many things the church does especially the endorsing of the jab. He spoke as a man not as a prophet. I got a strong response to the prayer I gave concerning following his counsel. It was a strong no, with an additional “His words are not my words, they are his own” when I knew all to well the jab is connected to the Luciferian agenda. I chose to follow God’s council over the prophets cause he didn’t speak as a prophet. I can’t even pin point where he does speak as a prophet, but regardless, he still holds the keys. I’m certain of that. My disappointment is not in whether you or anyone else denounces him, it’s the mocking attitude that is saddening. Mocking is a fruit of evil, not of the Gospel. I hope I am in good company here, with those who reach to obtain a Zion standing, which mocking has no place within.

I firmly believe that Saul and David is a type of the Last prophet and the Davidic Servant. David KNEW Saul was wrong on so many levels, and was aware of his failure to lead as the Lord would have him lead, only, David honoured Sauls place within the Kingdom, and allowed him a time to repent and get back on track. He did not and God removed him and put David in his stead…

That is how I view all this within the church today. I won’t blindly follow a prophet, but I will pray about his direction and counsel, and if the Lord nods his head, I will heed that counsel. I worship God not man..

I appreciate your point of view though. It’s just the mocking by some that’s disappointing

[John Tavner]

JT, I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes, we need to forgive, but repentance is necessary on the part of the sinner. We're splitting hairs here really.

I agree that forgiveness can be had even though the offender doesn't repent. But like I've also said, the more whole and healing cycle of forgiveness is when there is both repentance and forgiveness.

Maybe this is where there is confusion. My focus or commentary has been on those who might have been offended, I have not been focusing much on the one who gave offence. For the offended it is required to forgive regardless of someone asking. And I agree that in most cases asking forgiveness of the one you've offended helps the healing cycle as long as it is sincere, because most people have a hard time forgiving, but it also shows that the one who offended had a hard time forgiving in the first place. To be clear, I'm not against anyone asking forgiveness and I don't disagree that it will likely help. I'm against the idea that we as the ones who are offended are not required to forgive unless the offender asks for it. I believe confessing our sins is important and essential in our cases, but at the same time, I allow D&C 64 to play out "We are required to forgive all men and to "Let God judge between me and thee" and on my part, I sometimes wonder if even a higher level is asking forgiveness on their behalf (but htat is just my own thoughts), as far as whether He will forgive them or not - they may have acted in complete ignorance (not knowing hte law) or their heart meant good. I don't know. Judgement will come through the Lord and it will be righteous whether I think it is or not. - though, I agree seeking forgiveness from the one that has been offended will in most cases help most parties though that view might be strained if they begin to do it 70 times 7 times, but regardless of what they do we must learn to forgive and not determine our state of being based off of someone else's actions.