Russell "Golden Calf" Nelson

[Juliet]

I don't really have the right to criticize him. He tells people to do good, so at least he isn't getting up and leading people to commit evil. As to his private righteousness... We had Elder Renlund to our area last week. He spoke to us from Ezekial 33, and he spoke about if a man repents of his sins, they shall no more be mentioned to him.

I know how much that means to me, because I have had people use my past to hate me and I didn't like it one bit. Then the spirit convicted me if I am not guilty of thinking the same about Pres Nelson.

Maybe Pres Nelson isn't perfect. He even admits in his career his work resulted in the deaths of children and how badly he pleaded for forgiveness because of it. Contrasting it to looking at sin, because his career work was not a sin... But still a good metaphor... If he had past failures and mistakes forgiven by Jesus Christ in the process of becoming His prophet.... And I am sitting here focusing on his faults... well... that sure makes me look bad.

Now I have this understanding that Jesus Christ really can and does forgive sins. My past sins and failures, and if he does so for me then who am I to say but that He most likely does so for Pres. Nelson as well.

Even though the Holy Spirit itself has witnessed to me about the abominations in high places, I need to submit to the other truth the Holy Spirit witnesses of, that Jesus is mighty to save. And once a person is saved, their sins are not to be mentioned anymore.

Perhaps Pres. Nelson is going to continue to make a few adjustments to things. For example, and this is just a hypothetical guess, but perhaps things will continue to shift so people have a personal relationship with Jesus as per to their temple worthiness and not the organization in charge of such affairs. I don't know. But whatever changes may happen and have happened, it can cause one to question what is really going on. I know I have. I also know we have had a lot of straight up evil we have been warring with.

But I just seem to have this breakthrough that Jesus has a job. It's to make us stand in agreement, to make us whole, to at one ment us. And He is going to bring it to pass.

And those who back bite and accuse, whether the things they speak about are true or false, the act of back biting is surely a sin. Because in the zeal to expose evil, it becomes evil itself.

Even exposing evil causes pain and separation. But washing evil away with the righteousnes of Christ, and removing it so we can be clothed in righteousness brings atonement, healing, and removes the desire to sin. And then once the sins are gone, they are not even needed to be mentioned anymore. That's a zion I wouldn't mind living in.

[The Red Pill]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Agree

A mulligan or two is required when analyzing any human behavior. We all make mistakes, usually because we lack education or information...

But...when the entire operation of Q15 is now joined at the hip with agenda 2030, the UN and progressive leftist ideology...

...and offering NO retractions, apologies or remorse.

....you can't ALLOW ANY MORE MULLIGANS!!!

It's time to call a spade a spade. The professional apologists on the forum have been spitting into the wind for some time now...calling their snot covered bodies...a safe and effective Godsent rain.

[randyps]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Leaders urge us to serve missions too but its not for everyone and many choose not to go after much prayer and fasting, doesnt mean that they know better then the prophet, just that they know whats better for themselves.
Missionaries have died while in the mission field, my classmate died while in the provo MTC, he and his companion went hiking in the mountians on pday, he fell down a cliffside.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't really have the right to criticize him. He tells people to do good, so at least he isn't getting up and leading people to commit evil. As to his private righteousness... We had Elder Renlund to our area last week. He spoke to us from Ezekial 33, and he spoke about if a man repents of his sins, they shall no more be mentioned to him.

I know how much that means to me, because I have had people use my past to hate me and I didn't like it one bit. Then the spirit convicted me if I am not guilty of thinking the same about Pres Nelson.

Maybe Pres Nelson isn't perfect. He even admits in his career his work resulted in the deaths of children and how badly he pleaded for forgiveness because of it. Contrasting it to looking at sin, because his career work was not a sin... But still a good metaphor... If he had past failures and mistakes forgiven by Jesus Christ in the process of becoming His prophet.... And I am sitting here focusing on his faults... well... that sure makes me look bad.

Now I have this understanding that Jesus Christ really can and does forgive sins. My past sins and failures, and if he does so for me then who am I to say but that He most likely does so for Pres. Nelson as well.

Even though the Holy Spirit itself has witnessed to me about the abominations in high places, I need to submit to the other truth the Holy Spirit witnesses of, that Jesus is mighty to save. And once a person is saved, their sins are not to be mentioned anymore.

Perhaps Pres. Nelson is going to continue to make a few adjustments to things. For example, and this is just a hypothetical guess, but perhaps things will continue to shift so people have a personal relationship with Jesus as per to their temple worthiness and not the organization in charge of such affairs. I don't know. But whatever changes may happen and have happened, it can cause one to question what is really going on. I know I have. I also know we have had a lot of straight up evil we have been warring with.

But I just seem to have this breakthrough that Jesus has a job. It's to make us stand in agreement, to make us whole, to at one ment us. And He is going to bring it to pass.

And those who back bite and accuse, whether the things they speak about are true or false, the act of back biting is surely a sin. Because in the zeal to expose evil, it becomes evil itself.

Even exposing evil causes pain and separation. But washing evil away with the righteousnes of Christ, and removing it so we can be clothed in righteousness brings atonement, healing, and removes the desire to sin. And then once the sins are gone, they are not even needed to be mentioned anymore. That's a zion I wouldn't mind living in.

Paul taught that to forgive a sinner they must ask for repentance. These men in leadership positions have sinned against God by blaspheming His name. And, of course, Oaks has taught that the church never offers apologies.

Also, as I noted on another thread, it’s ok to call out false doctrine and practices, and those who perpetuate them. If you condemn us for calling out church leaders, then you’d call out most of the ancient prophets.

[The Red Pill]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Leaders urge us to serve missions too but its not for everyone and many choose not to go after much prayer and fasting, doesnt mean that they know better then the prophet, just that they know whats better for themselves.

I went on a mission....It DIDN'T increase my chances of DYING by 92%

Apples and oranges....try again!

[Juliet]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Agree

A mulligan or two is required when analyzing any human behavior. We all make mistakes, usually because we lack education or information...

But...when the entire operation of Q15 is now joined at the hip with agenda 2030, the UN and progressive leftist ideology...

...and offering NO retractions, apologies or remorse.

....you can't ALLOW ANY MORE MULLIGANS!!!

It's time to call a spade a spade. The professional apologists on the forum have been spitting into the wind for some time now...calling their snot covered bodies...a safe and effective Godsent rain.

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

Look at it this way. These heads of government and ruling groups are supported by the people and the church has to work with people where they are at. If we the people would bring down those ruling organizations then the church would no longer be subject to them. So, it isn't the church's fault for being subject to such institutions. The church serves the people and we the people have set these kingdoms up.

Therefore the kingdom of God must grow alongside the kingdom of babylon. This is for purpose of function. Not for purpose of belief.

Being subject to a king isn't the same as believing in said king. And the day will come when the rightful king is on the earth and reigns with power. But it's up for us, the people, to make space for that to happen by obeying Jesus when He taught us to obey God and only serve Him.

In other words, if the church has press conferences so as to look like they are inline with the kings of babylon, I would take it with a grain of salt. We say we will be subject to these guys the same way Jesus said agree with your enemy so you don't go to jail.

The missionary and temple and even church schools have closed for all intents and purposes if one has to obey babylon to partake in it. This means we are ever so close to the appearance of the Kingdom of God. But don't expect the church to fight against these kingdoms. They are going to publically go along with it. But following the Spirit one will know that all these things are being called to a halt. We see this by the signs of the times, something the church cannot make a public ordeal or else they would appear to be in a fight with babylon, a fight they will lose because God's kingdom is not yet here. But when one has to choose between babylon and God just to go to school, just to be a missionary, then we know we are near the end. Like the children of Israel against the Red Sea. We have that pillar of fire which is the power of discernment to protect us for a short while. We have to wait for God to provide away of escape.

I assume that soon, heavy persecution will come to all who don't bow to the beast. It's going to get to the point where our bank accounts are frozen and we all become homeless. At which point at least we can be happy there will be no more property tax.

So it is, gathering at church property could save our lives and allow us to begin communities anew in the days ahead. Huh, D&C45 says just that.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

Don't forget to include WT*F.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Leaders urge us to serve missions too but its not for everyone and many choose not to go after much prayer and fasting, doesnt mean that they know better then the prophet, just that they know whats better for themselves.
Missionaries have died while in the mission field, my classmate died while in the provo MTC, he and his companion went hiking in the mountians on pday, he fell down a cliffside.

I know of several missionaries who now have heart conditions because they got vaxxed. I'd say many, if not most, missionaries didn't want to do it but were asked by their leaders.

Then you have bullsh*t like this:
viewtopic.php?t=63246

[John Tavner]

I don't really have the right to criticize him. He tells people to do good, so at least he isn't getting up and leading people to commit evil. As to his private righteousness... We had Elder Renlund to our area last week. He spoke to us from Ezekial 33, and he spoke about if a man repents of his sins, they shall no more be mentioned to him.

I know how much that means to me, because I have had people use my past to hate me and I didn't like it one bit. Then the spirit convicted me if I am not guilty of thinking the same about Pres Nelson.

Maybe Pres Nelson isn't perfect. He even admits in his career his work resulted in the deaths of children and how badly he pleaded for forgiveness because of it. Contrasting it to looking at sin, because his career work was not a sin... But still a good metaphor... If he had past failures and mistakes forgiven by Jesus Christ in the process of becoming His prophet.... And I am sitting here focusing on his faults... well... that sure makes me look bad.

Now I have this understanding that Jesus Christ really can and does forgive sins. My past sins and failures, and if he does so for me then who am I to say but that He most likely does so for Pres. Nelson as well.

Even though the Holy Spirit itself has witnessed to me about the abominations in high places, I need to submit to the other truth the Holy Spirit witnesses of, that Jesus is mighty to save. And once a person is saved, their sins are not to be mentioned anymore.

Perhaps Pres. Nelson is going to continue to make a few adjustments to things. For example, and this is just a hypothetical guess, but perhaps things will continue to shift so people have a personal relationship with Jesus as per to their temple worthiness and not the organization in charge of such affairs. I don't know. But whatever changes may happen and have happened, it can cause one to question what is really going on. I know I have. I also know we have had a lot of straight up evil we have been warring with.

But I just seem to have this breakthrough that Jesus has a job. It's to make us stand in agreement, to make us whole, to at one ment us. And He is going to bring it to pass.

And those who back bite and accuse, whether the things they speak about are true or false, the act of back biting is surely a sin. Because in the zeal to expose evil, it becomes evil itself.

Even exposing evil causes pain and separation. But washing evil away with the righteousnes of Christ, and removing it so we can be clothed in righteousness brings atonement, healing, and removes the desire to sin. And then once the sins are gone, they are not even needed to be mentioned anymore. That's a zion I wouldn't mind living in.

Paul taught that to forgive a sinner they must ask for repentance. These men in leadership positions have sinned against God by blaspheming His name. And, of course, Oaks has taught that the church never offers apologies.

Also, as I noted on another thread, it’s ok to call out false doctrine and practices, and those who perpetuate them. If you condemn us for calling out church leaders, then you’d call out most of the ancient prophets.

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

[The Red Pill]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Agree

A mulligan or two is required when analyzing any human behavior. We all make mistakes, usually because we lack education or information...

But...when the entire operation of Q15 is now joined at the hip with agenda 2030, the UN and progressive leftist ideology...

...and offering NO retractions, apologies or remorse.

....you can't ALLOW ANY MORE MULLIGANS!!!

It's time to call a spade a spade. The professional apologists on the forum have been spitting into the wind for some time now...calling their snot covered bodies...a safe and effective Godsent rain.

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

Look at it this way. These heads of government and ruling groups are supported by the people and the church has to work with people where they are at. If we the people would bring down those ruling organizations then the church would no longer be subject to them. So, it isn't the church's fault for being subject to such institutions. The church serves the people and we the people have set these kingdoms up.

You have contorted the 12th beyond comprehension.

In the USA the Supreme law of the land is the constitution....PERIOD....END OF STORY!!!!

Furthur, obedience to leaders ONLY applies if THEY are following the constitution...the Supreme law of the land. All bets are off if they are not following.

The morons at the UN, WEF, WHO are NOT ELECTED by the people...they are NOT our representatives...and certainly NOT our leaders!!!

These organizations subvert the constitution. Study Ezra T. Benson for further understanding.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

[John Tavner]

I believe Russel M Nelson is the Lord’s prophet today. I believe he holds the keys to govern this little Telestial church as best as he knows how, until he hands the keys back at AOA. I will never get the poisoned jab. I think he makes mistakes as do all that have proceeded him (Monson’s Mall) I’ll sustain him as such, until the church is set in order again buy the Servant of the Lord. I get we need humour in life, but are you serving Christ by your attitude displayed here in mocking a child of God?
Zion individuals will leave the mocking alone, despite how they view that individual.

Think long and hard about that question… It matters to Christ!

I'm wondering how you can maintain the position that RMN is the Lord's prophet, and yet you'll never get the jab, when he clearly endorsed it and called it safe and effective and URGED you to get it.

1. You know better than the Lord's prophet.
2. It was only his opinion but he misused his authority to push it.
3. He's a nice old man but not a prophet.
4. He is the prophet, but the Lord doesn't care how many people died or suffered from the jab, let alone the tyrannical attacks on freedom, etc.

I've never prayed about ANYTHING in my life more than if I should get the vax. And my answer was directly OPPOSED to his counsel. It has become the biggest crisis of faith in my life. I KNOW that there is evil designs and purposes behind the pandemic and the vax. Which has led me to question our leadership for the first time in my life. And the harder I looked and questioned, the more they failed the test.

Agree

A mulligan or two is required when analyzing any human behavior. We all make mistakes, usually because we lack education or information...

But...when the entire operation of Q15 is now joined at the hip with agenda 2030, the UN and progressive leftist ideology...

...and offering NO retractions, apologies or remorse.

....you can't ALLOW ANY MORE MULLIGANS!!!

It's time to call a spade a spade. The professional apologists on the forum have been spitting into the wind for some time now...calling their snot covered bodies...a safe and effective Godsent rain.

The church believes in being subject to all these magistrates and kings and WHO and WEF and so forth. That's the article of faith 12.

Look at it this way. These heads of government and ruling groups are supported by the people and the church has to work with people where they are at. If we the people would bring down those ruling organizations then the church would no longer be subject to them. So, it isn't the church's fault for being subject to such institutions. The church serves the people and we the people have set these kingdoms up.

Therefore the kingdom of God must grow alongside the kingdom of babylon. This is for purpose of function. Not for purpose of belief.

Being subject to a king isn't the same as believing in said king. And the day will come when the rightful king is on the earth and reigns with power. But it's up for us, the people, to make space for that to happen by obeying Jesus when He taught us to obey God and only serve Him.

In other words, if the church has press conferences so as to look like they are inline with the kings of babylon, I would take it with a grain of salt. We say we will be subject to these guys the same way Jesus said agree with your enemy so you don't go to jail.

The missionary and temple and even church schools have closed for all intents and purposes if one has to obey babylon to partake in it. This means we are ever so close to the appearance of the Kingdom of God. But don't expect the church to fight against these kingdoms. They are going to publically go along with it. But following the Spirit one will know that all these things are being called to a halt. We see this by the signs of the times, something the church cannot make a public ordeal or else they would appear to be in a fight with babylon, a fight they will lose because God's kingdom is not yet here. But when one has to choose between babylon and God just to go to school, just to be a missionary, then we know we are near the end. Like the children of Israel against the Red Sea. We have that pillar of fire which is the power of discernment to protect us for a short while. We have to wait for God to provide away of escape.

I assume that soon, heavy persecution will come to all who don't bow to the beast. It's going to get to the point where our bank accounts are frozen and we all become homeless. At which point at least we can be happy there will be no more property tax.

So it is, gathering at church property could save our lives and allow us to begin communities anew in the days ahead. Huh, D&C45 says just that.

The "church" meaning those hwo are christians are to believe in being so Christlike that it converts other. The whole "being subject" thing isn't about "acting like" or "being like" the point is to not run around appearing like their goal is ot overthrow the governments. IT is through spiritual change the government will be overthrown, not by physical. Whether they are acting our of fear, or courage, or to get gain etc. are other factors. Who knows the intents and thougths of their heart - is it false tradition that guides them? Or are they more nefarious? Only God knows, but we can pray for them so they know God (and se we can as well) in order, like Alma the older, try to bring them to the truth- but we must know the truth first and truly be seeking to beocme more like Christ rather than just taking His place as a judge.

[John Tavner]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Luke is Red letters bro. That is Christ. I already addressed that. Show me Paul's words.

Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses."

Also, I'm 99% sure you literally ignored half of what I wrote and shotgunned an answer.

[Atrasado]

I know of at least six buildings in the city near where I live where the buildings are bigger than the Church Office Building.

Try again.

You couldn't do that when it was built. It was the tallest building by five stories in Utah when it was built and remained that way for 25 years.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Luke is Red letters bro. That is Christ. I already addressed that. Show me Paul's words.

Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses."

Also, I'm 99% sure you literally ignored half of what I wrote and shotgunned an answer.

Oh, my bad. I had Paul on the brain from another chapter. BUT, that even strengthen the original argument. We are to forgive when the offender repents. Christ does not forgive sin for those unwilling to seek forgiveness.

[John Tavner]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Luke is Red letters bro. That is Christ. I already addressed that. Show me Paul's words.

Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses."

Also, I'm 99% sure you literally ignored half of what I wrote and shotgunned an answer.

Oh, my bad. I had Paul on the brain from another chapter. BUT, that even strengthen the original argument. We are to forgive when the offender repents. Christ does not forgive sin for those unwilling to seek forgiveness.

Except every single other verse that I Included which shows otherwise on our part - you want to be forgiven? Forgive others. Christ died for your sins before you asked for it? You should bear the cross and forgive them too.

All the red letters from Christ (if you read what I wrote) Which I am again convinced you have not. It isn't an all or nothing verse. That one verse doesn't contradict all the others. We have to figure out how it fits. IT fits likes this - You rebuke them and they ask forgiveness you do it even if they keep asking and keep messing up. They don't ask forgiveness. You don't forgive them in the moment, but you pray to God and ask forgiveness and OGd is like "hey man, there is this guy you ought to forgive" "Oh yeah" If I want forgivness I need to forgive. That is how it fits together.

[FoundMyEden]

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Yes, Paul did: Luke 17:
3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Agreed. This is taught completely backwards and does so much damage to people who forgive the unrepentant. Thank you for bringing this up.

JohnT also mentioned forgiveness 70x7 and I believe we aren’t asked to forgive 490x’s (even if it’s metaphorical…it still makes no sense.) I believe it has to do with Daniels 70 week prophecy. It makes a lot more sense.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Except every single other verse that I Included which shows otherwise on our part - you want to be forgiven? Forgive others. Christ died for your sins before you asked for it? You should bear the cross and forgive them too.

All the red letters from Christ (if you read what I wrote) Which I am again convinced you have not. It isn't an all or nothing verse. That one verse doesn't contradict all the others. We have to figure out how it fits. IT fits likes this - You rebuke them and they ask forgiveness you do it even if they keep asking and keep messing up. They don't ask forgiveness. You don't forgive them in the moment, but you pray to God and ask forgiveness and OGd is like "hey man, there is this guy you ought to forgive" "Oh yeah" If I want forgivness I need to forgive. That is how it fits together.

Yes, I want forgiveness, but that is only possible when I repent. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

[John Tavner]

Except every single other verse that I Included which shows otherwise on our part - you want to be forgiven? Forgive others. Christ died for your sins before you asked for it? You should bear the cross and forgive them too.

All the red letters from Christ (if you read what I wrote) Which I am again convinced you have not. It isn't an all or nothing verse. That one verse doesn't contradict all the others. We have to figure out how it fits. IT fits likes this - You rebuke them and they ask forgiveness you do it even if they keep asking and keep messing up. They don't ask forgiveness. You don't forgive them in the moment, but you pray to God and ask forgiveness and OGd is like "hey man, there is this guy you ought to forgive" "Oh yeah" If I want forgivness I need to forgive. That is how it fits together.

Yes, I want forgiveness, but that is only possible when I repent. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

In order to receive forgiveness you too must forgive others regardless of whether or not others sought your forgiveness. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

A better question: Why on earth do you want to hold onto unforgiveness towards others for the rest of your life? You are creating a hell for yourself.

[Atrasado]

I don't really have the right to criticize him. He tells people to do good, so at least he isn't getting up and leading people to commit evil. As to his private righteousness... We had Elder Renlund to our area last week. He spoke to us from Ezekial 33, and he spoke about if a man repents of his sins, they shall no more be mentioned to him.

I know how much that means to me, because I have had people use my past to hate me and I didn't like it one bit. Then the spirit convicted me if I am not guilty of thinking the same about Pres Nelson.

Maybe Pres Nelson isn't perfect. He even admits in his career his work resulted in the deaths of children and how badly he pleaded for forgiveness because of it. Contrasting it to looking at sin, because his career work was not a sin... But still a good metaphor... If he had past failures and mistakes forgiven by Jesus Christ in the process of becoming His prophet.... And I am sitting here focusing on his faults... well... that sure makes me look bad.

Now I have this understanding that Jesus Christ really can and does forgive sins. My past sins and failures, and if he does so for me then who am I to say but that He most likely does so for Pres. Nelson as well.

Even though the Holy Spirit itself has witnessed to me about the abominations in high places, I need to submit to the other truth the Holy Spirit witnesses of, that Jesus is mighty to save. And once a person is saved, their sins are not to be mentioned anymore.

Perhaps Pres. Nelson is going to continue to make a few adjustments to things. For example, and this is just a hypothetical guess, but perhaps things will continue to shift so people have a personal relationship with Jesus as per to their temple worthiness and not the organization in charge of such affairs. I don't know. But whatever changes may happen and have happened, it can cause one to question what is really going on. I know I have. I also know we have had a lot of straight up evil we have been warring with.

But I just seem to have this breakthrough that Jesus has a job. It's to make us stand in agreement, to make us whole, to at one ment us. And He is going to bring it to pass.

And those who back bite and accuse, whether the things they speak about are true or false, the act of back biting is surely a sin. Because in the zeal to expose evil, it becomes evil itself.

Even exposing evil causes pain and separation. But washing evil away with the righteousnes of Christ, and removing it so we can be clothed in righteousness brings atonement, healing, and removes the desire to sin. And then once the sins are gone, they are not even needed to be mentioned anymore. That's a zion I wouldn't mind living in.

Paul taught that to forgive a sinner they must ask for repentance. These men in leadership positions have sinned against God by blaspheming His name. And, of course, Oaks has taught that the church never offers apologies.

Also, as I noted on another thread, it’s ok to call out false doctrine and practices, and those who perpetuate them. If you condemn us for calling out church leaders, then you’d call out most of the ancient prophets.

I don't think that is what Paul taught, though I would be happy to discuss the scripture you are referencing.

Jesus taught (before the law was fulfilled) that if we don't forgive those who trespass against us than we won't be forgiven. (Matt 6:14-15). Also we ought to forgive 70 time 7 (Matt 18:22). He even taught us to forgive thos ehtat did things in ignorance - even if it was terrible "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) "forgive our sins as we forgive those that sin against us" (Matt 6:12) Luke 6:37 " “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark 11:25 " “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." There is one scripture that might "suggest" you don't have to forgive in Luke 17, but with everything taken in Context and with all the other scriptures, only real option comes down to this forgive or don't be forgiven. Why? Because Christ took upon Himself all our sins and transgressions. IT is less about asking for forgiveness, it is more about receiving forgiveness - He set us free, the choice is ours whether to accept or reject what He so "freely offers me."

Paul did teach : Romans 12:17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” In other words trust God and don't take upon whatever anger you have, let. it. go. More often than not, we take upon ourselve sthe name of man rather than Christ when we go on our injurious rampages against those that slight us.

He later adds in Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

And in Collosians 3:13 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

We cannot judge the Church leaders, be it ever so difficult to refrain because Christ told us to not judge others. We also should forgive others, including murderous liars. We don't know why they did these things. That doesn't mean that we should trust them or follow them.

After all, Jesus taught,

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
JST, Mark 9

[Reluctant Watchman]

In order to receive forgiveness you too must forgive regardless of whether or not they sought your forgiveness. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

A better question: Why on earth do you want to hold onto unforgiveness towards others for the rest of your life. You are creating a hell for yourself.

Your first sentence directly contradicts Christ's words. Yes, I can forgive the FP for the shenanigans they've pulled. I can forgive someone for killing my child or any other type of sin, but what we are talking about in Luke is also part of that process of forgiveness. Your line of thinking is what has caused a lot of heartache within the church. "Forgive and forget" is the oft repeated mantra.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We cannot judge the Church leaders, be it ever so difficult to refrain because Christ told us to not judge others.

Again, you've forgotten most of the ancient prophets and their condemnation of church leaders.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Agreed. This is taught completely backwards and does so much damage to people who forgive the unrepentant. Thank you for bringing this up.

JohnT also mentioned forgiveness 70x7 and I believe we aren’t asked to forgive 490x’s (even if it’s metaphorical…it still makes no sense.) I believe it has to do with Daniels 70 week prophecy. It makes a lot more sense.

Probably why so much sex abuse has and is swept under the rug over the past several decades.

[Original_Intent]

Life is a Rorschach test, and what we see says more about you than about what you are seeing.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Life is a Rorschach test, and what we see says more about you than about what you are seeing.

While I believe there is much interpretation, that still doesn't make all interpretations correct.