The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

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HereWeGo
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The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by HereWeGo »

Rather than respond to some posts in other threads, I decided to start a new thread so that the other threads don’t get derailed any more than they already have.

When it comes to the question of the 15 (and others) being deceived, evil, clueless or true messengers, I have wondered if the following could be true. I wonder if most aren’t in the following situation:

• They know that none of them have spoken with Christ face-to-face like what happened in Joseph’s day. Oaks said that none of them had even seen an angel.
• They have risen to be the leaders of a massive corporation, of which millions of members follow faithfully. These members depend upon the leaders and corporation for direction and guidance in their lives
• They do their best to try to keep up the image that the church is being lead by directions from Christ although they don’t quote any of His words of revelation. They don’t even lay claim to direct PSR revelation—they only let people assume that they do see Christ and get directions from Him.
• They consider themselves the only hope for these members who are relying on the words from the 15 for guidance.
• They want to do the best job that they can to help the people even they are in a difficult position of having to do this on their own. They aren’t getting direct guidance from Christ and know it. They are getting guidance the same way that the rest of us do.
• They may have decided that the Lord has revealed all he needs to reveal at this time and all that is needed is a united group of leaders to help guide the flock. They conclude that as long as they are all in harmony with a policy or doctrine, the Lord will rubber stamp that decision and bless those efforts going forward.
• The flock needs shepherds and the 15 are all that the flock has. They deserve to be the leaders because they are the cream which has risen to the top.

I don’t think any of us will ever know where they are really at. We sure do spend a lot of time trying to figure this out.
Please share your thoughts.

Remember that we are not here to change what people believe by letting this get personal and turn into a heated debate. Sharing our thoughts can help others who are questioning.

p8riot
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by p8riot »

I think they are a product of what the church has slowly morphed into over at least the last 100 years. They probably don't feel the need or expect to see Christ because that is what they've been taught their whole lives coming up through the leadership ranks of the church. When was the last time that a church apostle or general authority ever claimed a direct manifestation from the Lord or His angels? They are following how they were taught the church operates and the pride of being PSRs that can't possibly lead the church astray has been instilled in them just as with most of the church membership. Same thing as with what happened in ancient Israel- while there were some pivotal doctrinal changes now and again, most of it happened slowly over time and tradition took over. There wasn't one moment in time when the Pharisees suddenly became the Pharisees that would end up Crucifying the Messiah. It happened gradually over generations and I'm sure many of the Pharisees were absolutely sure they were right. I think the main changes that have happened with the 15 over the generations are: 1. They started trusting in the arm of flesh (namely themselves, which lead to "follow the brethren" doctrine) and then 2. That trust/pride is leading them to embrace the doctrines of the world in an effort to more easily "hasten the work" and spread it throughout the world with the least amount of opposition from the world. And in their minds they think they are right.

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Chip
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Chip »

That's an excellent list.

I would also add that they feel they have the right to gaslight members and they are comfortable employing mind-control techniques in their talks.

They also are on-board with the Latter-Day Gadiantons and seem to believe that there is no harm in being so.

Really, I would have to deduce that they don't actually believe in God as they teach the rest of us to. Well, much of what they do is teach us to believe in THEM as proxies for God. They are the "living oracles" and can't mislead anyone.

The COVID situation really exposed where they are at. I think Isaiah completely nailed them and I consider Isaiah absolutely authoritative on their status. They are not credible, themselves.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Those 15 men are brilliant.

They’ve convinced millions of people that they are going to heaven because a man gave them a barcode to scan in order to enter multi-million dollar buildings.

But remember, we can put our complete trust in them.

Image

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Niemand »

Chip wrote: May 8th, 2022, 10:06 pm They also are on-board with the Latter-Day Gadiantons and seem to believe that there is no harm in being so.
I am prepared to believe that at least some of them don't know what they are involved with, and think they are a) promoting the church and b) using its positive influence.

In fact, a lot of globalist projects sound good if you look at them only on the surface level e.g. eliminating poverty and disease, reducing industrial pollution, creating peace, "creating dialogue between faith groups"... few people could object to most of these. Even the last one. But in reality, these are just the surface aims, and are not what really lies beneath most of those projects.

I think a lot of people are hooked into globalism when they are told it will get rid of many of the horrific issues the world has faced over the last 120 years. They're told we need integration between nations to stop violence and disasters.
Really, I would have to deduce that they don't actually believe in God as they teach the rest of us to. Well, much of what they do is teach us to believe in THEM as proxies for God. They are the "living oracles" and can't mislead anyone.
Most people in this world believe in God. It doesn't make you a good person. Even Satan believes in God, because he has a certainty of his existence.

The problem here arises in the "living oracle" bit, because they DO play that game. They know the truth is much more mundane.

They have become the very thing the Restoration was supposed to stop.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

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They are the Fab15 driven to do the Lord’s will, but driving the wrong car. :lol:

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The Red Pill
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by The Red Pill »

Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I feel it is an innate desire of a good honest person to look for the good in others and to place our trust in them. Joseph Smith had this trait and I think it came back to bite him. I believe it was Emma who once said that Joseph was often too trusting of others.

While I want to think these men are just ignorant of doctrine and scripture, I have come to believe that while there may be degrees of concession to dark side, a few of them are truly ravening wolves with all of the vestiges of a sheep. They know what they are doing and who they are serving. These people are very good at controlling the minds and behavior of the saints (as Chip mentioned above). They are playing the saints and making a killing off of it, and destroying families in the process. And worse, they are leading people away from Christ and His doctrine in many instances. The simple fact that they have changed the very definition and process of salvation, and added to Christ’s doctrine of salvation, speaks volumes.

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Chip
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Chip »

The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:04 am Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????

Imagine if it becomes widely understood that the COVID vaxx was the biggest crime in world history. How are the Q15 going to survive that, when it would be obvious that they were 100% willing accomplices? Many members had the good sense to not get the shots, but they got them, anyway, because they had been carefully led to believe that that the Q15 were infallible, and the greatest demonstration of their Christian faith would be to do as they were told by these men. This is a disaster of biblical proportions. Just biblical. End of an epoch.
Last edited by Chip on May 9th, 2022, 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Niemand
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Niemand »

The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:04 am Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????
'Scuse the Devil's advocate here, but they may just think, "Benson was a John Bircher and we can't listen to extremists."

Also once you've invested in something, folk tend to try and justify it.

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Niemand
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Niemand »

Chip wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:01 am
The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:04 am Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????

Imagine if it becomes widely understood that the COVID vaxx was the biggest crime in world history. How are the Q15 going to survive that, when it would be obvious that they were 100% willing accomplices? Many members had the good sense to not get the shots, but they got them, anyway, because they had been carefully led to believe that that the Q15 were infallible, and the greatest demonstration of their Christian faith would be to do as they were told by these men? This is a disaster of biblical proportion. Just biblical. End of an epoch.
I think it may well be, but not for long. Even worse is being planned, and these old men probably think it's for the peace and security of this world.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Mamabear »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:45 am I feel it is an innate desire of a good honest person to look for the good in others and to place our trust in them. Joseph Smith had this trait and I think it came back to bite him. I believe it was Emma who once said that Joseph was often too trusting of others.

While I want to think these men are just ignorant of doctrine and scripture, I have come to believe that while there may be degrees of concession to dark side, a few of them are truly ravening wolves with all of the vestiges of a sheep. They know what they are doing and who they are serving. These people are very good at controlling the minds and behavior of the saints (as Chip mentioned above). They are playing the saints and making a killing off of it, and destroying families in the process. And worse, they are leading people away from Christ and His doctrine in many instances. The simple fact that they have changed the very definition and process of salvation, and added to Christ’s doctrine of salvation, speaks volumes.
Which ones are wolves?

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Perhaps some of the brethren have seen Christ and some haven't. Perhaps they all have, Perhaps none of them have. Does it really matter whether the brethren have seen Christ or not?

I don't know of any place in the scriptures or any statement by Joseph Smith that states that seeing Christ and declaring that one has seen him is a requirement for being a prophet or apostle?

This didn't appear to a requirement for the selection of the original Quorum of the 12 apostles on this dispensation. And Joseph Smith obviously didn't consider this to be necessary when he had the entire first presidency and Quorum of the Twelve sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, as we have no record of most of these men unequivocally declaring that they had seen Christ face to face. For that matter, when did Joseph Smith unequivocally publicly declare that he had seen Christ face to face?

I don't think it's any of our business whether or not they have seen Christ. It is their calling to lead us and we have covenanted to sustain them and to refrain from speaking evil about them. They aren't infallible or perfect, but I believe that they are good men doing the best they can to magnify a very difficult calling. They deserve our support and prayers, not our derision.

I think it's clear that 99% of what they teach is good and if followed will lead one closer to Christ. Why not follow these teachings and put them to the test to see if they bring good fruits in your life, instead of scrutinizing every statement and action with a microscope in the hopes of finding as many faults as possible?

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by LDS Watchman »

I also find it interesting that many here cling to President Benson's statements warning about secret combinations, while seemingly forgetting that he gave arguably the most forceful "follow the prophet" talk ever recorded and it was under his watch that the endowment underwent sweeping changes in 1990.

Why do people give Benson the benefit of the doubt, but not Nelson?

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Mamabear wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:36 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:45 am I feel it is an innate desire of a good honest person to look for the good in others and to place our trust in them. Joseph Smith had this trait and I think it came back to bite him. I believe it was Emma who once said that Joseph was often too trusting of others.

While I want to think these men are just ignorant of doctrine and scripture, I have come to believe that while there may be degrees of concession to dark side, a few of them are truly ravening wolves with all of the vestiges of a sheep. They know what they are doing and who they are serving. These people are very good at controlling the minds and behavior of the saints (as Chip mentioned above). They are playing the saints and making a killing off of it, and destroying families in the process. And worse, they are leading people away from Christ and His doctrine in many instances. The simple fact that they have changed the very definition and process of salvation, and added to Christ’s doctrine of salvation, speaks volumes.
Which ones are wolves?
Good question. All of them have made certain concessions. IMO… Nelson, Oaks, and Eyring are definitely on the list. Renlund, Rasband and Bednar are right up there. I’m honestly shocked that not a single Q15 dissented after the stunts the FP pulled last year.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on May 9th, 2022, 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Atticus wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:53 am I also find it interesting that many here cling to President Benson's statements warning about secret combinations, while seemingly forgetting that he gave arguably the most forceful "follow the prophet" talk ever recorded and it was under his watch that the endowment underwent sweeping changes in 1990.

Why do people give Benson the benefit of the doubt, but not Nelson?
You can exclude me from that list of “people” btw. :)

EDIT: I should clarify, Benson was worlds away from RMN.

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The Red Pill
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by The Red Pill »

Chip wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:01 am
The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:04 am Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????

Imagine if it becomes widely understood that the COVID vaxx was the biggest crime in world history. How are the Q15 going to survive that, when it would be obvious that they were 100% willing accomplices? Many members had the good sense to not get the shots, but they got them, anyway, because they had been carefully led to believe that that the Q15 were infallible, and the greatest demonstration of their Christian faith would be to do as they were told by these men. This is a disaster of biblical proportions. Just biblical. End of an epoch.
Short answer...they are finished, done...game, set match when it is common knowledge that the jab is deadly.

To put some perspective on what Q15 has done...Look up serial killers on Google...the largest killed just over 300...Q15 has exceeded that by a LARGE MARGIN....let that sink in...slowly!!!!!

They bet the farm on the jab...THEY LOST!!!!!

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 9:59 am Short answer...they are finished, done...game, set match when it is common knowledge that the jab is deadly.

To put some perspective on what Q15 has done...Look up serial killers on Google...the largest killed just over 300...Q15 has exceeded that by a LARGE MARGIN....let that sink in...slowly!!!!!

They bet the farm on the jab...THEY LOST!!!!!
I think for many of us this was an answer to prayer, to see them tip their hand to the NWO. This has allowed for a great awakening to happen within the church.

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Subcomandante
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Subcomandante »

Atticus wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:46 am Perhaps some of the brethren have seen Christ and some haven't. Perhaps they all have, Perhaps none of them have. Does it really matter whether the brethren have seen Christ or not?
To a certain degree it actually does. An Apostle had to be a witness of His Resurrection, that is, to see Him after His resurrection.
I don't know of any place in the scriptures or any statement by Joseph Smith that states that seeing Christ and declaring that one has seen him is a requirement for being a prophet or apostle?
You won't find it from Joseph Smith, but you will find it in the New Testament of the Bible. First chapter of Acts.
This didn't appear to a requirement for the selection of the original Quorum of the 12 apostles on this dispensation. And Joseph Smith obviously didn't consider this to be necessary when he had the entire first presidency and Quorum of the Twelve sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, as we have no record of most of these men unequivocally declaring that they had seen Christ face to face. For that matter, when did Joseph Smith unequivocally publicly declare that he had seen Christ face to face?
This is quite a reach for you to ask that question. The missionaries literally recite Joseph Smith's words to every prospective investigator on their first lesson. We don't have absolutely unequivocal statements from every single Apostle that they have directly seen Christ. Many, including a few of the current ones, have implied it.
I don't think it's any of our business whether or not they have seen Christ. It is their calling to lead us and we have covenanted to sustain them and to refrain from speaking evil about them. They aren't infallible or perfect, but I believe that they are good men doing the best they can to magnify a very difficult calling. They deserve our support and prayers, not our derision.
That we can agree on, they need our support and prayers. But, if you feel like the Apostles are doing things that are wrong or incorrect, do you feel like it is correct to just let them be, or do you think it is better to warn of the dangers up ahead? I think if I were to truly sustain them, I would need to send them the warnings. We have Paul rebuke Peter directly in the Scriptures. Many of the earlier Apostles likely took good lickings from other members.
I think it's clear that 99% of what they teach is good and if followed will lead one closer to Christ. Why not follow these teachings and put them to the test to see if they bring good fruits in your life, instead of scrutinizing every statement and action with a microscope in the hopes of finding as many faults as possible?
I agree with this too, Atticus. But what happens with the 1 percent? Would this go under "the prophet is only the prophet when he is speaking as such?" With any prophetic teaching, you have to put it to the test. A divine test. As in, praying to God to understand the truth (see Book of Mormon, Moroni 10). And trust that the Holy Spirit will be able to reveal the truth of all things to you.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by LDS Physician »

Chip wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:01 am
The Red Pill wrote: May 9th, 2022, 6:04 am Ezra Taft Benson gave ample fervent testimony AGAINST the Gads....from the pulpit and in books.

Current Q15 is very much aware of what he said and wrote...they have CHOSEN to dismiss it.

I personally know many that have written detailed letters to Q15 WARNING them of the dangers of the deadly-jab...they have all been ignored.

Do you see a pattern here?????

Imagine if it becomes widely understood that the COVID vaxx was the biggest crime in world history. How are the Q15 going to survive that, when it would be obvious that they were 100% willing accomplices? Many members had the good sense to not get the shots, but they got them, anyway, because they had been carefully led to believe that that the Q15 were infallible, and the greatest demonstration of their Christian faith would be to do as they were told by these men. This is a disaster of biblical proportions. Just biblical. End of an epoch.
Come on, Chip. They aren't allowed to leave us astray.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I think a few of you need a reminder. The church has changed Christ's definition of salvation. This is a whole lot bigger than 1% of LDS theology:

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by HeberC »

I used to try to figure out whether someone was evil or stupid. Those two categories are always closely connected. The metaphor I use for the effort of distinguishing between the two is: picking corn out of a turd. I consider that a waste of time. I have heard people say that people are afraid of the truth. The Lord says people 'hate the truth'. That had been hard for me to wrap my head around but I realized that those that love a lie, hate the truth. Those who embrace lies hate the truth.

The Holy Ghost helps us to discern between truth and lies. Joseph Smith said the effect of the Holy Ghost's influence is pure intelligence and that in his day, there were many sons of perdition on the earth. I maintain that those who choose stupid over intelligence are sinning against the Holy Ghost, which makes them sons of perdition. They may sincerely believe their lies, but if they do, they have voted for stupid/evil. They have become a distraction to me. I may become distracted but I am committed to not being detoured by them. I love Jesus Christ and it is to Him that I look for direction.

endlessismyname
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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by endlessismyname »

What I am interested in is this: is there currently a mechanism in the church that will allow the members to hold our leaders accountable?

We know this mechanism exists in the scriptures, and it existed in Joseph’s day, but does it exist now?

It’s a question I’m actively exploring, but not making a lot of headway on.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by Hogmeister »

Atticus wrote: May 9th, 2022, 7:46 am Perhaps some of the brethren have seen Christ and some haven't. Perhaps they all have, Perhaps none of them have. Does it really matter whether the brethren have seen Christ or not?

I don't know of any place in the scriptures or any statement by Joseph Smith that states that seeing Christ and declaring that one has seen him is a requirement for being a prophet or apostle?

This didn't appear to a requirement for the selection of the original Quorum of the 12 apostles on this dispensation. And Joseph Smith obviously didn't consider this to be necessary when he had the entire first presidency and Quorum of the Twelve sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, as we have no record of most of these men unequivocally declaring that they had seen Christ face to face. For that matter, when did Joseph Smith unequivocally publicly declare that he had seen Christ face to face?

I don't think it's any of our business whether or not they have seen Christ. It is their calling to lead us and we have covenanted to sustain them and to refrain from speaking evil about them. They aren't infallible or perfect, but I believe that they are good men doing the best they can to magnify a very difficult calling. They deserve our support and prayers, not our derision.

I think it's clear that 99% of what they teach is good and if followed will lead one closer to Christ. Why not follow these teachings and put them to the test to see if they bring good fruits in your life, instead of scrutinizing every statement and action with a microscope in the hopes of finding as many faults as possible?
” Kirtland, Ohio 1833

Zebedee Coltrin, a member of the School of the Prophets records:

Zebedee Coltrin 1804-1877
Zebedee Coltrin 1804-1877
At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized on the 23rd of January, 1833) when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered “that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother.” Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.

The Newel K. Whitney store - Kirtland, Ohio
The Newel K. Whitney store – Kirtland, Ohio
[When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said:] I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: “Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages.”…

The school room was in the upper room of [Newel K.] Whitney’s store.

Notes

“Statement of Zebedee Coltrin,” Minutes, 3 October 1883, Salt Lake School of Prophets, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 56-58; see also Lyndon W. Cook, The Revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1981), 187-88.

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Re: The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

Post by iWriteStuff »

endlessismyname wrote: May 9th, 2022, 11:08 am What I am interested in is this: is there currently a mechanism in the church that will allow the members to hold our leaders accountable?

We know this mechanism exists in the scriptures, and it existed in Joseph’s day, but does it exist now?

It’s a question I’m actively exploring, but not making a lot of headway on.
You have about as much right to hold them accountable as you do the leadership of North Korea. You can't protest or complain without being spiritually put to death.

It was not always so, but it is now and has been for some time.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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