The 15 PSRs -- where are they at and what drives them.

[InfoWarrior82]

Info: I don't know what you are trying to say. I said that Paul, Nephi(s), all apostles after Jesus' death, etc... never claimed to see god! NOT ONE OF THEM! Neither, Amos, Jonah, on and on. Are you saying they are not special witnesses? If not then you have a new term, and I don't care to take on your definition of a new term any more than LDS or Catholic definitions. The principle is clear, god calls men to holy callings, and very, very, very, very seldom do they seem him, but they are his prophets or witnesses (pick your dispensation and title).

If you disagree with this, then you are just picking a fight, not really trying to sort out truth as it is clear. I'm guessing we could sit down and go through about 100 prophets/leaders/apostles/disciples/presidents/HPs, whatever and you will find less than 5 that claim to see Jesus (other than in his life and in the few days after). If not. SHOW ME where those I listed saw god's face (not even his backside)! I will patiently await your list of scriptural references.

I'm certain that all worthy apostles (Special Witnesses) have indeed SEEN, HEARD, and FELT Him in the flesh even if we don't yet have written record of it.

[TheDuke]

Info: your opinion, is obviously yours, but to contend against others, I would think you would need some evidence (scriptures or direct revelation).

I mean if it was true and important to have to see god's face (or his body even) in person or vision to be a prophet/apostle, then it would be recorded, at least, say 50% of the time (as some could be lost) but it isn't so it isn't or wasn't important to those leaders. Not saying it didn't happen but then we're back to the issue that one could claim all the Q15 have seen him and just don't talk about it? Therefore, it is pretty long stretch to add limitations or restrictions or requirement, if they just NEVER exist in any record, with very few and very special exceptions.

BTW, IMO the opposite is true. Few, I mean only handfuls of people have seen god's face, I mean in person (i.e. visitation). To see god in a dream or vision, seems more people (like OC and a few) but I only know 2 people since the flood to claim to see god's actual face that is BoJ and JS. That is outside of the resurrection of Jesus where many saw him in new and old world for a few days to provide witness of his resurrection, most of them were not even church leaders, just devout followers (in both hemispheres).

[Serragon]

In order to be a witness to something, you have to have actually experienced that thing. You must have seen it or heard it. Many of us testify of Christ, but we do so as a witness of the Holy Ghost, not Christ Himself. It is an indirect witness.

The apostles are to be "special" witnesses of Christ. If a normal witness of Christ is actually an indirect witness of Him through the Holy Ghost, then what would constitute a "special" witness? Seems to me that it would have to be experiencing Christ directly.

Knowing that Jesus is the Christ is one of the gift of the spirit, that is not given to all members. Most of us who say we know that Jesus lives, do not actually know it. We have faith in it.

I don't think that a sure witness of the Holy Ghost is an "indirect witness."

I think the brethren have likely had experiences in addition to the witness of the Holy Ghost, but it's really none of our business whether that was a face to face meeting with Christ, a vision, a dream, or something else.

Thank you for the response. I appreciate it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Reluctant: you can interpret anything any way you desire, that is your right. My point is that if you truly believe in JS and BoM as you say, meaning a follower of modern gospel via restoration, then leaving has no scriptural basis. SHOW ME, just simply SHOW ME where is says to "depart", "leave", "separate", any version there of. Not to beware, or follow blindly, or do stupid things, but "leave". If you show me a clear reference to this effect, I will acknowledge that I missed it and give heed. I am pretty well versed in scripture, but will freely admit, I don't know all scripture, and worse, my memory ain't what it used to be! But, I cannot find or recall any command to leave the god appointed leaders, until a new one is called, EVER, but I could be wrong.

"...god appointed leaders" This is where we deviate in our viewpoint. You can follow these men to hell. I will not.

[TheDuke]

Reluctant: you keep twisting what I'm asking. I said god created a church. I can easily show that over the generations since Adam, many times the leaders (god appointed you say, but seemingly not always) go astray, and never does it say to walk away. I will not follow leaders to hell. I'm not even challenging if the leaders are right, wrong, called of god or not.

I you seem to claim that if you don't like what they teach (which is surely up to you) you can walk away. Sure, you can, but I'm asking where in the scriptures or history of all of gods millennials of teachings he gave people direction to do this? You twist this to ".... god appointed leaders..... I mean like Eli? and it isn't a viewpoint I asking about it is scriptural direction that you have derived. Quote Isaiah, Nephi, Revelation, Daniel, Moroni, etc. All warned of bad times and bad (or not too good anyway) leaders, none gave direction to walk away. There is no difference of interpretation here. There is no interpretation at all. I'm not saying you are right, wrong or indifferent, I am saying do NOT claim the scriptures say to walk away from god's church (not his current leaders), if you're unhappy. But then again, we only have 6000 years of scriptures to pick from on two continents.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Info: I don't know what you are trying to say. I said that Paul, Nephi(s), all apostles after Jesus' death, etc... never claimed to see god! NOT ONE OF THEM! Neither, Amos, Jonah, on and on. Are you saying they are not special witnesses? If not then you have a new term, and I don't care to take on your definition of a new term any more than LDS or Catholic definitions. The principle is clear, god calls men to holy callings, and very, very, very, very seldom do they seem him, but they are his prophets or witnesses (pick your dispensation and title).

If you disagree with this, then you are just picking a fight, not really trying to sort out truth as it is clear. I'm guessing we could sit down and go through about 100 prophets/leaders/apostles/disciples/presidents/HPs, whatever and you will find less than 5 that claim to see Jesus (other than in his life and in the few days after). If not. SHOW ME where those I listed saw god's face (not even his backside)! I will patiently await your list of scriptural references.

Info: sorry I didn't see your post before, but that is exactly what I was saying, are you Bob? (sorry for the sarcasm but it just seemed fit and I'm sore from hunting all day turkeys).

Moroni did

Ether 12:39
39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

[HereWeGo]

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.

Ordinations are not complete if they have not had a personal meeting with Christ.

[madvin]

Info: I don't know what you are trying to say. I said that Paul, Nephi(s), all apostles after Jesus' death, etc... never claimed to see god! NOT ONE OF THEM! Neither, Amos, Jonah, on and on. Are you saying they are not special witnesses? If not then you have a new term, and I don't care to take on your definition of a new term any more than LDS or Catholic definitions. The principle is clear, god calls men to holy callings, and very, very, very, very seldom do they seem him, but they are his prophets or witnesses (pick your dispensation and title).

If you disagree with this, then you are just picking a fight, not really trying to sort out truth as it is clear. I'm guessing we could sit down and go through about 100 prophets/leaders/apostles/disciples/presidents/HPs, whatever and you will find less than 5 that claim to see Jesus (other than in his life and in the few days after). If not. SHOW ME where those I listed saw god's face (not even his backside)! I will patiently await your list of scriptural references.

Info: sorry I didn't see your post before, but that is exactly what I was saying, are you Bob? (sorry for the sarcasm but it just seemed fit and I'm sore from hunting all day turkeys).

Moroni did

Ether 12:39
39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

I remember Pres Kimball saying that he knew what Christ looked like, and referred to one of the pictures of the Savior hanging in a hallway of the SL temple that looked a lot like Him...so I assumed he saw Him.

[Luke]

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.

Ordinations are not complete if they have not had a personal meeting with Christ.

To the calling of Apostle, that is.

[InfoWarrior82]

Info: I don't know what you are trying to say. I said that Paul, Nephi(s), all apostles after Jesus' death, etc... never claimed to see god! NOT ONE OF THEM! Neither, Amos, Jonah, on and on. Are you saying they are not special witnesses? If not then you have a new term, and I don't care to take on your definition of a new term any more than LDS or Catholic definitions. The principle is clear, god calls men to holy callings, and very, very, very, very seldom do they seem him, but they are his prophets or witnesses (pick your dispensation and title).

If you disagree with this, then you are just picking a fight, not really trying to sort out truth as it is clear. I'm guessing we could sit down and go through about 100 prophets/leaders/apostles/disciples/presidents/HPs, whatever and you will find less than 5 that claim to see Jesus (other than in his life and in the few days after). If not. SHOW ME where those I listed saw god's face (not even his backside)! I will patiently await your list of scriptural references.

Info: sorry I didn't see your post before, but that is exactly what I was saying, are you Bob? (sorry for the sarcasm but it just seemed fit and I'm sore from hunting all day turkeys).

Moroni did

Ether 12:39
39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

I remember Pres Kimball saying that he knew what Christ looked like, and referred to one of the pictures of the Savior hanging in a hallway of the SL temple that looked a lot like Him...so I assumed he saw Him.

Riiight. Saw him, but didn't write down a single thing He said...

[HereWeGo]

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.

Ordinations are not complete if they have not had a personal meeting with Christ.

To the calling of Apostle, that is.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Free_Man]

It has been brought up that none of the apostles after the original 12 were actual witnesses of Christ resurrection. I submit Acts 1:22-26
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

The reason Joseph and Mathias were even considered to fill the apostleship is because they had the same witness of the resurrection.

On the subject of Paul's witness I submit 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. Paul's entire message of the Gospel rests on the testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the duty of an apostle to testify of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is why Thomas received his special visitation. (see John 20:24–29) It was his right to see the resurrected Lord, so he could stand as one of the apostles. The word apostle means, one who is sent. Sent for what? To stand as a special witness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Read Mormon's comments in Moroni 7. They way which the Lord does his work is to have some shown heavenly massagers, angels and such, so they can stand as a witness that others may have faith.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

Moroni teaches that God is a God of miracles. He never ceases doing his work. Miracles, visions, revelations are signs of his work. This is how he does it. If these things cease it is because of the lack of faith. It reminds my of that line from the First Vision, "Such things ceased with the apostles." Hence, the need for the restoration.

The notion that there are men claiming to be apostles as a title, but without a witness is hypocritical. It is playing dressup--play acting. To claim to be PSRs without prophecy, visions, revelations, seership manifestations is taking the Lord's name in vain--saying to speak for the Lord when without having the proper divine gifts. The very message of the Restoration is to bring back the same church was in Christ's day, with the same power, signs, miracles, authority, power, and doctrine. Other churches and ministers claim they have been called by the Holy Spirit and have a message from the the Holy Spirit to share. In the Church of Jesus Christ, is has a foundation of apostles and prophets, who have a sure knowledge, a sure witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. This question of divine witness is at the very core of the church. I will freely admit, this is the question that I just cannot answer on the temple recommend. "Do you sustain...as prophet, seers, and revelators." These aren't administrative titles.

[MikeMaillet]

The original Apostles spent time with Christ and were witnesses of His divinity. Their task was to take the Gospel to the Gentiles and be witnesses of Christ as being our God and Saviour. Our job in modern times is to take the Gospel to the Israelites. Are today's Apostles not supposed to be doing what the original Apostles did? I remember Pres. Kimball making the effort of reaching out to native peoples but our current crop are too busy running a business and building malls.

Introduction to the Book of Mormon as written by the hands of Mormon:

Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

If we and our current crop of Apostles were living the covenant wherein all things are in common... we could all be "special" witnesses of Christ but that isn't the case.

Isaiah 1

15) When you spread forth your hands,
I will conceal my eyes from you;
though you pray at length, I will not hear—
your hands are filled with blood.

16) Wash yourselves clean:
remove your wicked deeds
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil.

17) Learn to do good: demand justice,
stand up for the oppressed;
plead the cause of the fatherless,
appeal on behalf of the widow.

18) Come now, let us put it to the test,
says Jehovah:

I find verse 18 rather interesting.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[InfoWarrior82]

It has been brought up that none of the apostles after the original 12 were actual witnesses of Christ resurrection. I submit Acts 1:22-26
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

The reason Joseph and Mathias were even considered to fill the apostleship is because they had the same witness of the resurrection.

On the subject of Paul's witness I submit 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. Paul's entire message of the Gospel rests on the testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the duty of an apostle to testify of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is why Thomas received his special visitation. (see John 20:24–29) It was his right to see the resurrected Lord, so he could stand as one of the apostles. The word apostle means, one who is sent. Sent for what? To stand as a special witness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Read Mormon's comments in Moroni 7. They way which the Lord does his work is to have some shown heavenly massagers, angels and such, so they can stand as a witness that others may have faith.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

Moroni teaches that God is a God of miracles. He never ceases doing his work. Miracles, visions, revelations are signs of his work. This is how he does it. If these things cease it is because of the lack of faith. It reminds my of that line from the First Vision, "Such things ceased with the apostles." Hence, the need for the restoration.

The notion that there are men claiming to be apostles as a title, but without a witness is hypocritical. It is playing dressup--play acting. To claim to be PSRs without prophecy, visions, revelations, seership manifestations is taking the Lord's name in vain--saying to speak for the Lord when without having the proper divine gifts. The very message of the Restoration is to bring back the same church was in Christ's day, with the same power, signs, miracles, authority, power, and doctrine. Other churches and ministers claim they have been called by the Holy Spirit and have a message from the the Holy Spirit to share. In the Church of Jesus Christ, is has a foundation of apostles and prophets, who have a sure knowledge, a sure witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. This question of divine witness is at the very core of the church. I will freely admit, this is the question that I just cannot answer on the temple recommend. "Do you sustain...as prophet, seers, and revelators." These aren't administrative titles.

Thank you for this. Great post.

[EvanLM]

I feel it is an innate desire of a good honest person to look for the good in others and to place our trust in them. Joseph Smith had this trait and I think it came back to bite him. I believe it was Emma who once said that Joseph was often too trusting of others.

While I want to think these men are just ignorant of doctrine and scripture, I have come to believe that while there may be degrees of concession to dark side, a few of them are truly ravening wolves with all of the vestiges of a sheep. They know what they are doing and who they are serving. These people are very good at controlling the minds and behavior of the saints (as Chip mentioned above). They are playing the saints and making a killing off of it, and destroying families in the process. And worse, they are leading people away from Christ and His doctrine in many instances. The simple fact that they have changed the very definition and process of salvation, and added to Christ’s doctrine of salvation, speaks volumes.

Which ones are wolves?

sorry to say . . . on I know is Bednar . . . if you ask me why, I'll tell you

[EvanLM]

Ok so JS told the apostles to seek the face of god, doesn't mean they did. The one claim from Zebedee Coltrin doesn't match anything anywhere else is scripture, and none other claimed they did except JS & OC in the temple. Everyone should seek it, few (none recorded in this dispensation) have done it.

Church of Lamb: I agree that the lord can be the same yesterday, today, etc... but he surely never seemed consistent, or in other words he seemed to do it differently every time. Via a finger - BoJ, via angel - Paul, unknown - Alma, voice or thoughts - Amos, voice - Samuel, visitation - JS, burning bush - Moses, professional wrestler/angel - Jacob, angel freeing bindings - Abraham, spirit - several of the Nephi's, dad and brother - Jacob, nobody - David, lineage - for many Israelite prophets, unknown - JtBaptist, garden - Adam, death of everyone more senior - everyone in LDS after JS, brother - Hyrum Smith, voice - Jonah, called by a current apostle or leader - many Nephites, all of the post-Christ apostles save Paul. etc....

I do know people that have recieved the OC . . as you call it . . and I do know of D&C references and journal entries the claim people who have received it . . .and I do know people that have friends or family that has received it . . and I have heard the utube posts by a couple of men that have received it at he hands of holland or other apostles . .then rejected it years afterward and posted their stories . . . on utube . . my family members' OC were recorded in church records . . . the apostles recorded what they did . . .

this is what you are talking about, right? I know stake presidents that were invited to go to the temple with an apostle and revceive the OC . . by the hundreds . . .some did some didn't . . .

since it isn't necessary to complete a mission on this earth and it is not necessary to enter the CK or see Jesus . . then . . I could care less but since I was young . . people have claimed and recorded this priviledge in church records

[Mamabear]

I feel it is an innate desire of a good honest person to look for the good in others and to place our trust in them. Joseph Smith had this trait and I think it came back to bite him. I believe it was Emma who once said that Joseph was often too trusting of others.

While I want to think these men are just ignorant of doctrine and scripture, I have come to believe that while there may be degrees of concession to dark side, a few of them are truly ravening wolves with all of the vestiges of a sheep. They know what they are doing and who they are serving. These people are very good at controlling the minds and behavior of the saints (as Chip mentioned above). They are playing the saints and making a killing off of it, and destroying families in the process. And worse, they are leading people away from Christ and His doctrine in many instances. The simple fact that they have changed the very definition and process of salvation, and added to Christ’s doctrine of salvation, speaks volumes.

Which ones are wolves?

sorry to say . . . on I know is Bednar . . . if you ask me why, I'll tell you

Why? Cuz he said religion and churches are good places to quell the vaccine fears of the people in summer of 2020 as part of the UN summit?

[TheDuke]

Btw OC was oliver cowdry

[Moroni104]

For what it is worth, I went to a speech given by Russel Nelson in the Alamo Dome in San Antonio a few years ago, and he described multiple visions he had received since becoming the president of the Church. They came to him in the night. He was woken up and shown things that he needed to do for the Church. He saw the vision with his eyes.

They were all related to recent procedural changes to the Church such as the name of the Church.