CHEWED GUM (trailer)

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Niemand
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Niemand »

h_p wrote: May 4th, 2022, 8:53 am Is there a legal definition for sexual assault in Utah, and is that what they're using? I'm finding "aggravated sexual assault," at least. Here in Texas, the term "sexual assault" is specifically codified in law, and it pretty much requires penetration. Not everybody has the same definition, so are they including things like groping, indecent exposure, cat-calling, etc?

It would be good to be specific when throwing out such a huge percentage like that. And no, I don't support any of it, in case anybody's wondering, but there are varying degrees of wrong. Are they seriously saying more than 1 in 4 women in Utah have been actually raped?
The trouble with this definition is that it lets female predators off the hook. There was a test case some years ago with a woman in the navy who went round sexually assaulting females of lower ranks.

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gkearney
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by gkearney »

Well as I suspected the situation while never good is not as dire as the film presents Utah is not even in the top ten states for rape. However, I will add that the idea of sexual assault is rather vague and dependent upon a number of factors including how one defines it. Further rape is an underreported crime so we have to consider that as well.

All things taken into account I don't believe we have any good source data on this. There is just too many variables in play to be able to make any hard and fast claims one way or the other.

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Niemand
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Niemand »

gkearney wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:50 am Well as I suspected the situation while never good is not as dire as the film presents Utah is not even in the top ten states for rape. However, I will add that the idea of sexual assault is rather vague and dependent upon a number of factors including how one defines it. Further rape is an underreported crime so we have to consider that as well.

All things taken into account I don't believe we have any good source data on this. There is just too many variables in play to be able to make any hard and fast claims one way or the other.
It depends whether one is going by the rate or the raw figure.

Utah will score lower than California or New York just by having a smaller population on the latter.

The rate is more significant.

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h_p
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by h_p »

Niemand wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:08 am
h_p wrote: May 4th, 2022, 8:53 am Is there a legal definition for sexual assault in Utah, and is that what they're using? I'm finding "aggravated sexual assault," at least. Here in Texas, the term "sexual assault" is specifically codified in law, and it pretty much requires penetration. Not everybody has the same definition, so are they including things like groping, indecent exposure, cat-calling, etc?

It would be good to be specific when throwing out such a huge percentage like that. And no, I don't support any of it, in case anybody's wondering, but there are varying degrees of wrong. Are they seriously saying more than 1 in 4 women in Utah have been actually raped?
The trouble with this definition is that it lets female predators off the hook. There was a test case some years ago with a woman in the navy who went round sexually assaulting females of lower ranks.
Texas law would cover it. Utah law seems a little more vague than Texas', but I think it would, as well. Their definition of rape includes the phrase "any sexual penetration, however slight." There's also language around "object rape." The problem might be in a lopsided application, though, like is commonly done with hate crimes. Did the rapist get charged?

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Niemand
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Niemand »

h_p wrote: May 4th, 2022, 10:31 am
Niemand wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:08 am
h_p wrote: May 4th, 2022, 8:53 am Is there a legal definition for sexual assault in Utah, and is that what they're using? I'm finding "aggravated sexual assault," at least. Here in Texas, the term "sexual assault" is specifically codified in law, and it pretty much requires penetration. Not everybody has the same definition, so are they including things like groping, indecent exposure, cat-calling, etc?

It would be good to be specific when throwing out such a huge percentage like that. And no, I don't support any of it, in case anybody's wondering, but there are varying degrees of wrong. Are they seriously saying more than 1 in 4 women in Utah have been actually raped?
The trouble with this definition is that it lets female predators off the hook. There was a test case some years ago with a woman in the navy who went round sexually assaulting females of lower ranks.
Texas law would cover it. Utah law seems a little more vague than Texas', but I think it would, as well. Their definition of rape includes the phrase "any sexual penetration, however slight." There's also language around "object rape." The problem might be in a lopsided application, though, like is commonly done with hate crimes. Did the rapist get charged?
Yes, she was, and she was relieved of her rank and kicked out of the navy. Rightly.

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h_p
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by h_p »

Niemand wrote: May 4th, 2022, 11:06 am Yes, she was, and she was relieved of her rank and kicked out of the navy. Rightly.
Seems like there should have been some jail time for that, too. Good grief.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

gkearney wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:50 am Well as I suspected the situation while never good is not as dire as the film presents Utah is not even in the top ten states for rape. However, I will add that the idea of sexual assault is rather vague and dependent upon a number of factors including how one defines it. Further rape is an underreported crime so we have to consider that as well.

All things taken into account I don't believe we have any good source data on this. There is just too many variables in play to be able to make any hard and fast claims one way or the other.
"Don't worry guys, the sexual abuse wasn't THAT bad... not even in the top ten...." SMH... I get it, you want the number to be higher so that it shows a direct correlation to Utah culture, but regardless of how you want to perceive the number, a state like Utah, full of "mormons" should be the last on the list.

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Pazooka
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Pazooka »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 4th, 2022, 11:53 am
gkearney wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:50 am Well as I suspected the situation while never good is not as dire as the film presents Utah is not even in the top ten states for rape. However, I will add that the idea of sexual assault is rather vague and dependent upon a number of factors including how one defines it. Further rape is an underreported crime so we have to consider that as well.

All things taken into account I don't believe we have any good source data on this. There is just too many variables in play to be able to make any hard and fast claims one way or the other.
"Don't worry guys, the sexual abuse wasn't THAT bad... not even in the top ten...." SMH... I get it, you want the number to be higher so that it shows a direct correlation to Utah culture, but regardless of how you want to perceive the number, a state like Utah, full of "mormons" should be the last on the list.
Right? Full of people who should be enjoying the spiritual gift of discernment, full of people who are equipped to cast out devils and their evil, and full of people who boast of having “seers,” especially.

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kittycat51
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by kittycat51 »

I'm sorry but when the one gal said, her bishop wouldn't report it to the police...really? If you were sexually assaulted, the FIRST person you should go to is the police. I know that this is happening in the Church. But they can't prosecute...innocent until proven guilty. Then if a court of law proclaims guilty, it's up to the Church to pass judgement as well. It will be on their heads for not doing so, and if that's the case, may judgement be harsh for not.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

kittycat51 wrote: May 4th, 2022, 12:10 pm I'm sorry but when the one gal said, her bishop wouldn't report it to the police...really? If you were sexually assaulted, the FIRST person you should go to is the police. I know that this is happening in the Church. But they can't prosecute...innocent until proven guilty. Then if a court of law proclaims guilty, it's up to the Church to pass judgement as well. It will be on their heads for not doing so, and if that's the case, may judgement be harsh for not.
This is all fine and dandy if you believe that the religious and legal institutions operate separately :)

Mamabear
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Mamabear »

Seriously, this is awful.
You guys, years ago I dealt with a young woman in our ward that was being abused. We couldn’t help her and I still feel so horrible about it. I do question the way the church handled it. It makes me sick to think about it.
Another incident happened years prior with someone else. I suspected abuse at home. It fizzled…no proof. But at the time I found a bishop’s handbook- that wasn’t for public eyes and looked inside because I wanted to look up a question. I found that it said that the church tries to keep families together. It was so long ago it’s fuzzy, and I don’t know what else it said. I think it mentioned something about avoiding police but I can’t be sure. But I remember I was like, what?!!!

Does anyone know what I’m talking about? Have you ever read any old handbook that said that?

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h_p
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by h_p »

kittycat51 wrote: May 4th, 2022, 12:10 pm I'm sorry but when the one gal said, her bishop wouldn't report it to the police...really? If you were sexually assaulted, the FIRST person you should go to is the police. I know that this is happening in the Church. But they can't prosecute...innocent until proven guilty. Then if a court of law proclaims guilty, it's up to the Church to pass judgement as well. It will be on their heads for not doing so, and if that's the case, may judgement be harsh for not.
And especially if you've been raped, there's going to be physical evidence that will be lost if you wait to schedule an appointment with your bishop and then sit back and expect him to do your legwork for you. The bishop isn't law enforcement, folks!

There are definitely things church leaders should be doing (and NOT doing) when it comes to hearing reports of sexual crimes. They should police the church's ranks, and for goodness sake, don't blame the victim. But the church is not another layer of government in between you and the real government.

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oneClimbs
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by oneClimbs »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 1:38 pm This is only the beginning.
All prophesied. See my thread about the Gentiles.
These cases are super hard because there's a lot of he said she said. I have known predators, I have known people that were abused, and I have known people that were falsely accused. You don't want someone's life to be ruined by a false accusation, but you also absolutely don't want a perpetrator to go unpunished, and you absolutely want a victim to have justice and healing.

We had a predator in our midst once. It was gut-wrenching to feel violated as a community and to realize that any of our kids could have easily been subject to his evils, but he was thrown in prison. His victims forgave him, but everyone agreed that prison is where he belonged.

I just can't imagine knowing that abuse happened and trying to cover it up and protect a perpetrator. It just blows my mind, I cannot understand it.

Maybe the difference is that in Utah you have closer-knit communities where more people are intermarried and know each other and they think they can handle it themselves. There seems to be something in the culture like that if I had to guess.

Whatever the issue is, something absolutely needs to change. I don't know how you do that though but it does make me sick.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

oneClimbs wrote: May 4th, 2022, 3:14 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 1:38 pm This is only the beginning.
All prophesied. See my thread about the Gentiles.
These cases are super hard because there's a lot of he said she said. I have known predators, I have known people that were abused, and I have known people that were falsely accused. You don't want someone's life to be ruined by a false accusation, but you also absolutely don't want a perpetrator to go unpunished, and you absolutely want a victim to have justice and healing.

We had a predator in our midst once. It was gut-wrenching to feel violated as a community and to realize that any of our kids could have easily been subject to his evils, but he was thrown in prison. His victims forgave him, but everyone agreed that prison is where he belonged.

I just can't imagine knowing that abuse happened and trying to cover it up and protect a perpetrator. It just blows my mind, I cannot understand it.

Maybe the difference is that in Utah you have closer-knit communities where more people are intermarried and know each other and they think they can handle it themselves. There seems to be something in the culture like that if I had to guess.

Whatever the issue is, something absolutely needs to change. I don't know how you do that though but it does make me sick.
And maybe it's church culture... just maybe.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I have a neighbor who is spending 1 year in jail for touching a girl inappropriately. He was a school teacher. I had another neighbor who lived behind us 20+ years ago. He was the main suspect in the disappearance of two girls and kidnapped another. He would have killed the latter girl as well if she hadn't gotten away while he was at work. He chained her up and had to go to work for the day because his boss said he'd fire him if he didn't show up that day.

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oneClimbs
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by oneClimbs »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 4th, 2022, 3:20 pm
oneClimbs wrote: May 4th, 2022, 3:14 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 1:38 pm This is only the beginning.
All prophesied. See my thread about the Gentiles.
These cases are super hard because there's a lot of he said she said. I have known predators, I have known people that were abused, and I have known people that were falsely accused. You don't want someone's life to be ruined by a false accusation, but you also absolutely don't want a perpetrator to go unpunished, and you absolutely want a victim to have justice and healing.

We had a predator in our midst once. It was gut-wrenching to feel violated as a community and to realize that any of our kids could have easily been subject to his evils, but he was thrown in prison. His victims forgave him, but everyone agreed that prison is where he belonged.

I just can't imagine knowing that abuse happened and trying to cover it up and protect a perpetrator. It just blows my mind, I cannot understand it.

Maybe the difference is that in Utah you have closer-knit communities where more people are intermarried and know each other and they think they can handle it themselves. There seems to be something in the culture like that if I had to guess.

Whatever the issue is, something absolutely needs to change. I don't know how you do that though but it does make me sick.
And maybe it's church culture... just maybe.
I think it is definitely a culture issue and where ANY kind of allowance for that is present in the church it should be rooted out and destroyed.

I’ve never lived in Utah so I don’t know what it’s like there, I’m in Texas and I’ve never seen any crap like this fly down here.

I know that this kind of stuff occurs, and it probably happens here and everywhere to one degree or another because pedos are everywhere.

Shout it from the rooftops and hold everyone accountable all the way to the top if need be. I have no issue with that.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

oneClimbs wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 4th, 2022, 3:20 pm
oneClimbs wrote: May 4th, 2022, 3:14 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 1:38 pm This is only the beginning.
All prophesied. See my thread about the Gentiles.
These cases are super hard because there's a lot of he said she said. I have known predators, I have known people that were abused, and I have known people that were falsely accused. You don't want someone's life to be ruined by a false accusation, but you also absolutely don't want a perpetrator to go unpunished, and you absolutely want a victim to have justice and healing.

We had a predator in our midst once. It was gut-wrenching to feel violated as a community and to realize that any of our kids could have easily been subject to his evils, but he was thrown in prison. His victims forgave him, but everyone agreed that prison is where he belonged.

I just can't imagine knowing that abuse happened and trying to cover it up and protect a perpetrator. It just blows my mind, I cannot understand it.

Maybe the difference is that in Utah you have closer-knit communities where more people are intermarried and know each other and they think they can handle it themselves. There seems to be something in the culture like that if I had to guess.

Whatever the issue is, something absolutely needs to change. I don't know how you do that though but it does make me sick.
And maybe it's church culture... just maybe.
I think it is definitely a culture issue and where ANY kind of allowance for that is present in the church it should be rooted out and destroyed.

I’ve never lived in Utah so I don’t know what it’s like there, I’m in Texas and I’ve never seen any crap like this fly down here.

I know that this kind of stuff occurs, and it probably happens here and everywhere to one degree or another because pedos are everywhere.

Shout it from the rooftops and hold everyone accountable all the way to the top if need be. I have no issue with that.
Seems to be quite prevalent in LDS leadership.

There are a lot of interesting links throughout this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=63832

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

oneClimbs wrote: May 4th, 2022, 9:03 pm I think it is definitely a culture issue and where ANY kind of allowance for that is present in the church it should be rooted out and destroyed.

I’ve never lived in Utah so I don’t know what it’s like there, I’m in Texas and I’ve never seen any crap like this fly down here.

I know that this kind of stuff occurs, and it probably happens here and everywhere to one degree or another because pedos are everywhere.

Shout it from the rooftops and hold everyone accountable all the way to the top if need be. I have no issue with that.
The church has a history of burying this sort of thing. And this abscondment goes all the way to the top. The church recently paid out $250M in the BSA settlement. They've also paid out tens of millions in other sex abuse settlements. You never hear about them because they are settled out of court. You know, gotta protect "the good name of the church."

Check this out. Over 300 cases of sexual abuse where the church was involved, and this is most likely just scraping the surface: https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6 ... 017-06.pdf

Hiphopopotamus
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Hiphopopotamus »

Niemand wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:38 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:37 pm Threads like this tend to get the least amount of traction, but one day this evil will be exposed in all its ugly glory.
Part of me is glad that I do not know all the horror in the world. I am not wishing to hide it but I think it would break my heart.
I suggest staying that way and not seeking to know all the evil that exists. The things I've learned about what the elites around the world are doing completely changed my outlook on life in general (for the worse). It is helpful in that it caused me to be more aware but sometimes I wish I'd never learned it.

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Niemand
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Niemand »

Hiphopopotamus wrote: May 5th, 2022, 12:11 pm
Niemand wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:38 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:37 pm Threads like this tend to get the least amount of traction, but one day this evil will be exposed in all its ugly glory.
Part of me is glad that I do not know all the horror in the world. I am not wishing to hide it but I think it would break my heart.
I suggest staying that way and not seeking to know all the evil that exists. The things I've learned about what the elites around the world are doing completely changed my outlook on life in general (for the worse). It is helpful in that it caused me to be more aware but sometimes I wish I'd never learned it.
I know what you mean. I know some of it, and it does not give me much hope for the human race.

We will be very surprised by some of the revelations we eventually hear about these times.

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Pazooka
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Re: CHEWED GUM (trailer)

Post by Pazooka »

Compare how we treat those who violate women with how the Patriarchs did.

From the Testament of Levi about the defiling of their sister:

5:2 “And he said to me, ‘Levi, to you I have given the blessing of the priesthood until I shall come and dwell in the midst of Israel.”
5:3 “Then the angel led me back to the earth, and gave me a shield and a sword, and said to me, ‘Perform vengeance on Shechem for the sake of Dinah, your sister, and I shall be with you, for the Lord sent me.”
5:4 “At that time I put an end to the sons of Hamor, as is written in the tablets of the fathers.”

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