Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

[Luke]

Is priesthood ordination the same thing as being ordained to be a prophet for the world?

Neither Abinadi nor Samuel were prophets holding keys. At their time, it was Mosiah and Nephi, respectively, who were the prophets at the head of the Lord's church.

What do you mean by “prophets holding keys”? This is meaningless jargon. Define what keys you are exactly referring to, and what this means in actuality.

The keys to act as the Lord's medium.

"by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)."

We are all supposed to be the Lord's medium... we are all supposed to receive revelation...

Show me in the Scriptures or teachings of Joseph Smith where there is a "one man Lord's medium". I'll wait.

That Scripture you quoted there is concerning the sealing power, a topic I've addressed before, and has nothing to do with "one man", because it's evident throughout the Scriptures that there was more than one individual upon whom the keys of sealing were conferred.

As far as the position of being at the head of an institution is concerned, that man is, of course, supposed to get the relevant gifts to act as a prophet. But this doesn't mean he's the only medium on earth. For a Church maybe (because a Church can devise rules pertaining to how they want their organisation to operate), but outside of that Church, their medium-ship would not be binding on anyone.

President Nelson for instance, may be the medium to whom members of the LDS Church are bound to listen to, but for myself and other Fundamentalists outside of the confines of the LDS Church, we have no obligation to pay any attention to his dictates as if they were the word of the Lord to us.

And don't start with the "anything outside of the LDS Church isn't recognised by God" business, because that's demonstrably false, as I can exhaustively prove by the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[InfoWarrior82]

Who was during this time?

????? Do you not read posts before responding to them?

Who was the prophet during Abinadi's calling?

viewtopic.php?p=1261813#p1261813

Mosiah was alive during the reign of King Noah?

[Luke]

Who are we talking about? Again, Samuel and Abinadi were not prophets for the whole world.

Where on earth does this concept of a "prophet for the whole world" come from? Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets. This is just nonsense.

And yet there can be only one.
"there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred"

only-one-there-can-be-only-one.gif

I put the eye rolling face because this is really quite tiresome, and irritating. Does no-one even consider context? That Scripture is clearly in reference to the sealing power, something given to more than one man at a time. It does not say "one man", it says "one".

I wrote this concerning this subject a while back:

viewtopic.php?t=65157

Prophecy is a spiritual gift, and has nothing to do with D&C 132:7.

[Luke]

“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Is this one man holding the sealing power or more than one?

[Sarah]

“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Is this one man holding the sealing power or more than one?

There are different sealing powers. The power to seal up to eternal life is different than sealing people in relationships of husband wife father mother.

[Luke]

“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Is this one man holding the sealing power or more than one?

There are different sealing powers. The power to seal up to eternal life is different than sealing people in relationships of husband wife father mother.

I am aware. The power to seal up to eternal life is the HIGHEST form of sealing power, and therefore contains all other sealing power.

The Patriarchal Priesthood contains the ability to seal one's posterity in marriage, but only the Melchizedek Priesthood contains the power to make a man's calling and election sure.

If you have the FULLNESS of the Priesthood, which is "all that can be given to man on earth", then you can't receive any more. The power to seal a man up to eternal life constitutes the uniqueness of the Fullness.

[Serragon]

God can give His power and authority to whomever He chooses in any manner He chooses. And has done so many times.

I think of the Keys and Authority of the Preisthood in the Church like a machine.

The Lord created a system or mechanism whereby His power and authority could be held and used by men for building His kingdom and blessing the lives of His children. As long as you put in the correct inputs and the same quality ingredients, out would come someone sufficiently prepared to carry upon them the name of Christ and command creation with the same power as that of Christ Himself.

But if you quit putting in the same ingredients, or you reduce their quality, or you tinker with the machine without sufficient knowledge, that machine will start producing somethign that is unnaceptable to the Lord. It may look similar and may even have a stamp of approval on the wrapper, but it will no longer have any of the characteristics that distinguish it from any other man-made product of the same type.

This is the modern church. We have the keys to the machine, but have no understanding of how to properly use it. We have monkeyed with the inputs for decades and continue to claim that by stamping the word Elder on the product it is the same as it was when the machine was created.

We also claim that the existence of this machine means that nothing else is legitimate. But this claim can't be substantiated. The fact that God put in place a system of creating God fearing men who could wield His power does not mean that He cannot give this power to others in ways of His own choosing.

[Artaxerxes]

Neither Abinadi nor Samuel were prophets holding keys. At their time, it was Mosiah and Nephi, respectively, who were the prophets at the head of the Lord's church.

What do you mean by “prophets holding keys”? This is meaningless jargon. Define what keys you are exactly referring to, and what this means in actuality.

The keys to act as the Lord's medium.

"by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)."

We are all supposed to be the Lord's medium... we are all supposed to receive revelation...

Show me in the Scriptures or teachings of Joseph Smith where there is a "one man Lord's medium". I'll wait.

That Scripture you quoted there is concerning the sealing power, a topic I've addressed before, and has nothing to do with "one man", because it's evident throughout the Scriptures that there was more than one individual upon whom the keys of sealing were conferred.

As far as the position of being at the head of an institution is concerned, that man is, of course, supposed to get the relevant gifts to act as a prophet. But this doesn't mean he's the only medium on earth. For a Church maybe (because a Church can devise rules pertaining to how they want their organisation to operate), but outside of that Church, their medium-ship would not be binding on anyone.

President Nelson for instance, may be the medium to whom members of the LDS Church are bound to listen to, but for myself and other Fundamentalists outside of the confines of the LDS Church, we have no obligation to pay any attention to his dictates as if they were the word of the Lord to us.

And don't start with the "anything outside of the LDS Church isn't recognised by God" business, because that's demonstrably false, as I can exhaustively prove by the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Section 132 was talking about both.

Obviously everyone is to receive revelation for themselves and their families. Only one can receive revelation for everyone else.

"But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church."

[Sarah]

“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Is this one man holding the sealing power or more than one?

There are different sealing powers. The power to seal up to eternal life is different than sealing people in relationships of husband wife father mother.

I am aware. The power to seal up to eternal life is the HIGHEST form of sealing power, and therefore contains all other sealing power.

The Patriarchal Priesthood contains the ability to seal one's posterity in marriage, but only the Melchizedek Priesthood contains the power to make a man's calling and election sure.

If you have the FULLNESS of the Priesthood, which is "all that can be given to man on earth", then you can't receive any more. The power to seal a man up to eternal life constitutes the uniqueness of the Fullness.

Joseph said we would learn about the Patriarchal Priesthood in the temple. It is only when we are anointed as Kings and Queens in this Patriarchal/Matriarchal Priesthood that we will be able to bless our eternal posterity with every gift. We must also respect the CHURCH authority God has organized for us on earth, and there is only one true church of God on earth, and one chain of command in his church, with one President who holds all the keys and authority to use those keys.

[Artaxerxes]

????? Do you not read posts before responding to them?

Who was the prophet during Abinadi's calling?

viewtopic.php?p=1261813#p1261813

Mosiah was alive during the reign of King Noah?

Yeah.

Screenshot_20220426-145642.png (63.26 KiB) Viewed 304 times

[Baurak Ale]

What do you mean by “prophets holding keys”? This is meaningless jargon. Define what keys you are exactly referring to, and what this means in actuality.

The keys to act as the Lord's medium.

"by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)."

We are all supposed to be the Lord's medium... we are all supposed to receive revelation...

Show me in the Scriptures or teachings of Joseph Smith where there is a "one man Lord's medium". I'll wait.

That Scripture you quoted there is concerning the sealing power, a topic I've addressed before, and has nothing to do with "one man", because it's evident throughout the Scriptures that there was more than one individual upon whom the keys of sealing were conferred.

As far as the position of being at the head of an institution is concerned, that man is, of course, supposed to get the relevant gifts to act as a prophet. But this doesn't mean he's the only medium on earth. For a Church maybe (because a Church can devise rules pertaining to how they want their organisation to operate), but outside of that Church, their medium-ship would not be binding on anyone.

President Nelson for instance, may be the medium to whom members of the LDS Church are bound to listen to, but for myself and other Fundamentalists outside of the confines of the LDS Church, we have no obligation to pay any attention to his dictates as if they were the word of the Lord to us.

And don't start with the "anything outside of the LDS Church isn't recognised by God" business, because that's demonstrably false, as I can exhaustively prove by the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Section 132 was talking about both.

Obviously everyone is to receive revelation for themselves and their families. Only one can receive revelation for everyone else.

"But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church."

Point of clarification:
Only one can receive commandments and revelations for the church; but anyone can prophecy about anything to anyone by the gift of prophecy (see Moroni 10:13 [note: "all things"] and Acts 21:10 – 14 [Agabus prophesies to the apostle Paul, a person of higher rank]).

[Artaxerxes]

The keys to act as the Lord's medium.

"by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)."

We are all supposed to be the Lord's medium... we are all supposed to receive revelation...

Show me in the Scriptures or teachings of Joseph Smith where there is a "one man Lord's medium". I'll wait.

That Scripture you quoted there is concerning the sealing power, a topic I've addressed before, and has nothing to do with "one man", because it's evident throughout the Scriptures that there was more than one individual upon whom the keys of sealing were conferred.

As far as the position of being at the head of an institution is concerned, that man is, of course, supposed to get the relevant gifts to act as a prophet. But this doesn't mean he's the only medium on earth. For a Church maybe (because a Church can devise rules pertaining to how they want their organisation to operate), but outside of that Church, their medium-ship would not be binding on anyone.

President Nelson for instance, may be the medium to whom members of the LDS Church are bound to listen to, but for myself and other Fundamentalists outside of the confines of the LDS Church, we have no obligation to pay any attention to his dictates as if they were the word of the Lord to us.

And don't start with the "anything outside of the LDS Church isn't recognised by God" business, because that's demonstrably false, as I can exhaustively prove by the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Section 132 was talking about both.

Obviously everyone is to receive revelation for themselves and their families. Only one can receive revelation for everyone else.

"But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church."

Point of clarification:
Only one can receive commandments and revelations for the church; but anyone can prophecy about anything to anyone by the gift of prophecy (see Moroni 10:13 [note: "all things"] and Acts 21:10 – 14 [Agabus prophesies to the apostle Paul, a person of higher rank]).

Good point.

[InfoWarrior82]

Who was the prophet during Abinadi's calling?

viewtopic.php?p=1261813#p1261813

Mosiah was alive during the reign of King Noah?

Yeah.

Screenshot_20220426-145642.png

I think you may be looking at that wrong.

[Luke]

“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Is this one man holding the sealing power or more than one?

There are different sealing powers. The power to seal up to eternal life is different than sealing people in relationships of husband wife father mother.

I am aware. The power to seal up to eternal life is the HIGHEST form of sealing power, and therefore contains all other sealing power.

The Patriarchal Priesthood contains the ability to seal one's posterity in marriage, but only the Melchizedek Priesthood contains the power to make a man's calling and election sure.

If you have the FULLNESS of the Priesthood, which is "all that can be given to man on earth", then you can't receive any more. The power to seal a man up to eternal life constitutes the uniqueness of the Fullness.

Joseph said we would learn about the Patriarchal Priesthood in the temple. It is only when we are anointed as Kings and Queens in this Patriarchal/Matriarchal Priesthood that we will be able to bless our eternal posterity with every gift. We must also respect the CHURCH authority God has organized for us on earth, and there is only one true church of God on earth, and one chain of command in his church, with one President who holds all the keys and authority to use those keys.

1. The Melchizedek Priesthood is above the Patriarchal Priesthood. That much is clear from Joseph's discourse on 27 August 1843.

2. I agree, in the sense that one must respect the organisation to which he belongs, and work within its authority. I do not believe, however, that the LDS Church is the "only true church". I believe there are other organisations who possess Priesthood, like the AUB. I believe that that organisation too has devised rules of engagement, and the members of such are bound to accept the chain of command that exists there in like manner. Outside of that organisation, though, the leaders have no jurisdiction over anyone - the same goes for the leaders of the LDS Church.

[Luke]

Section 132 was talking about both.

You are clearly wrong, but it doesn't seem like your mind is open to be changed, so I will go no further with this conversation.

[Artaxerxes]

viewtopic.php?p=1261813#p1261813

Mosiah was alive during the reign of King Noah?

Yeah.

Screenshot_20220426-145642.png

I think you may be looking at that wrong.

..... No?

Okay, who do you think was the king/prophet during the time of Noah? If you go up about an inch on that little chart, who's name is there during the time of King Noah? The one before King Benjamin was named......

[InfoWarrior82]

Mosiah was alive during the reign of King Noah?

Yeah.

Screenshot_20220426-145642.png

I think you may be looking at that wrong.

..... No?

Okay, who do you think was the king/prophet during the time of Noah? If you go up about an inch on that little chart, who's name is there during the time of King Noah? The one before King Benjamin was named......

The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?

[Sarah]

There are different sealing powers. The power to seal up to eternal life is different than sealing people in relationships of husband wife father mother.

I am aware. The power to seal up to eternal life is the HIGHEST form of sealing power, and therefore contains all other sealing power.

The Patriarchal Priesthood contains the ability to seal one's posterity in marriage, but only the Melchizedek Priesthood contains the power to make a man's calling and election sure.

If you have the FULLNESS of the Priesthood, which is "all that can be given to man on earth", then you can't receive any more. The power to seal a man up to eternal life constitutes the uniqueness of the Fullness.

Joseph said we would learn about the Patriarchal Priesthood in the temple. It is only when we are anointed as Kings and Queens in this Patriarchal/Matriarchal Priesthood that we will be able to bless our eternal posterity with every gift. We must also respect the CHURCH authority God has organized for us on earth, and there is only one true church of God on earth, and one chain of command in his church, with one President who holds all the keys and authority to use those keys.

1. The Melchizedek Priesthood is above the Patriarchal Priesthood. That much is clear from Joseph's discourse on 27 August 1843.

2. I agree, in the sense that one must respect the organisation to which he belongs, and work within its authority. I do not believe, however, that the LDS Church is the "only true church". I believe there are other organisations who possess Priesthood, like the AUB. I believe that that organisation too has devised rules of engagement, and the members of such are bound to accept the chain of command that exists there in like manner. Outside of that organisation, though, the leaders have no jurisdiction over anyone - the same goes for the leaders of the LDS Church.

I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.

[CuriousThinker]

Who are we talking about? Again, Samuel and Abinadi were not prophets for the whole world.

Where on earth does this concept of a "prophet for the whole world" come from? Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets. This is just nonsense.

And yet there can be only one.
"there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred"

only-one-there-can-be-only-one.gif

When Lehi came from Jerusalem, wasn't the 'head' prophet Jeremiah and he would hold the keys? If we follow your line of thinking, would there be temples then since only Jeremiah could pass on the sealing power? How were there temples in the Americas? Or, can Lehi pass that to Nephi and on and on so more than one does hold it?

[Luke]

I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.

Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.

[Artaxerxes]

Section 132 was talking about both.

You are clearly wrong, but it doesn't seem like your mind is open to be changed, so I will go no further with this conversation.

But it isn't just Section 132. Section 28 teaches the same thing.

[Luke]

Section 132 was talking about both.

You are clearly wrong, but it doesn't seem like your mind is open to be changed, so I will go no further with this conversation.

But it isn't just Section 132. Section 28 teaches the same thing.

Where?

[Artaxerxes]

Yeah.

Screenshot_20220426-145642.png

I think you may be looking at that wrong.

..... No?

Okay, who do you think was the king/prophet during the time of Noah? If you go up about an inch on that little chart, who's name is there during the time of King Noah? The one before King Benjamin was named......

The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?

Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.

[Artaxerxes]

Section 132 was talking about both.

You are clearly wrong, but it doesn't seem like your mind is open to be changed, so I will go no further with this conversation.

But it isn't just Section 132. Section 28 teaches the same thing.

Where?

In the verses that you cut off when you quoted my response.

viewtopic.php?p=1261858#p1261858

[Artaxerxes]

Who are we talking about? Again, Samuel and Abinadi were not prophets for the whole world.

Where on earth does this concept of a "prophet for the whole world" come from? Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets. This is just nonsense.

And yet there can be only one.
"there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred"

only-one-there-can-be-only-one.gif

When Lehi came from Jerusalem, wasn't the 'head' prophet Jeremiah and he would hold the keys? If we follow your line of thinking, would there be temples then since only Jeremiah could pass on the sealing power? How were there temples in the Americas? Or, can Lehi pass that to Nephi and on and on so more than one does hold it?

I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.