Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
JuneBug12000
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2066

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Genesis 14 JST
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.

26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.


30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.

33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.

34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;

35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.

36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

This small passage answers questions about not only the Higher Priesthood, but also tithing.

So grateful for clarity on these important topics.
Last edited by JuneBug12000 on April 26th, 2022, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6705

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Sarah »

Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:28 pm I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.
Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.
Believers are not the only part of a church organization. There are offices in the priesthood. You're basically reiterating what every evangelical/mainstream church says, that all you need is to believe and you get the priesthood, that all believers have the priesthood, that all their baptisms are valid, etc. What about the legacy of Joseph Smith and his teachings about priesthood authority, baptism and temple ordinances? What about the many stories of people coming beyond the veil to ask for their temple work to be done?

JuneBug12000
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2066

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:45 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:28 pm I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.
Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.
Believers are not the only part of a church organization. There are offices in the priesthood. You're basically reiterating what every evangelical/mainstream church says, that all you need is to believe and you get the priesthood, that all believers have the priesthood, that all their baptisms are valid, etc. What about the legacy of Joseph Smith and his teachings about priesthood authority, baptism and temple ordinances? What about the many stories of people coming beyond the veil to ask for their temple work to be done?
I don't have answers to these things, even though I use to think I did.

Those preachers are on solid ground when it comes to the teachings of the Bible, the only scripture they have.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6705

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Sarah »

JuneBug12000 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:47 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:45 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:28 pm I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.
Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.
Believers are not the only part of a church organization. There are offices in the priesthood. You're basically reiterating what every evangelical/mainstream church says, that all you need is to believe and you get the priesthood, that all believers have the priesthood, that all their baptisms are valid, etc. What about the legacy of Joseph Smith and his teachings about priesthood authority, baptism and temple ordinances? What about the many stories of people coming beyond the veil to ask for their temple work to be done?
I don't have answers to these things, even though I use to think I did.

Those preachers are on solid ground when it comes to the teachings of the Bible, the only scripture they have.
Yes, many have a fantastic knowledge of what's in the Bible.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by John Tavner »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:45 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:28 pm I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.
Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.
Believers are not the only part of a church organization. There are offices in the priesthood. You're basically reiterating what every evangelical/mainstream church says, that all you need is to believe and you get the priesthood, that all believers have the priesthood, that all their baptisms are valid, etc. What about the legacy of Joseph Smith and his teachings about priesthood authority, baptism and temple ordinances? What about the many stories of people coming beyond the veil to ask for their temple work to be done?
Did Joseph teach that legacy? Or was it those who came afterwards, claiming to sit in Joseph's seat? Were those who came to others from "beyond the veil" really from God? Were they deceiving spirits? Are offices in the preisthood given by man or God? Can God call man? Or must it be man? Has God given His power unto man?

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (Joseph Smith, TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

CuriousThinker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1187

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by CuriousThinker »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 3:05 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 3:02 pm

Where on earth does this concept of a "prophet for the whole world" come from? Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets. This is just nonsense.
And yet there can be only one.
"there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred"

only-one-there-can-be-only-one.gif
When Lehi came from Jerusalem, wasn't the 'head' prophet Jeremiah and he would hold the keys? If we follow your line of thinking, would there be temples then since only Jeremiah could pass on the sealing power? How were there temples in the Americas? Or, can Lehi pass that to Nephi and on and on so more than one does hold it?
I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
How would a 'lesser' prophet have sealing keys instead of the 'greater' prophet? How did Lehi get those keys then if only he had them?

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:07 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:04 pm



I think you may be looking at that wrong.
..... No?

Okay, who do you think was the king/prophet during the time of Noah? If you go up about an inch on that little chart, who's name is there during the time of King Noah? The one before King Benjamin was named......

The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?
Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
Last edited by InfoWarrior82 on April 26th, 2022, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gadianton Slayer
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6551
Location: A Sound Mind

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

John Tavner wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:11 pm Has God given His power unto man?
Hehe. Straight out of 2 Nephi.
  • 3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—
    4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.
    5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

CuriousThinker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1187

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by CuriousThinker »

Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:22 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:11 pm Has God given His power unto man?
Hehe. Straight out of 2 Nephi.
  • 3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—
    4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.
    5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

Yikes.

And...

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (Joseph Smith, TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)
The sealing power is not the same thing as the Melchizedek priesthood

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:07 pm

..... No?

Okay, who do you think was the king/prophet during the time of Noah? If you go up about an inch on that little chart, who's name is there during the time of King Noah? The one before King Benjamin was named......

The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?
Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:45 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:28 pm I thought the BofM spoke of only one church of Christ.
Yes... the believers.

I am fine with the idea that there can be many organisations composed of the believers, but the believers themselves are the church.
Believers are not the only part of a church organization. There are offices in the priesthood. You're basically reiterating what every evangelical/mainstream church says, that all you need is to believe and you get the priesthood, that all believers have the priesthood, that all their baptisms are valid, etc. What about the legacy of Joseph Smith and his teachings about priesthood authority, baptism and temple ordinances? What about the many stories of people coming beyond the veil to ask for their temple work to be done?
What on earth are you talking about?

I said that the term "church" = the term "believers". They are one and the same.

You make reference to the term "church" through the lens of the LDS narrative. Obviously, the word "church" can be used in the sense of an organisation, for instance "the Catholic Church". But when Jesus talks of "His church", He means His believers. See D&C 10:67, for example.

Offices of the Priesthood can exist outside of an organisation. The offices of Priest and Elder existed before 6 April 1830. This is a fact. There are then also offices in the Church such as Church President, Twelve Apostles, High Council, etc. which don't carry any special Priesthood power with them (as they "grow out of" the offices of the Priesthood, as D&C 107 states). For example, Joseph Smith stated that High Priests have the exact same amount of Priesthood as the Church President does, but they have different responsibilities in the Church organisation.

As for you claiming that I believe in the "Priesthood of all believers" doctrine. I don't. I've never said anything like that in my life. I said that God will grant unto anyone authority by revelation. The quotes in the OP make that pretty clear. Both Joseph Smith and John Taylor stated that you can have authority by revelation or by ordination, which includes through a regular organised Priesthood. Joseph Smith also said that he did not believe that it was his organisation alone that was accepted by God. He said to John Taylor that if he could find a people who had the doctrines of Christ, he had no need to baptise them.

People are at different levels of understanding. This is a self-evident fact. God gave Joseph Smith the understanding of work for the dead, setting him higher than others in understanding. We now have that understanding, and it is our job to carry out that work (and I believe that numerous groups and individuals have that authority). But it doesn't mean that those not of this understanding are any less accepted by God. For it is line upon line, precept upon precept.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (Joseph Smith, TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)
The sealing power is not the same thing as the Melchizedek priesthood
Yes it is!

Melchizedek Priesthood = all power that can be given to men on earth.

That includes all sealing power.

No other Priesthood includes all sealing power. Only the Melchizedek Priesthood. See TPJS 166-167, and TPJS 322.

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:20 pm


The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?
Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:20 pm


The people of King Mosiah were separate from the timeline of Zeniff, which sprouted Alma and his sons. Zeniff's son was Noah... the wicked King Noah. They had the priesthood, but apostatized and required a new prophet. Abinadi. How did he receive His authority outside the church structure at the time?

Furthermore, where did Alma the elder receive his authority to do all the things he did in the Lord's name?
Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.
Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. (Brigham Young, JD 1:133, 6 April 1853)

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1415

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (Joseph Smith, TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)
The sealing power is not the same thing as the Melchizedek priesthood
“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:29 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm

Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?
As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

CuriousThinker wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:23 pm Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?
That is a point which provides a little problem for people to solve. Unfortunately, they cannot solve that problem without overthrowing the LDS Church's Priesthood claims as far as the one man doctrine is concerned.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:30 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:43 pm

Okay. We're making progress. So we both agree that Mosiah was alive during the time of King Noah.

As to your other questions, as is usually the case, I already answered them. Abinadi and even Alma would have been ordained under Mosiah before they left on their foolish journey.


Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.
Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. (Brigham Young, JD 1:133, 6 April 1853)
And?

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:30 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Luke wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 4:44 pm I don't have any reason to think Jeremiah had the sealing keys.
All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (Joseph Smith, TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)
The sealing power is not the same thing as the Melchizedek priesthood
“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the High priesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the High priesthood.” (Minute Book 2, pg. 11, 25 October 1831, JSP)
The Melchizedek priesthood does have the power to seal. But not everyone with the Melchizedek priesthood has the keys to seal. See Section 132.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:31 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:29 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:20 pm



Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?
"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?
As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.
This notion that he only became a prophet after someone else died is utterly absurd and simply contrary to the entirety of the Standard Works.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Artaxerxes »

CuriousThinker wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:23 pm Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?
Where does it say that?

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 26th, 2022, 5:33 pm The Melchizedek priesthood does have the power to seal. But not everyone with the Melchizedek priesthood has the keys to seal. See Section 132.
Completely and utterly contradictory.

The LDS Church can devise rules stating that they do not want anyone but the President and those he authorises to use the sealing keys... but outside of the LDS Church, any man with the Melchizedek Priesthood can use those keys as he pleases (providing he is being directed by revelation, which is necessary in the exercising of the sealing power).

Post Reply