Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

[Luke]

Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?

Where does it say that?

Helaman 10
7 Behold, I give unto you [Nephi] power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Artaxerxes]

Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?

Where does it say that?

Helaman 10
7 Behold, I give unto you [Nephi] power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Screenshot_20220426-163632.png (317.41 KiB) Viewed 192 times

[Artaxerxes]

The Melchizedek priesthood does have the power to seal. But not everyone with the Melchizedek priesthood has the keys to seal. See Section 132.

Completely and utterly contradictory.

The LDS Church can devise rules stating that they do not want anyone but the President and those he authorises to use the sealing keys... but outside of the LDS Church, any man with the Melchizedek Priesthood can use those keys as he pleases (providing he is being directed by revelation, which is necessary in the exercising of the sealing power).

That is not what it means. It means lots of people can have the Melchizedek Priesthood, but only one can have the keys that come under that priesthood. I have no idea where this notion of people outside the church came from.

[InfoWarrior82]

Yes, their lifetimes overlapped. However, these two groups of people lived in completely separate lands and were ruled by their own kings. The people of Nephi (Zeniff) had the priesthood and set up their own kingdom among the Lamanites. Alma The Elder, and Younger, and sons, etc. were prophets during the time of Benjamin and Mosiah II. Where did Abinadi get the priesthood keys to be a prophet? Does one need priesthood keys to be a prophet?

"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?

As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.

Alma and King Benjamin tag-teaming, eh?

[Artaxerxes]

"Completely separate lands" in this case being a couple days' walk apart.

Neither Almas were prophets during the time of any prophet-king. Alma the Elder was appointed head of the church by Mosiah when he gave up his role.

I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have been answered today, but to state again, Abinadi did not have keys. Once again, Mosiah was the prophet, not Abinadi.

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?

As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.

Alma and King Benjamin tag-teaming, eh?

I can only tell you what the scriptures say:
19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

[Luke]

Didn't Nephi have the sealing power after Christ came? Wouldn't that be contemporaneous with Peter having it? How is that possible if only 1 prophet can have those keys at a time?

Where does it say that?

Helaman 10
7 Behold, I give unto you [Nephi] power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Screenshot_20220426-163632.png

Yeah, and he was alive AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

[Artaxerxes]

Where does it say that?

Helaman 10
7 Behold, I give unto you [Nephi] power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Screenshot_20220426-163632.png

Yeah, and he was alive AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

No. He was translated in 1AD.

[Luke]

The Melchizedek priesthood does have the power to seal. But not everyone with the Melchizedek priesthood has the keys to seal. See Section 132.

Completely and utterly contradictory.

The LDS Church can devise rules stating that they do not want anyone but the President and those he authorises to use the sealing keys... but outside of the LDS Church, any man with the Melchizedek Priesthood can use those keys as he pleases (providing he is being directed by revelation, which is necessary in the exercising of the sealing power).

That is not what it means. It means lots of people can have the Melchizedek Priesthood, but only one can have the keys that come under that priesthood. I have no idea where this notion of people outside the church came from.

That is so obviously a nonsense statement.

If you have the Melchizedek Priesthood... you have the Melchizedek Priesthood. There's no keys above the Melchizedek Priesthood, except the keys heavenly beings hold.

As for people outside the church, this is simply a self-evident notion supported by the words of Joseph Smith.

• D&C 68
  12 And of as many as the Father shall bear record, to you shall be given power to seal them up unto eternal life. Amen.

More than one person using the sealing keys. This isn't a mystery.

[Luke]

Helaman 10
7 Behold, I give unto you [Nephi] power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Screenshot_20220426-163632.png

Yeah, and he was alive AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

No. He was translated in 1AD.

AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi . . . (3 Nephi 12:1)

He was alive after the resurrection of Christ. Contemporary with Peter, who also held the sealing keys. Give up on your dogma!

[Artaxerxes]

The Melchizedek priesthood does have the power to seal. But not everyone with the Melchizedek priesthood has the keys to seal. See Section 132.

Completely and utterly contradictory.

The LDS Church can devise rules stating that they do not want anyone but the President and those he authorises to use the sealing keys... but outside of the LDS Church, any man with the Melchizedek Priesthood can use those keys as he pleases (providing he is being directed by revelation, which is necessary in the exercising of the sealing power).

That is not what it means. It means lots of people can have the Melchizedek Priesthood, but only one can have the keys that come under that priesthood. I have no idea where this notion of people outside the church came from.

That is so obviously a nonsense statement.

If you have the Melchizedek Priesthood... you have the Melchizedek Priesthood. There's no keys above the Melchizedek Priesthood, except the keys heavenly beings hold.

As for people outside the church, this is simply a self-evident notion supported by the words of Joseph Smith.

• D&C 68
  12 And of as many as the Father shall bear record, to you shall be given power to seal them up unto eternal life. Amen.

More than one person using the sealing keys. This isn't a mystery.

So because a high priest can be a bishop, everyone who is a high priest is a bishop?

And what does 132 mean about there being only one?

[Luke]

Completely and utterly contradictory.

The LDS Church can devise rules stating that they do not want anyone but the President and those he authorises to use the sealing keys... but outside of the LDS Church, any man with the Melchizedek Priesthood can use those keys as he pleases (providing he is being directed by revelation, which is necessary in the exercising of the sealing power).

That is not what it means. It means lots of people can have the Melchizedek Priesthood, but only one can have the keys that come under that priesthood. I have no idea where this notion of people outside the church came from.

That is so obviously a nonsense statement.

If you have the Melchizedek Priesthood... you have the Melchizedek Priesthood. There's no keys above the Melchizedek Priesthood, except the keys heavenly beings hold.

As for people outside the church, this is simply a self-evident notion supported by the words of Joseph Smith.

• D&C 68
  12 And of as many as the Father shall bear record, to you shall be given power to seal them up unto eternal life. Amen.

More than one person using the sealing keys. This isn't a mystery.

So because a high priest can be a bishop, everyone who is a high priest is a bishop?

And what does 132 mean about there being only one?

In the sense that the High Priesthood encompasses all lesser authority, yes, all High Priests are Bishops, although only a few are specifically designated to act in that capacity.

As for what 132 says, I addressed that in the link I sent before. Here:

viewtopic.php?t=65157

[Artaxerxes]

Screenshot_20220426-163632.png

Yeah, and he was alive AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

No. He was translated in 1AD.

AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi . . . (3 Nephi 12:1)

He was alive after the resurrection of Christ. Contemporary with Peter, who also held the sealing keys. Give up on your dogma!

Lol! You know that there was more than one Nephi, right? You're getting them mixed up.

You should read your BoM more and focus on your dogma less.

[Luke]

Yeah, and he was alive AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

No. He was translated in 1AD.

AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi . . . (3 Nephi 12:1)

He was alive after the resurrection of Christ. Contemporary with Peter, who also held the sealing keys. Give up on your dogma!

Lol! You know that there was more than one Nephi, right? You're getting them mixed up.

You should read your BoM more and focus on your dogma less.

My dogma? All I've done is quote the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your arguments, save a few wrested Scriptures, the context of which has nothing to do with your points.

As for Nephi: you are correct that they were two different Nephis, that I will concede. But it would seem that that salient fact supports my argument more - i.e. he disappeared out of the land and went somewhere else, still holding all the keys he already held - contemporary with Peter.

[Artaxerxes]

No. He was translated in 1AD.

AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi . . . (3 Nephi 12:1)

He was alive after the resurrection of Christ. Contemporary with Peter, who also held the sealing keys. Give up on your dogma!

Lol! You know that there was more than one Nephi, right? You're getting them mixed up.

You should read your BoM more and focus on your dogma less.

My dogma? All I've done is quote the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your arguments, save a few wrested Scriptures, the context of which has nothing to do with your points.

As for Nephi: you are correct that they were two different Nephis, that I will concede. But it would seem that that salient fact supports my argument more - i.e. he disappeared out of the land and went somewhere else, still holding all the keys he already held - contemporary with Peter.

No. Section 132 talks of people on the earth. Implicit in that caveat is the exemption of translated brings who exist in a different sphere

[Luke]

AND it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi . . . (3 Nephi 12:1)

He was alive after the resurrection of Christ. Contemporary with Peter, who also held the sealing keys. Give up on your dogma!

Lol! You know that there was more than one Nephi, right? You're getting them mixed up.

You should read your BoM more and focus on your dogma less.

My dogma? All I've done is quote the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your arguments, save a few wrested Scriptures, the context of which has nothing to do with your points.

As for Nephi: you are correct that they were two different Nephis, that I will concede. But it would seem that that salient fact supports my argument more - i.e. he disappeared out of the land and went somewhere else, still holding all the keys he already held - contemporary with Peter.

No. Section 132 talks of people on the earth. Implicit in that caveat is the exemption of translated brings who exist in a different sphere

1. Translated beings don't necessarily exist in a different sphere.

2. The BoM doesn't say whether Nephi was translated or not, in fact, it says that no-one knows what happened to him.

3. My point would still stand, given that Nephi (of Helaman 10) was contemporary with the prophets in Jerusalem, whom, according to Joseph Smith, all had the sealing power.

[Artaxerxes]

Lol! You know that there was more than one Nephi, right? You're getting them mixed up.

You should read your BoM more and focus on your dogma less.

My dogma? All I've done is quote the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your arguments, save a few wrested Scriptures, the context of which has nothing to do with your points.

As for Nephi: you are correct that they were two different Nephis, that I will concede. But it would seem that that salient fact supports my argument more - i.e. he disappeared out of the land and went somewhere else, still holding all the keys he already held - contemporary with Peter.

No. Section 132 talks of people on the earth. Implicit in that caveat is the exemption of translated brings who exist in a different sphere

1. Translated beings don't necessarily exist in a different sphere.

2. The BoM doesn't say whether Nephi was translated or not, in fact, it says that no-one knows what happened to him.

3. My point would still stand, given that Nephi (of Helaman 10) was contemporary with the prophets in Jerusalem, whom, according to Joseph Smith, all had the sealing power.

No, which you made up that he said.

Which prophets was he contemporaneous with?

[Luke]

No, which you made up that he said.

Show me how I made that up. Again, I'll give you the quotation:

• All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

Melchizedek Priesthood has all power, including the power unique to it to seal up to eternal life.

Which prophets was he contemporaneous with?

All the ones from 21 BC onwards.

[Artaxerxes]

No, which you made up that he said.

Show me how I made that up. Again, I'll give you the quotation:

• All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

Melchizedek Priesthood has all power, including the power unique to it to seal up to eternal life.

Which prophets was he contemporaneous with?

All the ones from 21 BC onwards.

You made up the idea that having the Melchizedek priesthood means being authorized to use all parts of it.

Which prophets were around in 21 bc and onwards?

[Luke]

No, which you made up that he said.

Show me how I made that up. Again, I'll give you the quotation:

• All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

Melchizedek Priesthood has all power, including the power unique to it to seal up to eternal life.

Which prophets was he contemporaneous with?

All the ones from 21 BC onwards.

You made up the idea that having the Melchizedek priesthood means being authorized to use all parts of it.

Which prophets were around in 21 bc and onwards?

I didn't make it up. I directed you to read TPJS 166-167 and TPJS 322 to see for yourself.

Melchizedek Priesthood is all authority which can be given to men on earth. ALL authority. All this "being authorised to use it" is nonsense. God can authorise who He likes.

Dead Sea Scrolls make some interesting statements on that score. In fact, getting even deeper into that, one discovers that they had the sealing power, as they performed Temple ordinances such as marriage sealing. This was in the years leading up to Christ's birth and mission.

[Artaxerxes]

No, which you made up that he said.

Show me how I made that up. Again, I'll give you the quotation:

• All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

Melchizedek Priesthood has all power, including the power unique to it to seal up to eternal life.

Which prophets was he contemporaneous with?

All the ones from 21 BC onwards.

You made up the idea that having the Melchizedek priesthood means being authorized to use all parts of it.

Which prophets were around in 21 bc and onwards?

I didn't make it up. I directed you to read TPJS 166-167 and TPJS 322 to see for yourself.

Melchizedek Priesthood is all authority which can be given to men on earth. ALL authority. All this "being authorised to use it" is nonsense. God can authorise who He likes.

Dead Sea Scrolls make some interesting statements on that score. In fact, getting even deeper into that, one discovers that they had the sealing power, as they performed Temple ordinances such as marriage sealing. This was in the years leading up to Christ's birth and mission.

I don't dispute what Joseph said. I dispute how you are choosing to twist them.

[InfoWarrior82]

Was Alma a prophet then? Or his son?

As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.

Alma and King Benjamin tag-teaming, eh?

I can only tell you what the scriptures say:
19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

Abinadi and Alma the Elder were both.. non prophets? I'm confused. Where they "mini-prophets" ?

[Luke]

Here is another interesting one. I will give both the KJV and NLT translation:

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (Galatians 1:1)

This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead. (NLT Galatians 1:1)

[Luke]

Show me how I made that up. Again, I'll give you the quotation:

• All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself. (TPJS 181, 5 January 1841)

Melchizedek Priesthood has all power, including the power unique to it to seal up to eternal life.


All the ones from 21 BC onwards.

You made up the idea that having the Melchizedek priesthood means being authorized to use all parts of it.

Which prophets were around in 21 bc and onwards?

I didn't make it up. I directed you to read TPJS 166-167 and TPJS 322 to see for yourself.

Melchizedek Priesthood is all authority which can be given to men on earth. ALL authority. All this "being authorised to use it" is nonsense. God can authorise who He likes.

Dead Sea Scrolls make some interesting statements on that score. In fact, getting even deeper into that, one discovers that they had the sealing power, as they performed Temple ordinances such as marriage sealing. This was in the years leading up to Christ's birth and mission.

I don't dispute what Joseph said. I dispute how you are choosing to twist them.

Explain to me how I am twisting them.

[Artaxerxes]

As stated above, Alma was a prophet after Mosiah.

Alma and King Benjamin tag-teaming, eh?

I can only tell you what the scriptures say:
19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

Abinadi and Alma the Elder were both.. non prophets? I'm confused. Where they "mini-prophets" ?

I'm not sure what part of "Alma was a prophet after Mosiah" you're misunderstanding. I'll quote the passage again:
19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

Mosiah was the prophet during the time of Abinadi, not Abinadi.

[Artaxerxes]

You made up the idea that having the Melchizedek priesthood means being authorized to use all parts of it.

Which prophets were around in 21 bc and onwards?

I didn't make it up. I directed you to read TPJS 166-167 and TPJS 322 to see for yourself.

Melchizedek Priesthood is all authority which can be given to men on earth. ALL authority. All this "being authorised to use it" is nonsense. God can authorise who He likes.

Dead Sea Scrolls make some interesting statements on that score. In fact, getting even deeper into that, one discovers that they had the sealing power, as they performed Temple ordinances such as marriage sealing. This was in the years leading up to Christ's birth and mission.

I don't dispute what Joseph said. I dispute how you are choosing to twist them.

Explain to me how I am twisting them.

Having the Melchizedek Priesthood does not authorize one to do all things the priesthood can do. There are still keys that exist under the umbrella of the priesthood, but separate from it.