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Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 15th, 2009, 10:13 pm
by larsenb
MercynGrace wrote: When Capt. Moroni attacked the King-men for their unwillingness to wage war against the Lamanites, his act was pre-emptive. His was an "if you aren't for us, you're against us" attitude and he coerced his countrymen at the tip of a blade to either acquiesce to his point of view or die. (Alma 51)

Even before that civill war, Capt. Moroni marched on Amalickiah and his followers even though they had committed no overt act of aggression. Amalickiah and his followers dissented from their government and were leaving when Capt. Moroni decided that he'd better make sure they didn't hook up with the Lamanites. Again he either coerced or killed the dissenters. (Alma 46)

These actions were clearly preemptive and yet Capt. Moroni is lauded as a righteous man than others should emulate. (Alma 48)

Do you have any quotes explaining Capt. Moroni's actions or differentiating between what he did and any other kind of preemptive military action? I am not asking about the Iraq war but simply about the policy issue. If preemptive war is categorically wrong, what do you make of Capt, Moroni's behavior in these instances? And where can I find words of the prophets specifically addressing this issue.
You have to remember that Amalakiah was the original Kingman. He was trying to subvert Nephite liberty under the judges to set himself up as king. He was confronted by those standing for liberty, and decided to take off to link up with Lamanites. Moroni went after him to prevent this linkage, if possible.

This situation is NOT the type of 'preemptive warfare' the Book of Mormon, in numerous passages (also in D&C) roundly condemns.

Furthermore, in Alma 51, the local kingmen rise up again, threatening to destroy the judgeship system of government at the very time when Lamanite armies under Amalakiah are coming into Nephite territory. Very dangerous INTERNAL situation in time of defending against an external enemy coming INTO your own country. He confronts them again and according to Alma 51:18, "they did pull down their pride and their nobility, " (now this is important part) " insomuch as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth."

This is NOT preemptive warfare. This is fighting internal enemies trying to pull down your country, destroy the freedoms of your fellow citizens, at the very same time the country is being internally attacked by the chief Kingman, Amalakiah. Notice, only those who picked up weapons were killed.

The preemptive warfare condemned in the Book of Mormon and D&C is where you go up into the lands of a separate, distinct people to attack them. There are NUMEROUS passages in the BofM and D&C that outline this principle. I've collected most of them and can send them to you later. Right now, I've got to hit the hay.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 15th, 2009, 10:19 pm
by creator
I don't think that anyone on this forum would disagree with the 9 principles and 12 values or the books he recommended (The Real George Washington and The Five Thousand Year Leap)...

However, as Jnewby stated, the jury is still out on Glenn Beck. While I could unite with him on those things stated above, I take the side of W. Cleon Skousen, Ezra Taft Benson, and others that I believe are more inspired, on the subject of foreign policy and war.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 12:10 am
by Rosabella
How is this for an idea? :idea:

Beck is a Mormon; he is getting a huge following of non-Mormons that love his ideas (which are based on Mormon doctrines) they are very passionate about our country and are standing up for the constitution what happens if they start converting to our faith? We now have an influx of the most passionate Americans for the Constitution the Church has ever seen. They would wake up the sleeping members of our Church (converts are full of fire) :wink: They then could fulfill the prophecy of the Constitution hanging by a thread and the Elders saving in it on the brink.

So I say, hold off judgments, we may see investigators coming to this site for it is called LDS Conservative, LDS Freeman and LDS Freedom Forum. I think those names will attract a lot of hits now with what Beck is doing. It would be really sad to see them turned off of the Church based on some anti-Beck post along with some other scary ones that get posted here. We may see an influx of people visiting this site….I truly would not be surprised. When you do searches on line on subjects that we talk about this site can be found on the first page of the search. How do you guys think I found this site?

Oh by the way, if you guys visit Beck site http://www.The912Project.com there are already all kinds of people posting about the conspiracy in quite a bit of detail. So why are the LDS members that know the most about the NWO snubbing their nose at a great opportunity to share what we know? It must be done tactfully and not by force like is sometimes is done here or we will ruin the whole idea. We should be there too, telling them what we know. If you want to teach here is a platform to teach the masses. I am there and posting stuff. But I am careful to be nice and thoughtful not condescending and mean spirited. Glenn has asked that everyone not fight but unite. Say what you think but do not attack. That is not the way he will allow this site to operate. It is a site for unification and educations and working together for our common good of our country.

So what do you say :?:

Come join me,

Love Beck

...opps... I mean love Bella :lol:


Dan, The idea that I might be Beck was really cute, I laughed so hard...that was a good one ! :lol:

But who knows may be I am? :shock: There is only one other person here that know the answer to that mystery.... :D And you know who you are :wink: LOL

Oh by the way you need to stay on this site too :wink: Don't convert over to Becks site! Just vistit LOL

If you are worried about being tracked you already are here.... :shock: :wink:

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 2:28 am
by lennyharp
Bella said..."We should be there too, telling them what we know. If you want to teach here is a platform to teach the masses. I am there and posting stuff. But I am careful to be nice and thoughtful not condescending and mean spirited. Glenn has asked that everyone not fight but unite. Say what you think but do not attack. That is not the way he will allow this site to operate. It is a site for unification and educations and working together for our common good of our country. "
The 912 Project forum is going to be big. We do need to give input in a not Prideful way and help to build up the core group of people who love God and Constitution and understand it's workings well enough to help make things restored to the inspired way. To do that we need to be studying all the best materials available on how government works. The sharing then becomes much easier, just as missionary work works better when daily scripture study is going on.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 6:36 am
by MercynGrace
LDSConservative wrote:
MercynGrace wrote:Do you have any quotes explaining Capt. Moroni's actions or differentiating between what he did and any other kind of preemptive military action? I am not asking about the Iraq war but simply about the policy issue. If preemptive war is categorically wrong, what do you make of Capt, Moroni's behavior in these instances? And where can I find words of the prophets specifically addressing this issue.
MercynGrace, I will address your questions, most likely by starting a new thread on the issue. Rather than just responding with my opinion, I prefer to find quotes by prophets and others who are expert on an issue - It will take some time for me to gather the information you are asking for... hopefully others on the forum will also chime in.
Thanks. This topic came up while I was teaching gospel doctrine last year and we had quite the lively discussion in class! It'd be nice to have something more authoritative to offer than my opinion.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 6:42 am
by MercynGrace
larsenb wrote: The preemptive warfare condemned in the Book of Mormon and D&C is where you go up into the lands of a separate, distinct people to attack them. There are NUMEROUS passages in the BofM and D&C that outline this principle. I've collected most of them and can send them to you later. Right now, I've got to hit the hay.
Thanks, I'd love to see a compiled list of scriptures on this issue. Capt. Moroni's actions sure seem to justify agression against a group that you suspect will later come against you and as I mentioned to LDSCon, this came up last year in gospel doctrine and provided for a lively Sunday discussion :lol: I'd like to have more of a response next time this comes up.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 9:08 am
by Oldemandalton
This forum is NOT monolithic in its thought process as some may believe. THANK GOODNESS! :lol:

You have the Truthers, I call them Mythers. :)

You have cop and warmonger (soldiers) haters, you have those who solute those who serve our communities and country.

You have some who opt out of the ‘system’ and those who try and work within it.

You have the angry and the peacemakers.

You have capitalists pigs and socialists.

Some see ‘chemtrails’ others see contrails.

We have defeatists and we have optimists.

We have gun lovers and we have gun worshipers.

We have historians and those who have lived history.

We have scientists, doctors, lawyers and farmers, construction and office workers, etc.


I could go on and on. The point is I am not surprised that not everyone agrees with Glenn Beck, seeing how diverse we are. I have listened to him for several years and have seen him progress in knowledge over that time. He studies and reads like a beast to try and be as knowledgeable on a myriad of subjects. The economy, The Fed, history, the founding of this nation, etc. During this learning process I have seen several of his opinions change. He has expressed doubt on 9/11, brought up FEMA camps, Meximericanada, The Fed, and some one pulling the strings behind the Obama Admin. He has his staff do research on these and other areas that we have interests in. Beck puts this info out on his show and announces others, like the FEMA camps that he is working on. IMO Beck is trying his best to be informed and to spread the truth as he sees it. His favorite quote is this from Immanuel Kant: “There are things that I believe that I will never say, but I shall never say the things that I do not believe.”


Sick Twisted Freak
Old Man Dalton

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 10:03 am
by Mosby
Mercyngrace-
Using the example of the kingmen and Cpt. Moroni as justification for "pre-emptive" warfare is not at all in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ,the Book Of Mormon - or the LDS Church, and or any modern day prophets.

"pre-emptive" warfare is NOT an accepted practice in any of our teachings- only when your "enemy" has been given chance after chance - and you have already suffered at their hands AND THEN the Lord has told THE SPIRTUAL LEADER (usually a prophet) to prayerfully engage in a DEFENSIVE campaign to protect Life, liberty, and religion/family.

This is spelled out quite clearly in the Book Of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I have repeatedly heard the "kingmen excuse" used by Neocon LDS members to "justify" our killing of over 1 million Iraq citizens and solidiers, but the truth is -it just shows a lack of understanding in reguards to what is taught in the Book of Mormon.

I'm not attacking you personally Mercy- I enjoy your posts. I'm not going to post specific scriptures to "bolster my argument". I learned a long time ago as a missionary that everyone can "prove" their point using scriptures.

Rather I would challenge you and any others who would justify pre-emptive warfare to study the BOM, D&C, words of our Prophets and see if you still believe in this practice after a through and prayerful study on the matter.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 2:30 pm
by ndjili
Glenn Beck is awesome. I dont know why so many are so threatened by him but then again I'm begining to wonder about this site with all the men on here making comments that sound like they defend the porn lookers and criticize the word of wisdom, oh yeah and then there's all those apostate GA's they all rant about. :roll: :roll: :roll: Why cant we all be friends and let those who like Glenn Beck (and the word of wisdom and not looking at porn and blaming women for the man faults and for believeing the GA's are called of God) like him without all the crap?????

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 2:46 pm
by creator
ndjili wrote:Glenn Beck is awesome. I dont know why so many are so threatened by him but then again I'm begining to wonder about this site with all the men on here making comments that sound like they defend the porn lookers and criticize the word of wisdom, oh yeah and then there's all those apostate GA's they all rant about. :roll: :roll: :roll: Why cant we all be friends and let those who like Glenn Beck (and the word of wisdom and not looking at porn and blaming women for the man faults and for believeing the GA's are called of God) like him without all the crap?????
"all the men" surely it's not all the men... what you are referencing in your complaint is the opinions of just a few on the forum, a very small minority.

I don't think people here are threatened by Glenn Beck... As I mentioned previously, he has some major flaws in the philosophy he is teaching regarding foreign policy and war - I have high hopes for Glenn Beck and wish him well in his efforts, and hope he does a lot good! I also hope that he will open his mind even more to the truth and the words of the prophets and the founding fathers.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 2:50 pm
by oneClimbs
Beck is a Mormon; he is getting a huge following of non-Mormons that love his ideas (which are based on Mormon doctrines) they are very passionate about our country and are standing up for the constitution what happens if they start converting to our faith? We now have an influx of the most passionate Americans for the Constitution the Church has ever seen. They would wake up the sleeping members of our Church (converts are full of fire) :wink: They then could fulfill the prophecy of the Constitution hanging by a thread and the Elders saving in it on the brink.
men. And then the day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference. And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled the prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying, we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time.
Oddly enough, could Glenn Beck in part be helping to fulfill this prophecy. Mormons may cringe a little at him from time to time, but the world sees him as a Mormon regardless. He may be the only Mormon people know and he appears to be fighting for truth and the constitution. Could that be enough for people to look and say: Wow, the Mormons get it - we can stand with them.

Thoughts?

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 4:38 pm
by ndjili
Sorry. I really didnt mean all the men. That was a slip up on my part. I've just been getting so irritated with this site I look at it only a few times a week now and I think I need to not look at it at all.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 4:44 pm
by pjbrownie
Love the image

Hate that he's trying to link it to 9-11, such a touchy subject.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 5:21 pm
by Oldemandalton
FYI
History of the “Join or Die Flag 1754”

The rattlesnake was the favorite animal emblem of the Americans even before the Revolution. In 1751 Benjamin Franklin's Pennsylvania Gazette carried a bitter article protesting the British practice of sending convicts to America. The author suggested tht the colonists return the favor by shipping "a cargo of rattlesnakes, which could be distributed in St. James Park, Spring Garden, and other places of pleasure, and particularly in the noblemen's gardens." Three years later the same paper printed the picture (as seen above) of a snake as a commentary on the Albany Congress. To remind the delegates of the danger of disunity, the serpent was shown cut to pieces. Each segment is marked with the name of a colony, and the motto "Join or Die" below. Other newspapers took up the snake theme.

By 1774 the segments of the snake had grown together, and the motto had been changed to read: "United Now Alive and Free Firm on this Basis Liberty Shall Stand and Thus Supported Ever Bless Our Land Till Time Becomes Eternity"

Other authors felt the rattlesnake was a good example of America's virtues. They argued that it is unique to America; individually its rattles produce no sound, but united they can be heard by all; and while it does not attack unless provoked, it is deadly to step upon one.


I think Glenn Beck's idea is that we need to unite as the Founding Fathers did or we will lose this country.


OMD

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 5:28 pm
by creator
I was in the car today, listening to Glenn Beck when he said:

"You know, everybody says we don't have a special interest group for us, we don't have a lot. You are going to be the special interest group, but it is important that -- and I'm going to let this happen organically. I'm not going to steer it. Whatever it is you decide to put together. Now look, this is a very libertarian idea and, you know, libertarian is like trying to round up a bunch of cats. It's almost impossible. You are going to disagree with people. You are going to have a hard time getting through, but forget about arguing about the parties. Forget about arguing, "Oh, well, you guys did this and you guys did that." Forget about it. It is a waste of time, and I really believe time is running out. So focus on what you are, who you believe, what you think we need to do as a country and stop tearing the other side apart because we -- at least I do. I know who the Republicans are. They sold their soul to the devil, for power and money. "

"Now, that's not all of them, but the ones, the ones who have been in control, they are that. And a lot of them have decided they would become progressive Republicans. The Democrats who's running the party right now is the same thing except they are an extreme to the left. There are good people in both parties, but they're alone. And here's what I believe can happen. It may not but it will be up to you. What can happen. If you decide to keep this as a grassroots, if you use the meetup.com, you use the912project.com and you heard these cats together and you put together some real principles and you live by those principles..."

As I have pointed out in previous posts, and as Glenn Beck has said, we're not always going to agree on everything. Even on this forum we don't agree on everything. And that's okay. I probably won't organize or join a "912 project" group but I am involved in organizing some efforts locally here in Utah that stand on the same basic principles... and yes, if some "912 project" groups get involved in something that I also support I will definitely consider combining efforts, working together based on the principles of liberty.

We (those on this forum) certainly share a lot of common beliefs with those in the "912 project".

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 6:02 pm
by Mosby
Glenn Beck..............He's difficult for me to "label" - this is the guy who did as much as any other talk show host to discredit Ron Paul and his supporters as "kooks" and this is the same guy who dosen't believe in "conspiracy theories" - yet is LDS.

And this is one of the only guys out there to talk about "untouchables" like FEMA camps and "citizen revolutions".............I can't peg this guy.

Most here know my feelings on Beck- not a "bad" guy, but not a fan- I; like LDS Conservative find some major flaws in his doctrine on foreign policy and his support of genocide under the stars and stripes (Iraq, Af)- and that's enough to make me nervous about him.

I went to his web page and have a few questions about his 12 points - I hope some of you can shed some light on them:

1. America Is Good.

America is good - period. what does this mean? Who or what is America? Is America Thomas Jefferson's America? Or Abraham Lincoln's America? Or Bush or Obama's America?

Is the America that has killed well over 1 million people in endless and needless war over the last 15 years good? Because we are "good" are we above question?

America is good sounds to me alot like "Germany is good" and it sounds very, very Nationalistic to me- leading to fascism.

Why is "America is good" the first "point" - in front of "God is the center of my life" - (see above), this sounds alot like the type of talk a Christian man leading a Christian nation in 1936 would have engaged in..........


5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

This is the most troubling "point" for me- so is Beck really saying that if we "break a law - we pay the penalty"? Does anyone out there know how many "laws" the average citizen breaks on a daily basis? should we really "pay the price"?
Who sets the "price" - the government? yikes!

What about Un-Constitutional" laws? Shall we pay the penalty for breaking those as well? There are several thousand of these on the books. What about just plain stupid laws? Shall we turn in our neighbors because they "break a law" and "justice is blind"?

I wonder if Beck, (by his own admission) having been a buyer and user of illegal drugs really feels that he should "pay the penalty" for using those illegal substances? Will Beck turn himself in because "justice" must be served and the "price" paid?
I for one want no part in a society where "penalties" outweight mercy and common sense.

-Comments?

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 6:35 pm
by oneClimbs
5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

This is the most troubling "point" for me- so is Beck really saying that if we "break a law - we pay the penalty"? Does anyone out there know how many "laws" the average citizen breaks on a daily basis? should we really "pay the price"?
Who sets the "price" - the government? yikes!

What about Un-Constitutional" laws? Shall we pay the penalty for breaking those as well? There are several thousand of these on the books. What about just plain stupid laws? Shall we turn in our neighbors because they "break a law" and "justice is blind"?

I wonder if Beck, (by his own admission) having been a buyer and user of illegal drugs really feels that he should "pay the penalty" for using those illegal substances? Will Beck turn himself in because "justice" must be served and the "price" paid?
I for one want no part in a society where "penalties" outweight mercy and common sense.
Wow, excellent insight, very good point. I think this statement is directed at the CEOs and government officials (hence the 'no one is above it') who are constantly getting away with the proverbial murder of our nation. However that's the problem with defining principles in the heat of the moment with narrow vision. I've got my problems with Beck, but I at least like what he is doing - for the general public at least. At least the words of the founders are being spoken by someone, I mean, how much do you really expect from the media? Look at the media as a whole, would it be better if he wasn't there? I guess the answer to that depends.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 16th, 2009, 6:39 pm
by oneClimbs
America is good - period. what does this mean? Who or what is America? Is America Thomas Jefferson's America? Or Abraham Lincoln's America? Or Bush or Obama's America?
Pretty darn vague statement on Beck's part. I'm assuming Constitutional America. Even then, it IS just good. With Christ running it, it would be great! But America and it's principles are the best thing this world has known. It's unfortunate that so many wicked men have raped America's values. I think America is good. The vehicle America is good, but as passengers we have GOT to get better drivers.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 17th, 2009, 11:14 am
by Oldemandalton
Glenn Beck..............He's difficult for me to "label" - this is the guy who did as much as any other talk show host to discredit Ron Paul and his supporters as "kooks" and this is the same guy who dosen't believe in "conspiracy theories" - yet is LDS.

And this is one of the only guys out there to talk about "untouchables" like FEMA camps and "citizen revolutions".............I can't peg this guy.

Most here know my feelings on Beck- not a "bad" guy, but not a fan- I; like LDS Conservative find some major flaws in his doctrine on foreign policy and his support of genocide under the stars and stripes (Iraq, Af)- and that's enough to make me nervous about him.

I went to his web page and have a few questions about his 12 points - I hope some of you can shed some light on them:

1. America Is Good.

America is good - period. what does this mean? Who or what is America? Is America Thomas Jefferson's America? Or Abraham Lincoln's America? Or Bush or Obama's America?

Is the America that has killed well over 1 million people in endless and needless war over the last 15 years good? Because we are "good" are we above question?

America is good sounds to me alot like "Germany is good" and it sounds very, very Nationalistic to me- leading to fascism.

Why is "America is good" the first "point" - in front of "God is the center of my life" - (see above), this sounds alot like the type of talk a Christian man leading a Christian nation in 1936 would have engaged in..........


5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

This is the most troubling "point" for me- so is Beck really saying that if we "break a law - we pay the penalty"? Does anyone out there know how many "laws" the average citizen breaks on a daily basis? should we really "pay the price"?
Who sets the "price" - the government? yikes!

What about Un-Constitutional" laws? Shall we pay the penalty for breaking those as well? There are several thousand of these on the books. What about just plain stupid laws? Shall we turn in our neighbors because they "break a law" and "justice is blind"?

I wonder if Beck, (by his own admission) having been a buyer and user of illegal drugs really feels that he should "pay the penalty" for using those illegal substances? Will Beck turn himself in because "justice" must be served and the "price" paid?
I for one want no part in a society where "penalties" outweight mercy and common sense.
Mosbey, I am a regular listener to Glenn beck so let me try to explain what he meant in the two above principles you questioned. Here are my thoughts.

1.America Is Good.

America, the sum total, IS good. You have to look beyond the conspiracies and politics. Look at the forest not the trees. Put down your binoculars and enjoy the beauty. Yes there is trash amongst the trees in the forest but there is also beauty. I think sometimes we focus on the negative too much and we forget about the positive. Americans are the most giving and philanthropic people in the world. We have the freest form of government, why do you think everyone is trying to come HERE? Americans have become arrogant, selfish, and complacent and they don’t know what they really have till they either, visit another country or loose those freedoms. America still is good BUT we have been better. :)

5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

What Glenn means here is that everyone should be held to the same standard. No one is above the law. A politician who cheats on his taxes should receive the same penalty as one of us would. That's all he meant. :)


OMD

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 17th, 2009, 11:47 am
by pjbrownie
The justice Glenn talks about is the justice adhered to Natural Law; its vitally clear people understand that he bases almost all of this on the 5,000 year leap. I'm annoyed he's still seems very much pro military-industrial-complex, but that point is that you don't have to agree with everything - the principles and values are what counts. For me the final straw in my abandonment of neo-conservatism was not so much the idea of whether the military actions we take oversee are good overall or evil overall. You can never win that argument. The turn for me was in knowing that the founders didn't want us in entangling alliances, that treaties and warfare entagle you in such a way that they can contribute to the environment of a Republic becoming imperial from the executive branch, ie. needing more power to enforce the so-called "good" be it oversees or at home. This is not their function, and it will corrupt and destroy liberty overtime. History has taught us so.

I think we should focus on being a good example and let it at that. This is how we would treat our neighbors, why can't we do the same for our international enemies? And believe me, we should be prepared in every way for an attack from the outside - but we don't have to telecast it to our enemies.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 17th, 2009, 5:29 pm
by Mosby
OMD - thanks for the great comments.
The justice Glenn talks about is the justice adhered to Natural Law; its vitally clear people understand that he bases almost all of this on the 5,000 year leap
PJ - as well, great comments- I am enjoying your input more and more on this forum.

I will have to disagree about the "justice" Beck is talking about - I don't believe that he is basing his comments on "Natural Law". With Natural Law a price is always paid- in direct proportion to the offense against natural law. I jump off a cliff, the natural law of gravity takes over fair and square with "justice" for any and all.

The justice of man is flawed- if I choose to smoke weed the natural law says that my lungs will be impaired, I may suffer brain damage and other physical ills. Man's law would have you locked away for years, unable to work or support your family, and be branded a criminal for the rest of your life. Is this Justice?

God is just; man is not. Law is enforced with the barrel of a gun. Justice is not "just" in our society.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 17th, 2009, 5:55 pm
by MercynGrace
Mosby wrote:Mercyngrace-
Using the example of the kingmen and Cpt. Moroni as justification for "pre-emptive" warfare is not at all in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ,the Book Of Mormon - or the LDS Church, and or any modern day prophets.

"pre-emptive" warfare is NOT an accepted practice in any of our teachings- only when your "enemy" has been given chance after chance - and you have already suffered at their hands AND THEN the Lord has told THE SPIRTUAL LEADER (usually a prophet) to prayerfully engage in a DEFENSIVE campaign to protect Life, liberty, and religion/family.

This is spelled out quite clearly in the Book Of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I have repeatedly heard the "kingmen excuse" used by Neocon LDS members to "justify" our killing of over 1 million Iraq citizens and solidiers, but the truth is -it just shows a lack of understanding in reguards to what is taught in the Book of Mormon.

I'm not attacking you personally Mercy- I enjoy your posts. I'm not going to post specific scriptures to "bolster my argument". I learned a long time ago as a missionary that everyone can "prove" their point using scriptures.

Rather I would challenge you and any others who would justify pre-emptive warfare to study the BOM, D&C, words of our Prophets and see if you still believe in this practice after a through and prayerful study on the matter.
Mosby,
I never said I held this opinion, I said it came up in our gospel doctrine class and that I would like some authoritative source for responding to it. Presuming to know my intent reveals more about you than it does about me :wink: In fact, my exact words were:
I'd love to see a compiled list of scriptures on this issue. Capt. Moroni's actions sure seem to justify agression against a group that you suspect will later come against you and as I mentioned to LDSCon, this came up last year in gospel doctrine and provided for a lively Sunday discussion I'd like to have more of a response next time this comes up.
So actually, I'd love to have specific scriptures to "bolster" this argument, that's why I asked about it.

Mosby, we often read what we want to when we feel strongly about an issue so the fact that you misread my post is completely understandable. However, calling me to repentance for raising a valid question opens a very wide door for me to call you to repentance for your self-righteous condemnation in suggesting that I have little understanding of the Book of Mormon. So, you read my posts better and I'll read my B.O.M. better and perhaps, we'll both achieve greater understanding. :lol:

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 17th, 2009, 9:03 pm
by larsenb
MercynGrace wrote:I never said I held this opinion, I said it came up in our gospel doctrine class and that I would like some authoritative source for responding to it. . . . . . . . .
I'd love to have specific scriptures to "bolster" this argument, that's why I asked about it.
MercynGrace, here are a few. I've collected more and found the same sentiment in several D&C passages, some of which are quoted by Mosby, but haven't had time to add to my list:

PRE-EMPTIVE WAR BUMPS UP AGAINST THE BOOK OF MORMON

For those of you who are LDS, Elder L. Tom Perry, in the October Conference said: “Among the lessons we learn from the Book of Mormon are the cause and effect of war and under what conditions it is justified.”

So what does the Book of Mormon say about the conditions for a just war? Here are most of the relevant passages:

3 NEPHI 3:20-21: “Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni: Pray unto the Lord and let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands. But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them, the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together, and we will not go against them, but will wait till they shall come against us; therefore, as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them unto our hands.”

MOSIAH 8:1-2: 1: “I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance, and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them – but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed.” 2: “Therefore, I contended with my brethren in the wilderness, for I would that our ruler should make a treaty with them; but he being an austere and a blood-thirsty man commanded that I should be slain; but I was rescued by the shedding of much blood; for father fought against father, and brother against brother, until the greater umber of our army was destroyed in the wilderness; and we returned, those of us that were spared, to the land of Zarahemla, to relate that tale to their wives and their children.” [This story illustrates Zeniff, coming to an awareness of how it is wrong to go into foreign lands to destroy the people or forces in that land. It is significant that they themselves were almost all destroyed when part of their numbers insisted on proceeding with their attack against the Lamanites.]

ALMA 43:26, 46-47: [Moroni preparing for an attack from the Lamanites coming into Nephite lands]: 43: “And [Moroni] caused that all the people in that quarter of the land should gather themselves together to battle against the Lamanites, to defend their lands and their country, their rights and their liberties: therefore they were prepared against the time of the coming of the Lamanites”. 46: “And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.” 47: “And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country and their rights, and their religion.”

ALMA 48:14-16: 14: “Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.” 15: “And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger.” 16: “And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.”

MORMON 3:8-10, 14-16: 8-10: “And in the three hundred and sixty and second year [the Lamanites] did come down again to battle. And we did beat them again, and did slay a great number of them, and their dead were cast into the sea. And now, because of this great thing which my people, the Nephites, had done, they began to boast in their own strength, and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies. And they did swear before the heavens, and also by the throne of God, that they would go up to battle against their enemies and would cut them off from the face of the land. And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination.” 14-16: “And when they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren, behold the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold they shall be cut off from the face of the earth.”

MORMON 4:1, 4-6: 1: “And now it came to pass that in the three hundred and sixty and third year, the Nephites did go up with their armies to battle against the Lamanites, out of the land Desolation.” 4-6: And it was because the armies of the Nephites went up unto the Lamanites that they began to be smitten; for were it not for that, the Lamanites could have had no power over them.” But, behold, the judgements of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.”

Hugh Nibley had a lot to say on this subject and on these various passages, and came to the conclusion that preemptive warfare is strictly forbidden by the Lord. And he had seen some of the bloodiest fighting in WWII. I was in Vietnam and have come to the same conclusion, especially after discovering this doctrine in LDS scriptures. And the more I see, the more it makes sense, especially in the light of how modern warfare inflicts incredible 'collateral' damage, just as a matter course in how it is used and by the nature of the weaponry and techniques employed.

If you had a chance to see some of the horrible videos out Iraq, showing Americans murdering civilians in cold blood, and capturing some of their other abject wickedness, it would become very clear why the Lord has this commandment, if it isn't already (I've seen 6 or 5 of these and believe me, they are sickening). This isn't to say there are many units and individuals who would stoop this low; and I am aware of atrocities committed by certains factions against Americans and other foreigners. But two wrongs do not make a right.

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 18th, 2009, 9:04 am
by MercynGrace
larsenb,

For my own clarification then, the principles of 'just' warfare are:
- purely defensive
- should only follow diplomacy and should recognize the value of every society
- should only be in defense of life, land, country, rights and religion and follow prior attack
- avoidable by righteousness and possibly divinely inspired fleeing
- should not be motivated by vengence
- will fail if aggressive

I don't see these as principles that aren't well-recognized even among what LDSCON terms "neo-conservatives" in the church. It seems the only real discrepancy is with the idea that we should NEVER enter foreign lands to engage in warfare. This would imply that Pearl Harbor, 9/11, pirate attacks off the coast of Africa, and the impressment of Americans into the British navy were all unfounded reasons for military response. It also implies that entering both world wars was a mistake. Am I understanding you correctly?

Along those lines, how do we handle nuclear powers if mutually assured destruction does not deter?

Also, while I believe some of the historical examples can be used to derive general principles that can be broadly applied, I also believe that we can take that kind of literal interpretation too far. Does "better that one man should persih..." justify vigilantiism? Of course, not, and yet one would seem justified using the example of Nephi so long as they felt convinced that the Spirit was their guide.

To use certain examples to the exclusion of others presents a very limited and sometimes, self-serving doctrine. Jericho and Cana fell to the agressive and in some instances, brutal hands of the people led by the Lord and His prophet, a soldier-spy.

Personally, I don't like to declare myself on this issue because I think it is much more complex than any of us want to believe. I believe the Lord uses men, both righteous and wicked, to accomplish His objectives and often, we simply don't know His ways.

That said, I do love the debate :lol: and when it comes up again, I will have many more ideas to put out there if you all keep sharing your opinions. Thanks!

Re: Glenn Beck's 9/12 project

Posted: March 18th, 2009, 9:24 am
by Mosby
I don't mean to derail this thread from the Beckfest that it is but I would like to ask you something about the preemptive war issue.

When Capt. Moroni attacked the King-men for their unwillingness to wage war against the Lamanites, his act was pre-emptive. His was an "if you aren't for us, you're against us" attitude and he coerced his countrymen at the tip of a blade to either acquiesce to his point of view or die. (Alma 51)

Even before that civill war, Capt. Moroni marched on Amalickiah and his followers even though they had committed no overt act of aggression. Amalickiah and his followers dissented from their government and were leaving when Capt. Moroni decided that he'd better make sure they didn't hook up with the Lamanites. Again he either coerced or killed the dissenters. (Alma 46)

These actions were clearly preemptive and yet Capt. Moroni is lauded as a righteous man than others should emulate. (Alma 48)
Do you have any quotes explaining Capt. Moroni's actions or differentiating between what he did and any other kind of preemptive military action? I am not asking about the Iraq war but simply about the policy issue. If preemptive war is categorically wrong, what do you make of Capt, Moroni's behavior in these instances? And where can I find words of the prophets specifically addressing this issue.

This is your or



Mosby, we often read what we want to when we feel strongly about an issue so the fact that you misread my post is completely understandable. However, calling me to repentance for raising a valid question opens a very wide door for me to call you to repentance for your self-righteous condemnation in suggesting that I have little understanding of the Book of Mormon. So, you read my posts better and I'll read my B.O.M. better and perhaps, we'll both achieve greater understanding.
Mosby wrote:Mercyngrace-
Using the example of the kingmen and Cpt. Moroni as justification for "pre-emptive" warfare is not at all in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ,the Book Of Mormon - or the LDS Church, and or any modern day prophets.

"pre-emptive" warfare is NOT an accepted practice in any of our teachings- only when your "enemy" has been given chance after chance - and you have already suffered at their hands AND THEN the Lord has told THE SPIRTUAL LEADER (usually a prophet) to prayerfully engage in a DEFENSIVE campaign to protect Life, liberty, and religion/family.

This is spelled out quite clearly in the Book Of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I have repeatedly heard the "kingmen excuse" used by Neocon LDS members to "justify" our killing of over 1 million Iraq citizens and solidiers, but the truth is -it just shows a lack of understanding in reguards to what is taught in the Book of Mormon.

I'm not attacking you personally Mercy- I enjoy your posts. I'm not going to post specific scriptures to "bolster my argument". I learned a long time ago as a missionary that everyone can "prove" their point using scriptures.

Rather I would challenge you and any others who would justify pre-emptive warfare to study the BOM, D&C, words of our Prophets and see if you still believe in this practice after a through and prayerful study on the matter.
Mosby,
I never said I held this opinion, I said it came up in our gospel doctrine class and that I would like some authoritative source for responding to it. Presuming to know my intent reveals more about you than it does about me :wink: In fact, my exact words were:
I'd love to see a compiled list of scriptures on this issue. Capt. Moroni's actions sure seem to justify agression against a group that you suspect will later come against you and as I mentioned to LDSCon, this came up last year in gospel doctrine and provided for a lively Sunday discussion I'd like to have more of a response next time this comes up.
So actually, I'd love to have specific scriptures to "bolster" this argument, that's why I asked about it.

Capt. Moroni's actions sure seem to justify agression against a group that you suspect will later come against you and as I mentioned to LDSCon

These are your original posts Mercy- it sure seems to me that you are making the case in favor of "pre-emptive" warfare in the use of the example of the Kingmen and Cpt.Moroni. But if you are not I apoligize.

Mosby, we often read what we want to when we feel strongly about an issue so the fact that you misread my post is completely understandable. However, calling me to repentance for raising a valid question opens a very wide door for me to call you to repentance for your self-righteous condemnation in suggesting that I have little understanding of the Book of Mormon. So, you read my posts better and I'll read my B.O.M. better and perhaps, we'll both achieve greater understanding. :lol:

Mercy- I'm not and will never be in the business of "calling people to repentance" - calling Mosby to repentance is a full-time job that dosen't have an foreseable end. If you feel inclined to call me to repentance, that's fine I sure need it- that's what good friends do anyway :wink: I am gulity of being over the top on suggesting that you "read up on the BOM". The "Kingman" example is a sore spot with me because of all the LDS Neocon warriors who justify killing as scriptural.

I stand corrected on my self-righteousness :oops: I am glad you called me on it :lol: