The Lord has never commanded that polygamy be lived. Change my mind.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The footnotes are also crazy and messed up at times.

They can actually be quite misleading. Case in point, Isaiah 56:9-12, the church footnote says that Isaiah is speaking to the leaders of his day and how the watchmen are dumb dogs and aren’t raising a warning voice, happy to drink their wine and enjoy their supposed prosperity.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We also see a glaring omission in the header description of JST of Mark 9. The church calls out the hand and foot, as one who can lead you astray (literally, they use those words), but they don’t include the “eye”, the PSRs.

[Reluctant Watchman]

For those of you who want to argue that Jacob 2 is talking about polygamy with the whole “raising up seed”, you have to seriously consider this verse below from the Lord. Here he is speaking to these people, the descendants of Lehi, and how He would “raise up” a people unto Him. He was doing this without polygamy, but raising up a righteous people who would follow His commandments.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[LDS Watchman]

Yes exactly.

But God doesn't just say for them to "harken unto these things."

What did he say right before that?

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise...

There are two different commandments be referred to here when it comes to polygamy. The general commandments against it. And then the rare occasion where God commands it to raise up seed. If polygamy is allowed, He will specifically command his people, OTHERWISE they are to harken to "these things" (the commandment to only have one wife from the preceding verses).

Jacob is writing in a chiasmus structure here and you are misinterpreting what he wrote. The "otherwise" is referring to the consequences of not harkening, their chastisement, which is to say, "cursed be the land for their sakes." The Lord raises seed by having a righteous people who follow His commandments.


2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
2:24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
2:25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
2:26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
2:28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
2:29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
2:31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
2:32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2:33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2:34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
2:35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

He literally said that that it meant that they were to hearken to the commandments in the previous verse, which is the correct interpretation.

Now you're changing your story.

Umm no. I'll say it again: The "otherwise" is referring to the consequences of not harkening. Otherwise is the reminder, the chastening God gives to his children who do not harken to His commandments.

Otherwise = the chastening, the curse on the land
Harken to what? - the Commandments


hmm, "cursed be the land for their sakes", that sounds familiar...have I read that somewhere before?

You're trying to walk back what you said. This is not what you said originally.

Here's what you said:

""these things" that his people should "harken unto" is referring to "keep my commandments" in the previous verse."

The way you interpreted this phrase originally, "otherwise" can't possibly be a reminder of the curses. That doesn't work grammatically at all.

[Mamabear]

The footnotes are also crazy and messed up at times.

They can actually be quite misleading. Case in point, Isaiah 56:9-12, the church footnote says that Isaiah is speaking to the leaders of his day and how the watchmen are dumb dogs and aren’t raising a warning voice, happy to drink their wine and enjoy their supposed prosperity.

Ya. Pretty much every reference to false prophets and leaders leading astray is labeled, “apostasy of the early Christian church”. Lol
In John 14:16 the footnote used to refer to Second Comforter as Jesus Christ.(I have old scriptures). Then in 2013 they changed the reference to say Holy Ghost, for all new scriptures. So, the first and second comforter was s the Holy Ghost? I don’t think so.
I believe there is a massive cover up by the church….They do not want the members to know about the second comforter or talk about this doctrine as Joseph taught the people. they want people to think they cannot achieve this gift, that’s its only for prophets (although the current prophets haven’t attained this per Oaks). If people knew this doctrine, they would recognize they are being held back by men who want to be followed.
Real prophets want to bring people to Jesus Christ’s presence in this life. It’s one of the fruits we can know them by.

[LDS Watchman]

How many children did Abraham have?

The scriptures don't tell us how many children he had.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Anyone who thinks polygamy is sanctioned of god is crazy
Jacob 2: 31-32

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
.
This is why he will never command it. It breaks his precious daughters hearts

so in verse 30 God says he could, but in 31 and 32 God says why he won't.....ever

[Luke]

Anyone who thinks polygamy is sanctioned of god is crazy

It's not only sanctioned by God... it's lived by Him, too.

[simpleton]

Personally I think we are looking at the children of Isreal as if their nation and marital customs were like us pagan Roman influenced gentiles.
I think they were a polygamous nation. After all, the twelve tribes of Isreal are of/from the twelve sons of Jacob. All twelve being the sons of the 4 wives, concubines, servants or whatever you want to call them. But, the glaring facts are that Jacob/Isreal was fully accepted of God before and during his whole life to the end and he also died in the faith and to this day the twelve tribes, the twelve sons of all four of the wives of Jacob are held in honor by God.. God is many times referred to as "The mighty God of Jacob" also. To me that speaks volumes.
I agree with the above statement, that many here are "kicking against the pricks".
The overwhelming testimonies of women who were married to JS, and other witnesses also, to me, is irrefutable, as a whole.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The overwhelming testimonies of women who were married to JS, and other witnesses also, to me, is irrefutable, as a whole.

How about we take Joseph at his word while he was alive.... Shall we?

[simpleton]

The overwhelming testimonies of women who were married to JS, and other witnesses also, to me, is irrefutable, as a whole.

How about we take Joseph at his word while he was alive.... Shall we?

His words to the above many witnesses are quite overwhelming. While he was alive.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Anyone who thinks polygamy is sanctioned of god is crazy

It's not only sanctioned by God... it's lived by Him, too.

What evidence do you have of that?

[Baurak Ale]

How many children did Abraham have?

The scriptures don't tell us how many children he had.

318 children from the concubines.

Gen. 14:14
"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

How many children did Abraham have?

The scriptures don't tell us how many children he had.

318 children from the concubines.

Gen. 14:14
"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

[Baurak Ale]

As for a commandment to live it, I don't think you'll find outright evidence. But that is because, as the Lord said through Joseph Smith in D&C 132, the most sacred laws of God do not need to be commanded to be obeyed; when you come to a knowledge of it then you must obey it or you sin against the knowledge:

D&C 132:3
"Prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

[Reluctant Watchman]

The overwhelming testimonies of women who were married to JS, and other witnesses also, to me, is irrefutable, as a whole.

How about we take Joseph at his word while he was alive.... Shall we?

His words to the above many witnesses are quite overwhelming. While he was alive.

All secondhand mind you. And all after he was murdered.

[Reluctant Watchman]

As for a commandment to live it, I don't think you'll find outright evidence. But that is because, as the Lord said through Joseph Smith in D&C 132, the most sacred laws of God do not need to be commanded to be obeyed; when you come to a knowledge of it then you must obey it or you sin against the knowledge:

D&C 132:3
"Prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

Said no Joseph Smith ever. 132 contradicts Genesis 16 and Jacob 2.

[LDS Watchman]

How many children did Abraham have?

The scriptures don't tell us how many children he had.

318 children from the concubines.

Gen. 14:14
"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

Interesting. Never though about this before. I suppose this could be referring to his children from concubines, but it I think it's more likely it refers to his Canaanite servants and their children.

[Valheim]

you just seem to reject because you dislike polygamy. Dont hate the truth just because it is hard doctrine. People have given tons of god examples about the Lord allowing and commanding polygamy.

What were the wrongdoings of David and Solomon from Jacob's perspective? Was polygamy the sinful act they committed, or was it something else? Obviously, polygamy was accepted by the Lord at times, since many of His prophets participated in the practice. In fact, the Bible says that God gave David his plural wives:

2 Samuel 12:7-8 (emphasis added)

7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Would God give anyone something that was sinful, wrong, or evil? Absolutely not. If polygamy was not the sin that David committed, then what was it? The very next verse in the Bible explains the sin.

2 Samuel 12:9 (emphasis added)

Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
It was the murder of Uriah and the taking of his wife that was the sin David committed, not polygamy. David already had plural wives. These wives were given to him by God. Polygamy was not the sin David was guilty of, but murder and coveting another's wife was. David committed this murder (or rather caused it to happen) so he could have Uriah's wife as his own. In other words, David took an additional wife that the Lord did not give him. But the fact that he had plural wives was in no wise a sin.

The Doctrine and Covenants confirms what the Bible tells us concerning this matter.

DC 132:39

David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife;
It was the fact that Solomon allowed some of his wives to turn his heart away from the Lord that resulted in sin, not polygamy

What of Solomon? Was polygamy his sin? Not according to the Bible.

1 Kings 11:1-6 (emphasis added)

1 BUT king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
It was the fact that Solomon allowed some of his wives to turn his heart away from the Lord, just like Uriah's wife did with David, that resulted in sin or evil. It was not polygamy that was evil. The Book of Mormon explains that only when God commands it can a man have more than one wife at a time.

Now, let's return to the second chapter of Jacob:

Jacob 2:23 (emphasis added)

But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures...
Remember that verse 30 could be the "exception clause." That is why it is important to look at the full account in the scriptures, and not selectivity pick one or two verses.

Jacob 2:23 (emphasis added)

...for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

The Lord had not given permission for the people to have more than one wife at that time. The people were selectively using the scriptures to obtain more than one wife. Because the Lord had not given His permission, it was wrong to have more than one wife at a time, and Jacob can demonstrate how both these kings were also condemned by the Law for their unapproved actions.

Jacob 2:24;30

Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Verse: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things.

[LDS Watchman]

As for a commandment to live it, I don't think you'll find outright evidence. But that is because, as the Lord said through Joseph Smith in D&C 132, the most sacred laws of God do not need to be commanded to be obeyed; when you come to a knowledge of it then you must obey it or you sin against the knowledge:

D&C 132:3
"Prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

Said no Joseph Smith ever. 132 contradicts Genesis 16 and Jacob 2.

Actually D&C 132, harmonizes what is written in Genesis, 2 Samuel, and Jacob 2 into one consistent doctrine without any contradictions.

[Baurak Ale]

As for a commandment to live it, I don't think you'll find outright evidence. But that is because, as the Lord said through Joseph Smith in D&C 132, the most sacred laws of God do not need to be commanded to be obeyed; when you come to a knowledge of it then you must obey it or you sin against the knowledge:

D&C 132:3
"Prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

Said no Joseph Smith ever. 132 contradicts Genesis 16 and Jacob 2.

Increased truth and light often appears as a contradiction to previous revelation. If two truths are contrary yet factual, then additional truth is simply absent to resolve them; or as Joseph Smith once wrote, "By proving contraries, truth is made manifest."

FACT: Joseph Smith received D&C 132 from the Lord.
FACT: Jacob told the Nephites that Lehi prohibited polygamy among his children.
RECONCILING TRUTH: ???

Or another set:

FACT: Abraham was a polygamist
FACT: The Lord said David and Solomon had done abominations in their polygamy
RECONCILING TRUTH: ???

I don't want to do the legwork for anyone seeking revelation here, so go get the right spirit and find the third truths. (Disclaimer: that will be impossible while drinking in the spirit that reviles against Joseph Smith's revelation on plural marriage.)

[Baurak Ale]

you just seem to reject because you dislike polygamy. Dont hate the truth just because it is hard doctrine. People have given tons of god examples about the Lord allowing and commanding polygamy.

What were the wrongdoings of David and Solomon from Jacob's perspective? Was polygamy the sinful act they committed, or was it something else? Obviously, polygamy was accepted by the Lord at times, since many of His prophets participated in the practice. In fact, the Bible says that God gave David his plural wives:

2 Samuel 12:7-8 (emphasis added)

7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Would God give anyone something that was sinful, wrong, or evil? Absolutely not. If polygamy was not the sin that David committed, then what was it? The very next verse in the Bible explains the sin.

2 Samuel 12:9 (emphasis added)

Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
It was the murder of Uriah and the taking of his wife that was the sin David committed, not polygamy. David already had plural wives. These wives were given to him by God. Polygamy was not the sin David was guilty of, but murder and coveting another's wife was. David committed this murder (or rather caused it to happen) so he could have Uriah's wife as his own. In other words, David took an additional wife that the Lord did not give him. But the fact that he had plural wives was in no wise a sin.

The Doctrine and Covenants confirms what the Bible tells us concerning this matter.

DC 132:39

David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife;
It was the fact that Solomon allowed some of his wives to turn his heart away from the Lord that resulted in sin, not polygamy

What of Solomon? Was polygamy his sin? Not according to the Bible.

1 Kings 11:1-6 (emphasis added)

1 BUT king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
It was the fact that Solomon allowed some of his wives to turn his heart away from the Lord, just like Uriah's wife did with David, that resulted in sin or evil. It was not polygamy that was evil. The Book of Mormon explains that only when God commands it can a man have more than one wife at a time.

Now, let's return to the second chapter of Jacob:

Jacob 2:23 (emphasis added)

But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures...
Remember that verse 30 could be the "exception clause." That is why it is important to look at the full account in the scriptures, and not selectivity pick one or two verses.

Jacob 2:23 (emphasis added)

...for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

The Lord had not given permission for the people to have more than one wife at that time. The people were selectively using the scriptures to obtain more than one wife. Because the Lord had not given His permission, it was wrong to have more than one wife at a time, and Jacob can demonstrate how both these kings were also condemned by the Law for their unapproved actions.

Jacob 2:24;30

Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Verse: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things.

Good to see another faithful Swede on the forum! (I am not from Sweden, but of Swedish descent.) Gud välsigna!

[Reluctant Watchman]

People have given tons of god examples about the Lord allowing and commanding polygamy.

What were the wrongdoings of David and Solomon from Jacob's perspective? Was polygamy the sinful act they committed, or was it something else?

No, not a single instance where the Lord commanded it. Not a single one in written scripture.

And yes, the Lord condemned David and Solomon harshly for polygamy.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Actually D&C 132, harmonizes what is written in Genesis, 2 Samuel, and Jacob 2 into one consistent doctrine without any contradictions.

??? Nope.

[Baurak Ale]

How many children did Abraham have?

The scriptures don't tell us how many children he had.

318 children from the concubines.

Gen. 14:14
"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

Interesting. Never though about this before. I suppose this could be referring to his children from concubines, but it I think it's more likely it refers to his Canaanite servants and their children.

I had never thought of it before reading it in the Journal of Discourses. I can't actually find the reference now, but the scripture does add the odd bit about the servants being born in Abraham's own house. If they had been children of his wives, they'd have been sons; but of his concubines they'd be servants. Could be Canaanite servants too, but, again, I actually got this from one of the early brethren. If I find it I will post it.