Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 5:50 pm
Responding to your (RW's) essay:
Part 1: The Church does not teach to follow the prophet as an exclusionary device but more like follow the prophet because He follows Christ. You follow both. Not one at the expense of the other.
Part 2: What was to become the saving ordinances was not yet finalized when the Wentworth letter was made. This was 1842. Nauvoo's temple was still under construction at the time.
Part 3: Everyone, poor or rich, has been asked to sacrifice their part to building up the Kingdom of God. Jesus appreciated the widow's mite more than many that donated weeks or months' loads of salary because she had given to Jesus everything.
Part 4: The Church does this part quite a bit in the local arena as well as global. It also looks to the future with anticipation because unlike many people on this board, it is quite obvious that the Lord requires a good effort from everyone. Zion's not going to come down like Tinker Bell pixie dust. It will require our consecrated efforts to bring that to pass. The 150 billion dollars is still a proverbial drop in the bucket compared to what Zion will cost in time, effort, and money.
Part 5: There is ample evidence that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and was sealed to various women. That is a matter of public record. The Book of Mormon did not completely condemn polygamy, but did give one reason why polygamy would be permitted: To raise up seed to the Lord. This is a matter of fact in multiple dispensations. Once the amount of seed has gotten up to a critical mass, then polygamy would no longer be needed, and that's essentially what happened with the modern day Church.
Part 6: You act as if this was the only way. The rest of the post under 6 reads like something I would find out of "The Mormon Worker." No one can be forced into riches. But they can be taught how to work and find marketable skills in order not to be poor any longer. The Church through its self reliance education does its best to fulfill that scripture that there will be no more poor among us. Instead of lamenting and complaining, they take action.
7. That's not like the testimony meetings that I see in my ward, or in several other wards that I have seen. Now, given, where I do see an example like that marked in blue, I see that more often up and down the 15 corridor north of Vegas and south of the Montana border. Outside that, pretty much every testimony meeting I have seen is that which you describe in red.
8. The Church is in NO position to condemn and attack the secret combinations; it is nowhere near strong enough to stand on its own with the world combined against them. Any foolhardy attempt to copy a Captain Moroni style of attack would be met with stiff resistance and humiliating defeat. The best we can hope for today is a Gidgiddoni situation, not making everything public for all to hear, but quietly telling the members what they need to do for the rainy days ahead. And simply, NOT TO PARTICIPATE personally with the secret combos. That will starve them out, little by little. But this will require us uniting with people of other faiths who think similarly about what is going on, which is what the Church is doing here, smartly, intelligently, not rashly.
9. Most pharmaceutical drugs come from herbs. People have known that herbs have distinct medicinal properties, so you have people experienced in organic chemistry that find out how come two very different herbs have similar medicinal properties, and they isolate the chemicals from those herbs to form the pharmaceutical drugs we have today.
Vaccines? Not too much different. Some wise doctor figured out that if you were to give the body a weakened form of a bacteria or a virus, the immune system would be in a much better position to combat it, so that if the real form of the virus or bacteria attacked, the immune system would recognize the threat and stamp it out before it could get a person sick.
Keep in mind that Joseph Smith was very traumatized with the medicine that he received; going through a painful surgery as a young boy and watching his brother get sick and die from a type of medicine that contained mercury, a very poisonous chemical to ingest. Brigham Young, closely acquainted with Joseph Smith, undoubtedly had this in mind when he counseled the Saints these same things, but upon seeing the medical profession becoming full of "gentiles," he wisely sent elders east to learn of medicine and to bring these things back to Utah. Did Brigham fall? No. He learned, and he swallowed his pride.
10. The temples, though beautiful to look on, I could hardly describe as ornate, when comparing to other buildings that I have seen that are quite important in other faiths. Ever seen the national mosques under Islam? Let's not even go to Makkah or Madinah, let's go to Abu Dhabi (picture attached). There's not a single building owned by the Church that even comes to a hundredth of the ornateness or beauty of the Abu Dhabi mosque. Have you seen the cathedrals described as "National Cathedrals" in the different countries of the world under Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Or even those buildings described as local cathedrals. There is a ton more gold inside of the Basilica of Ocotlan in my local city of Tlaxcala, than there is in the Mexico City Temple. And the Basilica of Ocotlan isn't even the most important church in the city of Tlaxcala, population 100k! You do exaggerate much in that part. Perhaps because you are not well-traveled.
11. Different situation, that exhibited in the Book of Mormon versus now. The Book of Mormon you only see two countries. Now we have two hundred, each one with differing definitions on things like rights and freedoms.
12. I'll give you that one, albeit the Book of Mormon referenced the Lamanites who in this dispensation were NEVER prohibited from holding the priesthood. The Africans however were under a different set of restrictions that were employed from the Old Testament of the Bible.
13. Blood Atonement was taught by Brigham, however not taught afterwards, and is condemned by today's Church.
14. Not everyone can handle wine. Not everyone can handle bread either. The Church makes adjustments for both. It would be very interesting to try to impose the wine requirement on those that live in the Muslim countries in the Middle East where wine or any alcohol for that matter is strictly forbidden Good thing the Lord saw that coming.
15. Local meetings continue to be conducted under the Spirit. The General Authorities give their general conference messages under the conduct of the Spirit, preparing anywhere from a few hours to a full six months for their talks.
16. No one denies the gift of prophesy but it must be had in the sphere of influence of the person that is prophesying. No one outside of the FP and Q12 can prophesy to the entire Church and make it binding on the Church to follow. You could have someone from outside the hierarchy come, with the hierarchy's blessing (think Samuel the Lamanite in this case, or Balaam's case in the Old Testament when he refused to curse Israel), but it must come with their blessing. Occasionally you will get an Abinadi moment where someone from outside of the hierarchy comes, but that must be because all the hierarchy has been corrupted, selected by wicked men. We have no evidence of that in the Church today that any one of the 15 (much less all of them) are as the priests of King Noah.
17. This is now done for administrative purposes. But it's not the 12, 14, or 16 year old's fault that they haven't received these types of manifestations. You could have someone the age of a baby receive the manifestation. It all depends on how the work is done at home.
18. The Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles for their consistent insolence and their inability to obey the Gospel because it contradicts their political or social views. Maybe ten years ago, I would have guessed that those called Progmos would be the guys to do it (fall away). But there are many rock-solid members that are falling away too over many trivialities and a lack of proper understanding. If you go down to Latin America, or read the accounts of the Church in Spanish, virtually everyone is following the counsel of the leaders of the Church, with very few dissentions. North of the border, that is a very different story. You just had a Latino and an Asian get called as Apostles, and more and more people from different groups are being called to be General Authorities. The Church is starting to be handed over towards those of Israel as the Americans and Europeans start dwindling in unbelief, just as the scriptures foretold!
19. The Kingdom of God is on the earth today, though not in its fullness. That will come in the Millennium on the Earth.
20. If what you say is true, how come the leaders are constantly calling the members to repentance? How come the members willfully rebel against the Lord when an apostle reminds people about the Plan of Salvation?
To answer your final questions:
The Gentiles are those that came over from the European nations, both members and non-members. Their lot is cast in a bad way unless they repent.
You are not rejected from a chapel for being poor. You will be rejected if you don't follow local health protocols like the wearing of a mask or in countries where they require it, a vaccination certificate. That's not on the Church, however, but on the governments enforcing those regulations.
1. Saying "at the exclusion of" is an overstatement (too extreme in a strawman way). They definitely heavily teach/promote "follow the prophet" and I hear it echoed in the thoughts of many members from different countries (as a sample we have members from at least 27 different countries in my ward). Even to the point "that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (TPJS p. 238). In other words, they rely to much on following the Prophet rather than developing their own spiritual muscles by seeking Him, trying to hear Him, etc. And stating that they can't lead astray is false doctrine.
2. Who finalizes them? Weren't they finalized back at the foundation of the world? The point was how those things are taught in the BoM vs the change with all of its implications, especially by adding "first". Few things are taught more clearly and consistently as:
"…I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ;...
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." - 2 Nephi 31:2,17,19,20
3. That is inaccurate, see the tithing thread. Anyhow the widow's mite was really about her heart vs the rich man's heart, and not about everyone has to pay. About their attitudes toward consecration. Then how the stewards use the donations is another ball of wax.
4. Completely wrong, temporally minded. God doesn't need money. What God requires are a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The Gentiles (including the CoJCoLDS) for the greater part will reject the fullness of the Gospel, which is why the Remnant of Jacob will lead the building of New Jerusalem. Also, Zion is not found in buildings, it is found in hearts and minds (broken hears and contrite spirits).
5. Look again. Joseph did not have multiple carnal wives. Joseph and Hyrum up until their deaths worked and spoke out against polygamy.
""A few years ago [May 1869 to April 1870] I obtained the affidavits of as many as I knew of, with a few exceptions, who received personal instructions or commandment from The Prophet respecting the Subject of celestial marriage [,] all of which are filed away in the H.O. [Historian’s Office]…. When the subject first came before my mind I must say
I was astonished at the scarcity of evidence, I might say almost total absence of direct evidence upon the Subject, as connected with the Prophet Joseph himself. There was nothing written and but few living who were personally knowing to the fact that Joseph Taught the principle. True much had been written in support of the Doctrine, bearing upon scriptural-and rational evidences, but not a word, except the Revelation itself. Showing that the The Prophet was the Author-under God…."" (Joseph Smith’s Polygamy, Volume 1: History, Brian C. Hales, p. 9
Not a surprise seeing as how all the "evidence" came from 2nd or 3rd or more hands after Joseph's death and separated in time by up to decades from Joseph.
6. It is the only way in a sense. That is an attribute of Zion, "no poor among them" (Moses 7)
7. It's not about the 15-corridor culture, it is about what is taught from the pulpit by the 15.
8. The Church doesn't need to fight SC's, it's members do. It's hard for members to fight the good fight if the Church is supporting and promoting a number of them.
9. No most pharmaceutical drugs do not come from herbs. What they do is try to come up with synthetic versions so they can patent them.
Vaccines are an interesting concept, but they aren't as effective as they are promoted to be, and they have more adverse effects than are attributed to them.
Saying that BY swallowed his Pride is kinda funny. BY was the epitome of pride and self aggrandizment.
10. Our sanctuaries are indeed very fine, who are you kidding? Besides saying that there are more fine structures is a matter of degree, it's also a Red Herring fallacy.
11. The promised land is a land of liberty for a reason. Teaching a yielding to the enticings of incorrect principles is unbecoming and wrong. You know life is not about being comfortable it should be about the truth: finding it and teaching it. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
12. Wrong again. You do not understand what darkness means, what God is Love is, what the land of Canaan was and how that is different than Ham's son Canaan, what Cain's, Lamech's and others' curse was, what Cain's mark was, and more.
13. Condemned? Do we have any signs of it being truly condemned? I question this, because that would mean that a prophet can lead us astray.
14. Your arguments here are mostly pointless. Grape juice is wine. New wine is from pressed grapes prior to fermentation. But that's neither here nor there really. The point is the ordinance and not water vs wine or bread vs rice cakes. Personally, I think the sacramental bread should be unleavened just as it was at the Last Supper.
15. There is a difference between prepared words (not that it is always wrong to prepare) and "take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." (Mark 3:11)
16. He didn't say that others can or should prophesy for the entire Church. The point was that if one receives prophecy the test should not be whether it differs from the words of the current 15. For instance, on multiple occasions, my family and many that I know received clear personal revelation not to take the experimental COVID-19 vaccine despite that going against what the 15 taught on the matter. Were we wrong? Or Is it just because the 15 didn't say that one had to take it but only called it a "godsend" and 'strongly urged' us to take it that this situation doesn't qualify?
17. His argument is that it shouldn't be systematic.
18. Gong is of Asian descent but he is American. And you know it was kind of funny that just the other day my German/Swiss friend made a comment about how American Urchdorf is after living there and being in the 15 for quite a while now. Anyhow it is not isolated to N.A.
19. Actually it will come before the millennium when New Jerusalem is built during the time of tribulation. Just saying.
