LDS Freedom Forum

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:25 am You can't blame your bad behavior on me.

So much to learn from you Atti. Noted.

@atticus, no, it's not Denver Snuffer's version of history. This is actually from documentation and I've never heard it from Snuffer - this was pieced together from historical evidence. So nope, wrong again.

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:38 am @atticus, no, it's not Denver Snuffer's version of history. This is actually from documentation and I've never heard it from Snuffer - this was pieced together from historical evidence. So nope, wrong again.

No, I'm right.

Joseph Smith had the 1st presidency and Quorum of the 12 sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in Kirtland.

Following Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young was also referred to as a prophet, as were other presidents of the church prior to David O. McKay.

@atticus LOL keep smokin' it dude. You're deluded and gonna sail on into judgement to a nice fat wakeup call and have to deal with round two.

You're not much of one for reason and revelation, but that's alright. The Lord still loves you, but it doesn't mean you don't have to deal with consequence.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 10:49 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 10:09 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 9:54 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 9:46 am

nope, me having and eating my cake too

So it's only a problem for you if people suffer and die following Brigham Young, not other prophets. Okay, got it.

lol, no sense of humor, noted.

No, if you want to scratch a couple of old people off the Willy and Martin Handcart companies' death toll it's not going to change much.

Lehi/Nephi weren't wrong, while BY et al were. If you don't see the difference in that, then I don't know what to think about you other than you are so stubborn that you would rather die on a petty hill.

Atticus planting his flag...

I have a sense of humor, I just don't find your false accusation and double standard against Brigham Young funny.

I'm not the one being petty here. You're the one who is digging in and refusing to retract your false accusation against Brigham Young and resorting to judging him by a different standard than you judge Joseph Smith or Lehi.

I did not call you petty, I said the hill is petty. I did say you were stubborn for equivocating that people following Joseph in Nauvoo, or Ishmael following Nephi/Lehi was the same.

And it is not a false accusation against BY et al. BY and co. knew that those handcart companies we leaving late, he was still expecting them. He wrote as much in his own journals, "very late". His response was not only to try to cover up his knowledge about it afterward but to claim heroics when he finally sent a rescue party.

From BY's writings and quotes, he appears to have been very arrogant, to say the least. He boasted a lot, and always justified his actions.

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:50 am @atticus LOL keep smokin' it dude. You're deluded and gonna sail on into judgement to a nice fat wakeup call and have to deal with round two.

You're not much of one for reason and revelation, but that's alright. The Lord still loves you, but it doesn't mean you don't have to deal with consequence.

Everything I said is 100% true.

If you think stating verifiable truth makes me deluded, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:42 am

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:38 am @atticus, no, it's not Denver Snuffer's version of history. This is actually from documentation and I've never heard it from Snuffer - this was pieced together from historical evidence. So nope, wrong again.

No, I'm right.

Joseph Smith had the 1st presidency and Quorum of the 12 sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in Kirtland.

Following Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young was also referred to as a prophet, as were other presidents of the church prior to David O. McKay.

you are missing what he is saying. He is not saying that their positions weren't considered PSR, he is saying that until McKay the President of the Church was not called "Prophet". The Prophet always referred to Joseph. A reporter in the 50's started the colloquial use of calling the President/Presiding High Priest of the Church by the title "Prophet".

I don't know anything about DS really, this stuff is just kind of known and out there. Nothing revisionist or nefarious, just fact.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:42 am

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:38 am @atticus, no, it's not Denver Snuffer's version of history. This is actually from documentation and I've never heard it from Snuffer - this was pieced together from historical evidence. So nope, wrong again.

No, I'm right.

Joseph Smith had the 1st presidency and Quorum of the 12 sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in Kirtland.

Following Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young was also referred to as a prophet, as were other presidents of the church prior to David O. McKay.

you are missing what he is saying. He is not saying that their positions weren't considered PSR, he is saying that until McKay the President of the Church was not called "Prophet". The Prophet always referred to Joseph. A reporter in the 50's started the colloquial use of calling the President/Presiding High Priest of the Church by the title "Prophet".

I don't know anything about DS really, this stuff is just kind of known and out there. Nothing revisionist or nefarious, just fact.

It's simple false to say that the presidents of the church were never considered prophets until David O. McKay.

It doesn't matter how many people make this false claim. It's still false.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:42 am

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 11:38 am @atticus, no, it's not Denver Snuffer's version of history. This is actually from documentation and I've never heard it from Snuffer - this was pieced together from historical evidence. So nope, wrong again.

No, I'm right.

Joseph Smith had the 1st presidency and Quorum of the 12 sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in Kirtland.

Following Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young was also referred to as a prophet, as were other presidents of the church prior to David O. McKay.

you are missing what he is saying. He is not saying that their positions weren't considered PSR, he is saying that until McKay the President of the Church was not called "Prophet". The Prophet always referred to Joseph. A reporter in the 50's started the colloquial use of calling the President/Presiding High Priest of the Church by the title "Prophet".

I don't know anything about DS really, this stuff is just kind of known and out there. Nothing revisionist or nefarious, just fact.

I don't think that is what JReuben is saying. He seems to be saying that the presidents of the church weren't called prophets at all, not that we should use the title President, not Prophet, when addressing them.

As you seem to acknowledge, all of the presidents of the church were considered and called prophets, but used the title President.

jreuben wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 10:39 am @Subcomandante there is more than sufficient evidence that demonstrates how brother Woodruff facilitated - perhaps unwittingly at some level - the apostasy during his tenure as president. They were scared and so my sympathy goes out somewhat, but they gave in nonetheless and that was a terrible disaster and the downfall. They gave into the communists that had already taken hold of the USA. It is completely provable that the Civil War, for example, was the capitulation of the nation into the hands of the communists (specifically the Rothschilds admitted to having brought this down for their own purposes; this is documented and provable). President Woodruff was at the end of a gun in more ways than one and he had to facilitate the church to capitulate to the multifold demands of them. He had every intention of rolling this back shortly after the "Manifesto", but ultimately was murdered before he could do so and sadly too few knew of his plan to actually enact it. Thus the blind following proceeded and in full adherence to the luciferians' plans.

No, current breakaways are NOT prophets as far as I have known any of them thus far. I have received no spiritual witness and none of them are sufficiently compelling and appear to themselves be pawns.

So, if I understand you correctly, JReuben, the Church fell into apostasy due to the actions of WIlford Woodruff re polygamy and then the subsequent admission of Utah as a state in the United States six years later?

And you feel that NONE of the breakaway sects can be true either because you have not received a spiritual witness?

How would you advise those seekers of truth to move forward? That someone looks for the same class of theophanic vision that Joseph Smith had?

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:02 pm
BY and co. knew that those handcart companies we leaving late, he was still expecting them. He wrote as much in his own journals, "very late".

Yes, they knew they were leaving late. But they had faith that God would protect them. The people also really wanted to go and had faith as well.

Yes, one could say this is was a mistake because of the suffering they endured. Or, like I I keep saying, this could all have been God's will and he wanted the members of these handcart companies to pass through the refiners fire. Which history shows that they did.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:02 pm His response was not only to try to cover up his knowledge about it afterward but to claim heroics when he finally sent a rescue party.

I'm not familiar with the cover up and claim of heroics you are referring to. I think you just have beef with Brigham and are therefore putting a negative spin on the whole story.

Things have deteriorated in America to the point where if Church authorities at the 50 East North Temple and 47 East South Temple were to resume teaching the weighty principles of freedom. the latter-day gadiantons would attack the Church is ways that would seriously hinder its missionary and building programs. I guess we will have to settle for such teachings from the few emeritus general authorities like Tad Callister and Hartman Recktor, from those permitted by the occasional bishop or stake president to speak about the US Constitution, freedom, and liberty in church buildings, and the members who host and teach Constitution study groups in their homes.

Most American Latter-day Saints have little if any appreciation for our original US Constitution. The interest and concern is simply not there. Nor was it there back in the days of Presidents Benson, McKay, and Clark. It has not been taught in public schools for many, many years. And that was no accident; it was neglected on purpose.

I appreciate and thank the Creator of this LDSFF, the organizers of the 4 Constitution study groups within a 1/2 hour drive of our home, the organizers of the recent presentation by Elder Tad Callister in a stake center near us, the JBS chapter leaders and members all over the United States, and people like Joel Skousen, Chuck Baldwin, Jeff Neuquist, and others who expose the dangers to our freedoms and liberty.

Something to chew on.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 12:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 12:12 am I have come to realise that Atticus isn't interested in what anyone has to say and is determined to be contrary just for the hell of it. I think he believes he's on some kind of celestial credit earning crusade. He therefore never stops to really consider what someone is saying or the sentiments they express, but lines up to oppose in any way he can. He is the ultimate example of an accuser of the brethren in my view, and is simply here to stir up controvery wherever possible.
I used to give him the benefit of the doubt but his behaviour has removed all doubt.
There's none so blind as those who refuse to see was a phrase coined with Atticus and his sidekick in mind.

Robin Hood, please read these words of Jesus Christ very carefully.

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You have completely misjudged me. Not only that, but you're falsely accusing me to boot.

Just listen to yourself. Because I defend the brethren against false accusations, I'm now "the ultimate example of an accuser of the brethren."

Robin Hood, it really is sad what's happened to you lately. You use to be one to defend the brethren, too. You use to be a voice of reason on this forum and other sites like Pure Mormonism and Anonymous Bishop. I use to have a lot of respect for you. But now all of a sudden it seems you're going off the deep end and have joined the mockers and accusers. I sincerely hope you snap out of it. I really do.

Just to let you know, I haven't read the above and I don't read anything you post.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 1:16 pm Something to chew on.

I don't trust Rob Fotheringham. I think he's deceptive. I watched an interview with him a few weeks ago and his body language said a lot more than his words.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:57 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:02 pm
BY and co. knew that those handcart companies we leaving late, he was still expecting them. He wrote as much in his own journals, "very late".

Yes, they knew they were leaving late. But they had faith that God would protect them. The people also really wanted to go and had faith as well.

Yes, one could say this is was a mistake because of the suffering they endured. Or, like I I keep saying, this could all have been God's will and he wanted the members of these handcart companies to pass through the refiners fire. Which history shows that they did.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:02 pm His response was not only to try to cover up his knowledge about it afterward but to claim heroics when he finally sent a rescue party.

I'm not familiar with the cover up and claim of heroics you are referring to. I think you just have beef with Brigham and are therefore putting a negative spin on the whole story.

I guess God just dropped the ball on that one, oops

Here I'll give you the quick version:

BY, we need to save money so I can build me and my 50 wives two huge houses.
BY, if we do handcarts instead of wagons we will save a ton.
BY, they are leaving "very late" but they are all coming.
Richards, whoa I saw them along the way, they are gonna have problems
BY, Oh man what are they doing I never expected them to come now, someone should have told them
BY, here we come to the rescue

I don't have anything against BY personally. I do critique and comment on things he said or did. He does seem to demand more critique than most. Don't shoot the messenger on that account BY is the one who provides an abundance of material.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 1:19 pm I don't trust Rob Fotheringham. I think he's deceptive. I watched an interview with him a few weeks ago and his body language said a lot more than his words.

I don't trust anyone unless the Spirit adds a witness. I only watched a few minutes of his recent video on Elijah and turned it off. This video on the pioneers on the other hand is quite insightful. He quotes from journals and written histories that unveil much more than the LDS org scrubbed narrative.

I was also surprised that he had so few questions about current church teachings.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:45 pm And you feel that NONE of the breakaway sects can be true either because you have not received a spiritual witness?

What does this even mean? What does it mean for a group to be “true”?

I don’t believe any of the groups are the “one true group/church/sect” because I believe the church IS the believers. Inasmuch as a group teaches truth and possesses authority (which I believe many do), God will work with them.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 1:16 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 12:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 12:12 am I have come to realise that Atticus isn't interested in what anyone has to say and is determined to be contrary just for the hell of it. I think he believes he's on some kind of celestial credit earning crusade. He therefore never stops to really consider what someone is saying or the sentiments they express, but lines up to oppose in any way he can. He is the ultimate example of an accuser of the brethren in my view, and is simply here to stir up controvery wherever possible.
I used to give him the benefit of the doubt but his behaviour has removed all doubt.
There's none so blind as those who refuse to see was a phrase coined with Atticus and his sidekick in mind.

Robin Hood, please read these words of Jesus Christ very carefully.

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You have completely misjudged me. Not only that, but you're falsely accusing me to boot.

Just listen to yourself. Because I defend the brethren against false accusations, I'm now "the ultimate example of an accuser of the brethren."

Robin Hood, it really is sad what's happened to you lately. You use to be one to defend the brethren, too. You use to be a voice of reason on this forum and other sites like Pure Mormonism and Anonymous Bishop. I use to have a lot of respect for you. But now all of a sudden it seems you're going off the deep end and have joined the mockers and accusers. I sincerely hope you snap out of it. I really do.

Just to let you know, I haven't read the above and I don't read anything you post.

I'm sure you read what I wrote. But if you didn't, you really should, for your own sake.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

I could see the government and church leaders wanting to do anything to make Jesus in this day and age stop speaking or making sure people didn’t hear him. Even back in the day, they first tried to make him stop, and after realizing that he wasn’t going to just be silent, then they resorted to kill him. It would be around the same, first try and humiliate him, or make him stop talking, and if that didn’t seem to work, then resort to try taking away his life.

Benjamin_LK wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 2:16 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

I could see the government and church leaders wanting to do anything to make Jesus in this day and age stop speaking or making sure people didn’t hear him. Even back in the day, they first tried to make him stop, and after realizing that he wasn’t going to just be silent, then they resorted to kill him. It would be around the same, first try and humiliate him, or make him stop talking, and if that didn’t seem to work, then resort to try taking away his life.

Again, there are lots of church critics today, and lots of faith healers. Is the church trying to kill them?

Luke wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 1:40 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:45 pm And you feel that NONE of the breakaway sects can be true either because you have not received a spiritual witness?

What does this even mean? What does it mean for a group to be “true”?

I don’t believe any of the groups are the “one true group/church/sect” because I believe the church IS the believers. Inasmuch as a group teaches truth and possesses authority (which I believe many do), God will work with them.

What I mean by this, Luke, is if the LDS Church is not the church of Jesus Christ on the earth today, complete with its organization, then who is? Or is there no one on the earth with that authority?

The question was directed towards JReuben.

And I honestly think it is ridiculous that the leaders of the Church would try to kill Him whose name is plastered amongst all the chapels and temples the world over.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 2:28 pm And I honestly think it is ridiculous that the leaders of the Church would try to kill Him whose name is plastered amongst all the chapels and temples the world over.

“They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me”

@sub
But they would teach doctrine contrary to what He taught. They would blaspheme His name in the midst of His house.