TBM - "when they realize the evil they defended ....

[LDS Watchman]

you trust in the arm of the flesh, and put your trust in men

You keep using this phrase. I don't think it means what you think it does.

Trusting in the arm of flesh isn't sustaining imperfect church leaders.

Here are is an example of trusting in the arm of flesh:

Rejecting revelations and teachings of the Lord's great prophet and seer Joseph Smith, in favor of the ideas of a learned Hebrew scholar and your own understanding.

[LDS Watchman]

When God commands his children to go through things he provides a way.

He doesn't send his children on senseless harmful journeys.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Their suffering wasn't senseless. They were being forged by the refiners fire.

So a refiner's fire is meant to burn up precious ore/person?

Or the people who died must have been unworthy dross.

Were all of the people who died in Missouri unworthy dross? How about Ishmael, who died for listening to Lehi's call to leave Jerusalem?

[ransomme]

When God commands his children to go through things he provides a way.

He doesn't send his children on senseless harmful journeys.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Their suffering wasn't senseless. They were being forged by the refiners fire.

So a refiner's fire is meant to burn up precious ore/person?

Or the people who died must have been unworthy dross.

Were all of the people who died in Missouri unworthy dross? How about Ishmael, who died for listening to Lehi's call to leave Jerusalem?

nice try, Ishmael was an old dude. Do you realize that you are comparing 1 old guy's death to 200+ with ~20% of the people dying?

And their journey wasn't senseless, whereas the handcart companies could have easily waited for spring. Instead BY et al said, "Send it!"

[LDS Watchman]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Their suffering wasn't senseless. They were being forged by the refiners fire.

So a refiner's fire is meant to burn up precious ore/person?

Or the people who died must have been unworthy dross.

Were all of the people who died in Missouri unworthy dross? How about Ishmael, who died for listening to Lehi's call to leave Jerusalem?

nice try, Ishmael was an old dude. Do you realize that you are comparing 1 old guy's death to 200+ with ~20% of the people dying?

And their journey wasn't senseless, whereas the handcart companies could have easily waited for spring. Instead BY et al said, "Send it!"

Was it senseless for the people to gather to Missouri and suffer or die when they could have just waited somewhere safe and for the Lord to tell them to gather to Nauvoo or Utah?

And if you're going to dismiss Ishmael's death because he was old, then I'm assuming that the old who died in the handcart companies don't count in your book either, right?

[Reluctant Watchman]

The distinction is simple. Ishmael was following a true, yet imperfect, prophet. The Brighamite saints were following a false prophet and a blatant liar.

[LDS Watchman]

The distinction is simple. Ishmael was following a true, yet imperfect, prophet. The Brighamite saints were following a false prophet and a blatant liar.

Wrong as usual.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The distinction is simple. Ishmael was following a true, yet imperfect, prophet. The Brighamite saints were following a false prophet and a blatant liar.

Wrong as usual.

According to you, yes.

[Thinker]

Pretend Ref here…

Anyone who knows me may find this incredibly hard to believe, but I’ve had my fair share of squabbles. At some point it may be good to just acknowledge that:

We simply see things differently.
In some cases it may be “We are not compatible.”
No blaming ourselves or the other - we just are walking different mental paths.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Pretend Ref here…

Anyone who knows me may find this incredibly hard to believe, but I’ve had my fair share of squabbles. At some point it may be good to just acknowledge that:

We simply see things differently.
In some cases it may be “We are not compatible.”
No blaming ourselves or the other - we just are walking different mental paths.

And sometimes people can be wrong, like seriously wrong.

[LDS Watchman]

Pretend Ref here…

Anyone who knows me may find this incredibly hard to believe, but I’ve had my fair share of squabbles. At some point it may be good to just acknowledge that:

We simply see things differently.
In some cases it may be “We are not compatible.”
No blaming ourselves or the other - we just are walking different mental paths.

And sometimes people can be wrong, like seriously wrong.

Agreed.

And if a person is repeatedly unable to back up their claims, then that's a sure sigh that they are wrong, like seriously wrong.

[ransomme]

So a refiner's fire is meant to burn up precious ore/person?

Or the people who died must have been unworthy dross.

Were all of the people who died in Missouri unworthy dross? How about Ishmael, who died for listening to Lehi's call to leave Jerusalem?

nice try, Ishmael was an old dude. Do you realize that you are comparing 1 old guy's death to 200+ with ~20% of the people dying?

And their journey wasn't senseless, whereas the handcart companies could have easily waited for spring. Instead BY et al said, "Send it!"

Was it senseless for the people to gather to Missouri and suffer or die when they could have just waited somewhere safe and for the Lord to tell them to gather to Nauvoo or Utah?

And if you're going to dismiss Ishmael's death because he was old, then I'm assuming that the old who died in the handcart companies don't count in your book either, right?

nope, me having and eating my cake too

[jreuben]

The leaders of the church and the church as a whole are simply apostatized. It happened circa 1890. It's that simple. The problem we have had is that folks don't want to give up a belief that the church is still operating with full ratification from the Lord.... and this is largely due to laziness and a lulling away in security as per prophecy. No one wants to accept the ownership and responsibility of personal revelation, recognition of corruption and ultimately the duty to rise up and remove and replace ALL of the leadership of the church. This would also mean bringing back the Council of Fifty and understanding that the Church of the Firstborn must be comprehended and implemented openly.

Ultimately we are a lazy and slothful people that are under the condemnation of the Lord - yes, including those of us here since we are not brave enough to really put the ax to the root or start a sufficiently pure organization as openly and fully as did Brother Joseph - a true and lasting prophet that did in fact restore the gospel and priesthood. We are no more than the fallen Hebrews passing around the priesthood offices, but lacking the power to exercise its rights and the fullness of miracles except in cases where there is remarkable faith that evokes such.

[LDS Watchman]

Were all of the people who died in Missouri unworthy dross? How about Ishmael, who died for listening to Lehi's call to leave Jerusalem?

nice try, Ishmael was an old dude. Do you realize that you are comparing 1 old guy's death to 200+ with ~20% of the people dying?

And their journey wasn't senseless, whereas the handcart companies could have easily waited for spring. Instead BY et al said, "Send it!"

Was it senseless for the people to gather to Missouri and suffer or die when they could have just waited somewhere safe and for the Lord to tell them to gather to Nauvoo or Utah?

And if you're going to dismiss Ishmael's death because he was old, then I'm assuming that the old who died in the handcart companies don't count in your book either, right?

nope, me having and eating my cake too

So it's only a problem for you if people suffer and die following Brigham Young, not other prophets. Okay, got it.

[ransomme]

nice try, Ishmael was an old dude. Do you realize that you are comparing 1 old guy's death to 200+ with ~20% of the people dying?

And their journey wasn't senseless, whereas the handcart companies could have easily waited for spring. Instead BY et al said, "Send it!"

Was it senseless for the people to gather to Missouri and suffer or die when they could have just waited somewhere safe and for the Lord to tell them to gather to Nauvoo or Utah?

And if you're going to dismiss Ishmael's death because he was old, then I'm assuming that the old who died in the handcart companies don't count in your book either, right?

nope, me having and eating my cake too

So it's only a problem for you if people suffer and die following Brigham Young, not other prophets. Okay, got it.

lol, no sense of humor, noted.

No, if you want to scratch a couple of old people off the Willy and Martin Handcart companies' death toll it's not going to change much.

Lehi/Nephi weren't wrong, while BY et al were. If you don't see the difference in that, then I don't know what to think about you other than you are so stubborn that you would rather die on a petty hill.

Atticus planting his flag...

[Subcomandante]

The leaders of the church and the church as a whole are simply apostatized. It happened circa 1890. It's that simple. The problem we have had is that folks don't want to give up a belief that the church is still operating with full ratification from the Lord.... and this is largely due to laziness and a lulling away in security as per prophecy. No one wants to accept the ownership and responsibility of personal revelation, recognition of corruption and ultimately the duty to rise up and remove and replace ALL of the leadership of the church. This would also mean bringing back the Council of Fifty and understanding that the Church of the Firstborn must be comprehended and implemented openly.

Ultimately we are a lazy and slothful people that are under the condemnation of the Lord - yes, including those of us here since we are not brave enough to really put the ax to the root or start a sufficiently pure organization as openly and fully as did Brother Joseph - a true and lasting prophet that did in fact restore the gospel and priesthood. We are no more than the fallen Hebrews passing around the priesthood offices, but lacking the power to exercise its rights and the fullness of miracles except in cases where there is remarkable faith that evokes such.

Jreuben,

Interesting commentary that you put in red. Why do you think, personally, that this has not happened yet?

Or could it be that the Lord has called prophets to lead His Church, and that the same structure (with modifications to account for a much larger member base), has remained unsullied since the Prophet Joseph?

Or could it be one of these breakaway guys (like Snuffer, Davis, or that Brazilian dude with what is called the Sealed Portion), that might be the person you're looking for?

[jreuben]

@atticus perhaps you're not aware or familiar with history. It was essentially forbidden/discouraged and understood that you were NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT to call the president of the church the prophet up until McCay and J. Reuben Clark's death. Brother Clark made sure to stop this impure practice, but the communists and luciferians within the church made sure to alter this and appeal to the pride of McKay and thus started the adoration of the church presidents. See: viewtopic.php?p=1190883#p1190883

It is important to understand you are ascribing a title to these men that is not accurate and is in fact impure and unholy and thus you are falling victim and promulgating iniquity.

[jreuben]

@Subcomandante there is more than sufficient evidence that demonstrates how brother Woodruff facilitated - perhaps unwittingly at some level - the apostasy during his tenure as president. They were scared and so my sympathy goes out somewhat, but they gave in nonetheless and that was a terrible disaster and the downfall. They gave into the communists that had already taken hold of the USA. It is completely provable that the Civil War, for example, was the capitulation of the nation into the hands of the communists (specifically the Rothschilds admitted to having brought this down for their own purposes; this is documented and provable). President Woodruff was at the end of a gun in more ways than one and he had to facilitate the church to capitulate to the multifold demands of them. He had every intention of rolling this back shortly after the "Manifesto", but ultimately was murdered before he could do so and sadly too few knew of his plan to actually enact it. Thus the blind following proceeded and in full adherence to the luciferians' plans.

No, current breakaways are NOT prophets as far as I have known any of them thus far. I have received no spiritual witness and none of them are sufficiently compelling and appear to themselves be pawns.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Or could it be that the Lord has called prophets to lead His Church, and that the same structure (with modifications to account for a much larger member base), has remained unsullied since the Prophet Joseph?

We should only call a person a "prophet" if they exhibit the fruits of a prophet. What those fruits are should be evaluated or determined on an individual basis with the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The title of prophet should never be a blanket statement to sustain any man. All things should be examined with the Spirit.

[LDS Watchman]

Was it senseless for the people to gather to Missouri and suffer or die when they could have just waited somewhere safe and for the Lord to tell them to gather to Nauvoo or Utah?

And if you're going to dismiss Ishmael's death because he was old, then I'm assuming that the old who died in the handcart companies don't count in your book either, right?

nope, me having and eating my cake too

So it's only a problem for you if people suffer and die following Brigham Young, not other prophets. Okay, got it.

lol, no sense of humor, noted.

No, if you want to scratch a couple of old people off the Willy and Martin Handcart companies' death toll it's not going to change much.

Lehi/Nephi weren't wrong, while BY et al were. If you don't see the difference in that, then I don't know what to think about you other than you are so stubborn that you would rather die on a petty hill.

Atticus planting his flag...

I have a sense of humor, I just don't find your false accusation and double standard against Brigham Young funny.

I'm not the one being petty here. You're the one who is digging in and refusing to retract your false accusation against Brigham Young and resorting to judging him by a different standard than you judge Joseph Smith or Lehi.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll be open with you Atticus. We can disagree on a myriad of doctrinal and historical topics, but when you repeatedly respond by restating a person's stance in a way that puts them down or twists their opinion, that is when I lose any interest in continuing the conversation.

[LDS Watchman]

@atticus perhaps you're not aware or familiar with history. It was essentially forbidden/discouraged and understood that you were NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT to call the president of the church the prophet up until McCay and J. Reuben Clark's death. Brother Clark made sure to stop this impure practice, but the communists and luciferians within the church made sure to alter this and appeal to the pride of McKay and thus started the adoration of the church presidents. See: viewtopic.php?p=1190883#p1190883

It is important to understand you are ascribing a title to these men that is not accurate and is in fact impure and unholy and thus you are falling victim and promulgating iniquity.

This is the Denver Snuffer version of history. Which is as usual false.

The real history shows that presidents of the church and apostles were sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators all the way back in the days of Joseph Smith.

[HereWeGo]

Pretend Ref here…

Anyone who knows me may find this incredibly hard to believe, but I’ve had my fair share of squabbles. At some point it may be good to just acknowledge that:

We simply see things differently.
In some cases it may be “We are not compatible.”
No blaming ourselves or the other - we just are walking different mental paths.

Good point Thinker. Remember though, we were all like this when we were young. Black and white. Right or wrong. Up or down. Nothing in the middle. We use to love debating because we knew everything. We had to prove that we were right or else that meant that we were wrong. Age and life experiences helped us move beyond thinking in absolutes. We found that we did not have to defend every challenge that came back at us. We found it easier and more satisfying to just smile and walk away. These unrelenting debaters are most likely still young, or at least have not moved beyond that mental stage of life. They will eventually chill out. Until that time, I have found it useful to block people when they go on and on ad nausium so that my time isn't wasted. I then unblock them when I find that they finally stop.

[LDS Watchman]

I'll be open with you Atticus. We can disagree on a myriad of doctrinal and historical topics, but when you repeatedly respond by restating a person's stance in a way that puts them down or twists their opinion, that is when I lose any interest in continuing the conversation.

I think your projecting.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll be open with you Atticus. We can disagree on a myriad of doctrinal and historical topics, but when you repeatedly respond by restating a person's stance in a way that puts them down or twists their opinion, that is when I lose any interest in continuing the conversation.

I think your projecting.

Then I learned from the best.

[LDS Watchman]

I'll be open with you Atticus. We can disagree on a myriad of doctrinal and historical topics, but when you repeatedly respond by restating a person's stance in a way that puts them down or twists their opinion, that is when I lose any interest in continuing the conversation.

I think your projecting.

Then I learned from the best.

You can't blame your bad behavior on me.