LDS Freedom Forum

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:41 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

What is the definition of spiritual death? Separation from God. It is exactly what they believe they did to these people they excommunicated. So absolutely they tried to kill them spiritually.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:46 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:41 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

What is the definition of spiritual death? Separation from God. It is exactly what they believe they did to these people they excommunicated. So absolutely they tried to kill them spiritually.

That's a nice motte and bailey.

"They would kill Jesus just like the Romans did!"
"No they wouldn't. That's ridiculous."
"Well, they'd excommunicate, which is basically the same thing."

If you meant excommunicate, you would have said so. Instead, you made a ridiculous claim that they would crucify him. When you were called on it, you immediately ran away from your claim because it was obviously indefensible.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:50 pm You do know what excommunication then was death… right?

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:53 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:46 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:41 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

What is the definition of spiritual death? Separation from God. It is exactly what they believe they did to these people they excommunicated. So absolutely they tried to kill them spiritually.

That's a nice motte and bailey.

"They would kill Jesus just like the Romans did!"
"No they wouldn't. That's ridiculous."
"Well, they'd excommunicate, which is basically the same thing."

If you meant excommunicate, you would have said so. Instead, you made a ridiculous claim that they would crucify him. When you were called on it, you immediately ran away from your claim because it was obviously indefensible.

I'm actually sad for you, have you even read your scriptures? if so you don't understand them

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:59 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

Crucifixion was the Jewish way of excommunicating a person. Hence one of the reasons Christ was crucified. The LDS church “crucifies” many members today.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:50 pm You do know what excommunication then was death… right?

So we're just making things up now, huh?

A herem was not an execution.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:27 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 11:42 am
When God commands his children to go through things he provides a way.

He doesn't send his children on senseless harmful journeys.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Their suffering wasn't senseless. They were being forged by the refiners fire.

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:16 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:50 pm You do know what excommunication then was death… right?

So we're just making things up now, huh?

A herem was not an execution.

You brought up the Dannites....going out and executing people is exactly what Brigham Young was doing, murdering people with the blood atonement doctrine. Why is this relevant? The church has not denounced Brigham Young, heck the church colleges are named after him. We as a church do not call Bingham Young what he was, a murder and adulterer. So why don't we do exactly that? Because we have this foolish doctrine and false logic that because Joseph Smith was a prophet then Brigham was too and Russel M Nelson is a prophet too just because they were. We don't believe Isaiah was a prophet because Moses was, we believe they are prophets because of what they said and did. So If we were to denounce Brigham the whole church is laid bare and we would have to take each "Prophet" by their words and actions, The current LDS leaders are very comfortable resting on this corrupt logic and sandy foundation of Brigham Young and thus in the end it will the church fall and "Great will be the fall of It"

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:59 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

Crucifixion was the Jewish way of excommunicating a person. Hence one of the reasons Christ was crucified. The LDS church “crucifies” many members today.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:23 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:16 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:50 pm You do know what excommunication then was death… right?

So we're just making things up now, huh?

A herem was not an execution.

You brought up the Dannites....going out and executing people is exactly what Brigham Young was doing, murdering people with the blood atonement doctrine. Why is this relevant? The church has not denounced Brigham Young, heck the church colleges are named after him. We as a church do not call Bingham Young what he was, a murder and adulterer. So why don't we do exactly that? Because we have this foolish doctrine and false logic that because Joseph Smith was a prophet then Brigham was too and Russel M Nelson is a prophet too just because they were. We don't believe Isaiah was a prophet because Moses was, we believe they are prophets because of what they said and did. So If we were to denounce Brigham the whole church is laid bare and we would have to take each "Prophet" by their words and actions, The current LDS leaders are very comfortable resting on this corrupt logic and sandy foundation of Brigham Young and thus in the end it will the church fall and "Great will be the fall of It"

Lol! You actually believe in the danites killing people for Brigham? Ha!

I'm still waiting for any evidence, or even a credible argument, that the church would literally crucify someone who criticized them.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:23 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:16 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:50 pm You do know what excommunication then was death… right?

So we're just making things up now, huh?

A herem was not an execution.

You brought up the Dannites....going out and executing people is exactly what Brigham Young was doing, murdering people with the blood atonement doctrine. Why is this relevant? The church has not denounced Brigham Young, heck the church colleges are named after him. We as a church do not call Bingham Young what he was, a murder and adulterer. So why don't we do exactly that? Because we have this foolish doctrine and false logic that because Joseph Smith was a prophet then Brigham was too and Russel M Nelson is a prophet too just because they were. We don't believe Isaiah was a prophet because Moses was, we believe they are prophets because of what they said and did. So If we were to denounce Brigham the whole church is laid bare and we would have to take each "Prophet" by their words and actions, The current LDS leaders are very comfortable resting on this corrupt logic and sandy foundation of Brigham Young and thus in the end it will the church fall and "Great will be the fall of It"

Lol! You actually believe in the danites killing people for Brigham? Ha!

I'm still waiting for any evidence, or even a credible argument, that the church would literally crucify someone who criticized them.

OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:36 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:23 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:16 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

So we're just making things up now, huh?

A herem was not an execution.

You brought up the Dannites....going out and executing people is exactly what Brigham Young was doing, murdering people with the blood atonement doctrine. Why is this relevant? The church has not denounced Brigham Young, heck the church colleges are named after him. We as a church do not call Bingham Young what he was, a murder and adulterer. So why don't we do exactly that? Because we have this foolish doctrine and false logic that because Joseph Smith was a prophet then Brigham was too and Russel M Nelson is a prophet too just because they were. We don't believe Isaiah was a prophet because Moses was, we believe they are prophets because of what they said and did. So If we were to denounce Brigham the whole church is laid bare and we would have to take each "Prophet" by their words and actions, The current LDS leaders are very comfortable resting on this corrupt logic and sandy foundation of Brigham Young and thus in the end it will the church fall and "Great will be the fall of It"

Lol! You actually believe in the danites killing people for Brigham? Ha!

I'm still waiting for any evidence, or even a credible argument, that the church would literally crucify someone who criticized them.

I could see the church turning a blind eye to another crucifixion of the actual Christ. I know that's not the same thing as doing it.

They would probably just ignore him at first. They'd likely say the rumors of his miracles have been debunked by the wise and thoughtful leaders of the government. Then the media would make up some outlandish story that he killed, raped or said something racist. Once the trial concluded and the death penalty was imposed, the church would probably decline to comment but point people to article of faith #12 for reference on their policy regarding government decisions.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:51 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:50 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:44 pm The garbage displayed over the last few months is absolutely reason to disobey and “overthrow” world governments.

Do you trust your government, Atti?

I don't agree with much of what when on during Covid. I think many people panicked and blew things out of proportion.

But, I don't think this is justification to overthrow all governments of the world.

But do you trust your government?

My trust is in God, and not worldy institutions.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:31 am I'm curious where the breaking point is for most current TBMs...

Thinker wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 5:51 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:31 am I'm curious where the breaking point is for most current TBMs...

When they feel pain from it.

Sadly, their hearts are cold towards others who are already suffering.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 2:03 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:59 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

Crucifixion was the Jewish way of excommunicating a person. Hence one of the reasons Christ was crucified. The LDS church “crucifies” many members today.

This one's pretty dumb, even for you.

Crucifixion was a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one.

Jews excommunicated people through exile, or by declaring them herem (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herem_(censure))

h_p wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 5:48 pm So if someone is a little sick and doesn't think it's a big deal, then it gets a little worse, and a little worse, and then once it gets really bad they seek help too late and die, then they were murdered?

I'm sorry, but that's insane.

I'm talking specifically about Covid. I don't know what you're talking about. "Seeking help too late" means they go to the hospital when they can't breathe, because knowledge of and access to early treatment was withheld and suppressed with full knowledge of the consequences. And then practically the only thing they were allowed to be treated with was essentially a poison.

I'm not sorry, but that's murder.

cwass wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 pm

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 5:30 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:00 pm
I don't know a single person who has died or had a serious reaction to the vax. A few people have told me that their arm hurt for a day or they felt under the weather for a day and that's it.

Meanwhile 3 people close to me have died from Covid. Two family friends and my own mother in law. One died before the vaccine was available and the other two refused to get it because of their political views.

My brother in law, who also chose not to get the vaccine, nearly died from Covid, too.

People who died from Covid was because they were MISTREATED in the hospitals. Vital treatment that really helps is being withheld and things that kill are being used instead. (Like remdesivir and ventilators) Drs just do what they are told.

My own son ended up in the hospital from Covid. He was getting better but then then his blood oxygen dropped. He went to emergency where they immediately admitted him. They were rude to him because he was not vaxxed. He told them (under my request) to NOT give him remdesivir. They said ok. They then put him on medication that made him extremely drowsy. Because his wife was home very sick with Covid at the same time (and she IS VAXXED) there was no one to advocate for him in the hospital. After several days and him not being able to speak for himself because he was so drugged up, they told him he needed the remdesivir. I was pissed when I found out. ALL he needed when he entered the hospital was help breathing via oxygen which made a difference.

If remdesivir really made a difference as drs claim, it would be like Tamiflu that needs to be given within 48 hours of coming down with the flu. They gave it to my son 2 weeks after he got sick. Remdesivir shuts the kidneys down. (if he has problems with kidney function in the future I will know what to blame.)

My mother had a stroke days after her 2nd dose. My brother who is fit as a fiddle, eats healthy, always hikes, got blood clots in his lungs days after his 2nd dose. My nieces face swelled up after her 2nd dose. My other niece got deathly Ill with both her injections. And my nephew ended up in the hospital after his 2nd dose. 2 weeks later he was dead. Autopsy showed blood clots throughout his whole body, and his organs were ALL greatly damaged. Drs were stunned. Do you think they even thought the vax was a possible cause? No. Because they are taught in medical school to always trust Pharma. The wiser ones are too afraid to speak up in fear of losing their jobs. There was no question in my mind though.

I also know plenty of people in my ward who in the past year have come down with strange health issues. Coincidence? Possibly, but many of the (smart) drs who aren’t afraid of speaking up say it’s because the vax shoots your immune system to heck. ADE (Antibody dependent Enhancement)

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I work in the emergency room and can confirm the rudeness and mistreatment of the unvaxxed. Small story, was working late one night. Parents brought their 6 month old child who was sick. Doctor comes in and asks the parents if they are vaccinated. They both say no, doctor walks out and does not come back. Does not treat the child. To the credit of the vaccinated nurse, she was mortified. She treated the child and wrote the doctor up. The general feeling that I've seen on many occasions is that "oh, you have covid and are unvaccinated? I guess you got what you deserved.".

ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:51 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:50 pm

I don't agree with much of what when on during Covid. I think many people panicked and blew things out of proportion.

But, I don't think this is justification to overthrow all governments of the world.

But do you trust your government?

My trust is in God, and not worldy institutions.

But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.

Hmm that also applied to the Russian and Chinese members... So if those members should listen to governments I suppose we can too.

Anyone who "listens" to their government, more often than not, will err.

Governments exist on the principle of force, by the threat of force. Governments always need to be held accountable by righteous citizens, because all governments gravitate towards tyranny.

larsenb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:33 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:56 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 3:51 pm

But do you trust your government?

My trust is in God, and not worldy institutions.

But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.

Hmm that also applied to the Russian and Chinese members... So if those members should listen to governments I suppose we can too.

Anyone who "listens" to their government, more often than not, will err.

Governments exist on the principle of force, by the threat of force. Governments always need to be held accountable by righteous citizens, because all governments gravitate towards tyranny.

Supporting the old saw: "Quis cutodiet ipsos custodes" : Who watches the watchers?