LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 7:55 am**

h_p wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 pm
Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 5:48 pm So if someone is a little sick and doesn't think it's a big deal, then it gets a little worse, and a little worse, and then once it gets really bad they seek help too late and die, then they were murdered?

I'm sorry, but that's insane.
I'm talking specifically about Covid. I don't know what you're talking about. "Seeking help too late" means they go to the hospital when they can't breathe, because knowledge of and access to early treatment was withheld and suppressed with full knowledge of the consequences. And then practically the only thing they were allowed to be treated with was essentially a poison.

I'm not sorry, but that's murder.

I was referring to Covid specifically, too.

If you really want to insist that those who chose not to seek treatment before it was too late were murdered, then I would suggest that the "murderers" are the conspiracy theorists who kept insisting that Covid isn't dangerous and that it was just like a cold or flu.

We could possibly also add those who scared people away from getting vaccinated or told them it was evil to wear a mask to the list of "murderers."

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am**

ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.

No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 8:48 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.

Sigh.

"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Signed, the first presidency.

You're right it's not a blanket statement. It's a specific statement telling us to trust the government with what we put in our bodies. Although if we can trust them on that, I'm not sure what we can't trust them with!

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:03 am**

OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 8:48 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
Sigh.

"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Signed, the first presidency.

You're right it's not a blanket statement. It's a specific statement telling us to trust the government with what we put in our bodies. Although if we can trust them on that, I'm not sure what we can't trust them with!

This is why I believe that even if "the church" turned General Conference into Drag Queen Story Hour, Atticus would still find a way to claim that's not what it actually is. Or that the church supported homosexuality all along.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:14 am**

h_p wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:03 am
This is why I believe that even if "the church" turned General Conference into Drag Queen Story Hour, Atticus would still find a way to claim that's not what it actually is. Or that the church supported homosexuality all along.

I had the same thought. Covid was sold in such a way that the "in the boat" members justified any action by the church as being from God. Future policy or doctrine will be handled the same way. That's the difficulty of the "living" prophets mantra, particularly when they don't include Christ's doctrine from the BoM. All things can and should be verified through the Spirit.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:16 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:16 am**

Talking of "thoughtful recommendations... government leaders", if you are in the breakaway republics of Crimea, Donbass and Lugansk, should you take the recommendations of the local breakaway governments or the Ukrainian government or the Russian government?

What about an illegal Jewish settlement in the West Bank? Would that be the Israeli government, or the Palestinian authority or neither?

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:18 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.

One of our stake presidency did recently. He said we should obey worldly authority, and that even though they make mistakes, it was a test.

He even linked Satan's rebellion against God's authority to those who rebel against government restrictions.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:19 am**

Who here thinks that the US government is either “wise” or “thoughtful”?

Serious question.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:23 am**

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:19 am Who here thinks that the US government is either “wise” or “thoughtful”?

Serious question.

Well, they did at least think through how they were going to execute the plandemic: https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:31 am**

OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 8:48 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
Sigh.

"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Signed, the first presidency.

You're right it's not a blanket statement. It's a specific statement telling us to trust the government with what we put in our bodies. Although if we can trust them on that, I'm not sure what we can't trust them with!

That's not a blanket statement to trust our governments.

Got anything else?

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 9:36 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:31 am
OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 8:48 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
Sigh.

"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Signed, the first presidency.

You're right it's not a blanket statement. It's a specific statement telling us to trust the government with what we put in our bodies. Although if we can trust them on that, I'm not sure what we can't trust them with!
That's not a blanket statement to trust our governments.

Got anything else?

^Tell me you didn't read my reply without actually telling me

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 10:16 am**

Niemand wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:18 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
One of our stake presidency did recently. He said we should obey worldly authority, and that even though they make mistakes, it was a test.

He even linked Satan's rebellion against God's authority to those who rebel against government restrictions.

I know this shouldn’t surprise me, but it’s stuff like this that continually has me shaking my head. Did we (they) learn nothing from the Book of Mormon?

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 10:23 am**

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 10:16 am
Niemand wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:18 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 3:52 am
But God's spokesman told you to trust your government.
No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
One of our stake presidency did recently. He said we should obey worldly authority, and that even though they make mistakes, it was a test.

He even linked Satan's rebellion against God's authority to those who rebel against government restrictions.
I know this shouldn’t surprise me, but it’s stuff like this that continually has me shaking my head. Did we (they) learn nothing from the Book of Mormon?

Of course we did! We learned how to repeat the same mistakes.

In all seriousness, the BofM sets us up for the reverse of what we see with the church. In the BofM, it’s always prophets coming to the rescue of freedom, rights, religious liberty, etc. Every time society runs off the track, some great BofM prophet is there to set them straight and teach truth again. One might even come away from the BofM expecting the same from modern prophets.

What one wouldn’t expect is for modern prophets to be in lock step with the corrupt governments, or trending towards the ills of society rather than the kingdom of God. I think that’s probably one thing that jars any faithful BofM readers - the contrast is rather stark.

We’d much rather have Nephi on the garden wall declaring our sins to us and being hauled in front of judges than have him siding with them.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 10:32 am**

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 10:23 am What one wouldn’t expect is for modern prophets to be in lock step with the corrupt governments, or trending towards the ills of society rather than the kingdom of God. I think that’s probably one thing that jars any faithful BofM readers - the contrast is rather stark.

Yes, it’s difficult to think that “prophets” of LDS org would do such a thing. But even the BoM gives us a clear example of church leaders being in lock step with corruption. I believe this is happening in our day, however crazy this may sound to church members: (3 Nephi 6)

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.
28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.
29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.
30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings.

It’s quite ironic that Oaks was both a lawyer, judge, and high priest. The perfect trifecta of corruption.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 10:55 am**

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 10:32 am
iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 10:23 am What one wouldn’t expect is for modern prophets to be in lock step with the corrupt governments, or trending towards the ills of society rather than the kingdom of God. I think that’s probably one thing that jars any faithful BofM readers - the contrast is rather stark.
Yes, it’s difficult to think that “prophets” of LDS org would do such a thing. But even the BoM gives us a clear example of church leaders being in lock step with corruption. I believe this is happening in our day, however crazy this may sound to church members: (3 Nephi 6)

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.
28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.
29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.
30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings.

It’s quite ironic that Oaks was both a lawyer, judge, and high priest. The perfect trifecta of corruption.

Even worse is the implication that the chief judge or governor was murdered in plain public view and no one seemed to feel bad about it.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 10:57 am**

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:19 am Who here thinks that the US government is either “wise” or “thoughtful”?

Serious question.

Neither, they praise a cowardly buffoon as a leader. Following a fool makes a fool

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 11:42 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:48 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 4:41 pm
No that is pretty much a foregone conclusion in those days if you leave too late. BY et al used their position to tell people to come and they listened to their detriment.

Your apologetic, first-and-always, ways just don't allow you to look and see the obvious. It also seems to be a source of your muddled, twisted arguments. Saying that people died in Nauvoo from "expose and disease" and comparing that city life to the handcart companies that headed out west (to be exposed to harsh seasonal elements out in the wilderness) later than sense warranted are the same...???
Have you considered that God wanted the Willy and Martin handcart companies to go through what they did?

Those who survived learned to put their trust fully in God. They experienced incredible miracles. They passed through the refiners fire.

When God commands his children to go through things he provides a way.

He doesn't send his children on senseless harmful journeys.

Also those that sent them tried to hide it afterwards because they were embarrassed and felt guilty and had to distance themselves.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 12:01 pm**

Furthermore, we should have been seeing healings. We should have been seeing people raised from the dead. We should have been all called out to exercise the priesthood that we supposedly have with great faith and confidence. Here, we had a golden opportunity, but our church leaders shrank and hid themselves. Cowardly, they called us to distance ourselves from one another. Cowardly, they shut the doors of our meetinghouses to those who would not comply. Cowardly, they told us to trust evil men and women. Cowardly, they told us to violate our temples by injecting unknown substances into our bodies provided by evil men and women. Cowardly, they told us to bend the knee to satan's church.

These men are not Godly men. They speak of our Savior with their lips, but they deny the power thereof.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 12:13 pm**

OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:36 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:31 am
OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 8:48 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:59 am

No, this is not true. Our leaders never made any blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.
Sigh.

"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Signed, the first presidency.

You're right it's not a blanket statement. It's a specific statement telling us to trust the government with what we put in our bodies. Although if we can trust them on that, I'm not sure what we can't trust them with!
That's not a blanket statement to trust our governments.

Got anything else?
^Tell me you didn't read my reply without actually telling me

Looks like I missed your where you admitted that this wasn't a blanket statement telling us to trust our governments.

They also didn't say to trust the government with what we put into our bodies.

They told us to "follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Which means when our governments and medical experts make wise and thoughtful recommendations we should follow these recommendations.

It doesn't mean that we should blindly follow all government recommendations.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 12:27 pm**

ransomme wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 11:42 am
When God commands his children to go through things he provides a way.

He doesn't send his children on senseless harmful journeys.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Their suffering wasn't senseless. They were being forged by the refiners fire.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 12:34 pm**

I suspect almost all of us will have the experience of mourning because of the evil we defended.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm**

On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 1:19 pm**

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You make an interesting point.

Posted: **April 17th, 2022, 1:26 pm**

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 12:44 pm On this Easter Sunday I can't help think about the time of Jesus and make comparisons between the federal government and Rome, the Jewish leadership and the current LDS leadership. Jerusalem and SLC. If Christ were to come today as he did in the meridian of time, I have know doubt the current leadership would have crucified him just as the Jews and Romans did.

You imagine that Jesus would have criticized the church, and the church would ... kill him for it? You know there are people who criticize the church now. Is the church sending out the danites after the CES letter guy, or Snuffer, or anyone else?

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