LDS Freedom Forum

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:02 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

How is that a false comparison?

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:10 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

You don’t understand the vaxxeen was designed to gather Zion.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:14 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:02 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

How is that a false comparison?

Joseph Smith was calling people to come to Christ, and build Zion. The people harmed following Joseph we harmed by persecutors. (Indirect)

People following President Nelson who were harmed by being vaxxed etc. were harmed directly by what President Nelson was urging them to inject into their bodies. (Direct)

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:49 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:33 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:27 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:18 am

That makes no sense either. They practice overkill on the shots because it is easier than finding out what the actual regulations are for each country? Nope, not buying it. They don't give yellow fever injections to everyone to cover their bases, they only do in REQUIRED countries. They know the laws in every country and could easily follow them. No blanket boosters needed. They wanted boosters for all, not because all the countries needed it or might get mad. There is no good reason for ALL to get it. Unless we are just that lazy that we can't take time to find out what countries each require.

Yellow fever is not a global pandemic, as the areas that have yellow fever, malaria, and other diseases like that are localized to one region. If there were to be a mutated strain of yellow fever that started affecting everyone in temperate and polar climates, then yes, you could bet that the yellow fever requirement would be made global and not to just the countries that require it.

Coronavirus has hit virtually everywhere and you have a multitude of different approaches to handling the coronavirus. Some countries like Mexico have been VERY lenient. Others like Colombia, Peru, and Argentina were significantly stricter, to the point of not even letting in missionaries into their own chapels unless they presented the vaccination certificate, as one poster here complained about in the case of Colombia. Others still were just flat-out draconian. And then there's China who just blows everyone out of the water about how strict they have been.

So for something like this, of course the Church is going to apply the strictest standards as far as vaccination requirements go because COVID is a global problem. This is a good thing, because that lets the missionary work proceed in the best way possible.

Again, it is not required. The shots carry a risk. There was zero need and it was forced on those already serving for no good reason. You can make excuses till the cows come home, but it is wrong to force a shot that was NOT needed to carry on the work, and then act as if it was needed to carry on the work. Tired, old excuse.

In many countries, vaccines still remain a requirement. There is a need to observe and obey local public health regulations. The reason for it being "forced" on those already serving was that it was the law in many of those places. Imagine having the religious registration of the Church revoked in an area because people took it upon themselves to flout the local regulations. What does that mean? No missionary work can happen there and no Church services can happen in that region.

Mexico, despite it being quite lenient concerning COVID restrictions, has laws on the books regarding religious activity and there is a regulation on there permitting the secretary in charge of religious affairs to shut down the registration of a religious group that insists on flouting sanitary requirements. This is why, even after the letter from the prophet came saying that masks were now optional depending on local conditions, there continues to be mask mandates for the chapels in Mexico, and they will remain for the foreseeable future according to information that I am privy to.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:16 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:10 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

You don’t understand the vaxxeen was designed to gather Zion.

Please read this exchange again. The conversation was about people being called to gather to zion and some dying and suffering because if it.

It had nothing to do with the vaccine.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 10:41 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:16 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:10 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

You don’t understand the vaxxeen was designed to gather Zion.

Please read this exchange again. The conversation was about people being called to gather to zion and some dying and suffering because if it.

It had nothing to do with the vaccine.

Oh I wasn’t referring to you, just sharing my deeply held belief that the vaxxeen is the savior of the world.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 10:55 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 10:41 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:16 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:10 am

You don’t understand the vaxxeen was designed to gather Zion.

Please read this exchange again. The conversation was about people being called to gather to zion and some dying and suffering because if it.

It had nothing to do with the vaccine.

Oh I wasn’t referring to you, just sharing my deeply held belief that the vaxxeen is the savior of the world.

Oh, so this was an act of random mocking, not a lack of reading comprehension.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:15 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 7:16 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:13 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 1:54 pm
Those who falsely accuse them are wrong to do so. But what about those who correctly discern what has been done?

And whose to say that those who think they've "correctly discerned what has been done" and now feel justified in railing against the brethren night and day aren't deceived by the adversary and just a bunch of bitter apostates?

The Holy Ghost is the one to say!!! He is the one to lead us unto all truth, not the prophet. It's ironic that President Nelson told us that we can't walk on borrowed light, even President Nelson's light. I'm confident he was right about that.

Yes, the Holy Ghost is the one who reveals truth.

But who's to say you are listening to the Holy Ghost and not some false spirit?

"... nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God." -Joseph Smith

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 12:27 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:15 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 7:16 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:13 pm

And whose to say that those who think they've "correctly discerned what has been done" and now feel justified in railing against the brethren night and day aren't deceived by the adversary and just a bunch of bitter apostates?

The Holy Ghost is the one to say!!! He is the one to lead us unto all truth, not the prophet. It's ironic that President Nelson told us that we can't walk on borrowed light, even President Nelson's light. I'm confident he was right about that.

Yes, the Holy Ghost is the one who reveals truth.

But who's to say you are listening to the Holy Ghost and not some false spirit?

"... nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God." -Joseph Smith

By their fruit ye shall know them.

Number of people I know who died of Covid: 0
Number of people I know who died after the vax: 2
Anecdotal, maybe. But seems a lot of other people have the same experience.

Also, I studied demographics for a decade before Covid, so I can't be fooled about the data.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:00 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 12:27 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:15 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 7:16 pm

The Holy Ghost is the one to say!!! He is the one to lead us unto all truth, not the prophet. It's ironic that President Nelson told us that we can't walk on borrowed light, even President Nelson's light. I'm confident he was right about that.

Yes, the Holy Ghost is the one who reveals truth.

But who's to say you are listening to the Holy Ghost and not some false spirit?

"... nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God." -Joseph Smith

By their fruit ye shall know them.

Number of people I know who died of Covid: 0
Number of people I know who died after the vax: 2
Anecdotal, maybe. But seems a lot of other people have the same experience.

Also, I studied demographics for a decade before Covid, so I can't be fooled about the data.

We'll if we're using anecdotal evidence to try the spirits now and determine whether a spirit is the Holy Ghost or a false one, I guess the Holy Ghost is confused or playing tricks on people.

Here's my anecdotal evidence:

I don't know a single person who has died or had a serious reaction to the vax. A few people have told me that their arm hurt for a day or they felt under the weather for a day and that's it.

Meanwhile 3 people close to me have died from Covid. Two family friends and my own mother in law. One died before the vaccine was available and the other two refused to get it because of their political views.

My brother in law, who also chose not to get the vaccine, nearly died from Covid, too.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:16 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:10 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

You don’t understand the vaxxeen was designed to gather Zion.

Please read this exchange again. The conversation was about people being called to gather to zion and some dying and suffering because if it.

It had nothing to do with the vaccine.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 6:31 pm

h_p wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 5:50 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:16 pm Early members of the church sacrificed all the had to go to zion and some died along the way or were killed by mobs. Does this make Joseph Smith a killer?

We need you to die from this shot. It's for the greater good.

The number of verifiable deaths from the vaccine pales in comparison to the number of verifiable deaths from the pandemic.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:05 pm

Lemarque wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:42 am

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:33 am

Strawman.

He said TBM should be ashamed.
You said that was low.
He said not as low as Moroni chopping off head of those who wouldn't defend freedom.
You made the jump that he said TMBs heads should be chopped off.
He didn't say that.

If you don't see how truly messed up that is, I don't know what to tell you.

Atticus sees himself as a victim, and every comment a grievance opportunity.
It's very sad.

At least he's admitting that TBM's ("true believing members," as he says) in general have an "unwillingness to defend freedom" as GS said.

Nope. I admitted no such thing.

That's what GS accuses them of, since most true believing members are joining him in his plans to overthrow the governments of all nations that don't measure up to his standards.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:00 pm I don't know a single person who has died or had a serious reaction to the vax. A few people have told me that their arm hurt for a day or they felt under the weather for a day and that's it.

Meanwhile 3 people close to me have died from Covid. Two family friends and my own mother in law. One died before the vaccine was available and the other two refused to get it because of their political views.

My brother in law, who also chose not to get the vaccine, nearly died from Covid, too.

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:30 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:49 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:33 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:27 am

Yellow fever is not a global pandemic, as the areas that have yellow fever, malaria, and other diseases like that are localized to one region. If there were to be a mutated strain of yellow fever that started affecting everyone in temperate and polar climates, then yes, you could bet that the yellow fever requirement would be made global and not to just the countries that require it.

Coronavirus has hit virtually everywhere and you have a multitude of different approaches to handling the coronavirus. Some countries like Mexico have been VERY lenient. Others like Colombia, Peru, and Argentina were significantly stricter, to the point of not even letting in missionaries into their own chapels unless they presented the vaccination certificate, as one poster here complained about in the case of Colombia. Others still were just flat-out draconian. And then there's China who just blows everyone out of the water about how strict they have been.

So for something like this, of course the Church is going to apply the strictest standards as far as vaccination requirements go because COVID is a global problem. This is a good thing, because that lets the missionary work proceed in the best way possible.

Again, it is not required. The shots carry a risk. There was zero need and it was forced on those already serving for no good reason. You can make excuses till the cows come home, but it is wrong to force a shot that was NOT needed to carry on the work, and then act as if it was needed to carry on the work. Tired, old excuse.

In many countries, vaccines still remain a requirement. There is a need to observe and obey local public health regulations. The reason for it being "forced" on those already serving was that it was the law in many of those places. Imagine having the religious registration of the Church revoked in an area because people took it upon themselves to flout the local regulations. What does that mean? No missionary work can happen there and no Church services can happen in that region.

Mexico, despite it being quite lenient concerning COVID restrictions, has laws on the books regarding religious activity and there is a regulation on there permitting the secretary in charge of religious affairs to shut down the registration of a religious group that insists on flouting sanitary requirements. This is why, even after the letter from the prophet came saying that masks were now optional depending on local conditions, there continues to be mask mandates for the chapels in Mexico, and they will remain for the foreseeable future according to information that I am privy to.

It's funny that you keep bringing up the requirements to serve in countries and yet when you are proven wrong about it being a requirement you double down and keep saying it is a requirement. You were proven wrong about boosters being necessary to serve in all countries. Yet you keep spouting off how important it is to keep countries happy. The boosters were not needed to make countries happy. I am not responding again. Your circular logic is tiring.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:31 am I'm curious where the breaking point is for most current TBMs. We obviously have a few on here who were unphased by the mandates. And choose to ignore the damage caused, either due to ignorance or cognitive dissonance.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 9:06 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:24 pm It is tied to Jesus Christ and those that He has sent and sends today to be His messengers.

The challenge here is that you assume these men in SLC are the ones there Lord is speaking to. Which is not the case.

Lemarque wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:49 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:05 pm

Lemarque wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:42 am

Atticus sees himself as a victim, and every comment a grievance opportunity.
It's very sad.

At least he's admitting that TBM's ("true believing members," as he says) in general have an "unwillingness to defend freedom" as GS said.

Nope. I admitted no such thing.

That's what GS accuses them of, since most true believing members are joining him in his plans to overthrow the governments of all nations that don't measure up to his standards.

I wasn't using the word 'admitting' by it's actual definition. I was using it as a synonym. I thought you, of all people, would understand.

h_p wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 2:10 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:00 pm I don't know a single person who has died or had a serious reaction to the vax. A few people have told me that their arm hurt for a day or they felt under the weather for a day and that's it.

Meanwhile 3 people close to me have died from Covid. Two family friends and my own mother in law. One died before the vaccine was available and the other two refused to get it because of their political views.

My brother in law, who also chose not to get the vaccine, nearly died from Covid, too.

If they did not get early treatment when they got sick, or weren't even aware there was such a thing, they were murdered.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 3:05 pm That's what GS accuses them of, since most true believing members are joining him in his plans to overthrow the governments of all nations that don't measure up to his standards.