LDS Freedom Forum

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:53 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:21 pm

Which countries, in addition to Mexico and a few other areas, are not requiring proof of vaccination for travel?

Which countries are requiring boosters for people to travel to them? Which that already have people living in them require boosters? Answer- very, very few. Even those who want travelers or citizens to be vaccinated do not consider boosters to be required. Please show me which countries REQUIRE boosters.

Actually, it's still many countries:

https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel ... -travelers

Even those countries that have removed many INTERNAL restrictions, still have many EXTERNAL ones.

Others do not require vaccinations straightway, but levy heavy restrictions on those that have not been vaccinated.

You know we are talking about boosters. Fully vaccinated does not mean receiving boosters in almost every single country. Fully vaccinated in most countries means the two shot regime of AstraZeneca, pfizer, modena, etc., or if J&J, one. Why are you purposefully conflating boosters with fully vaccinated?

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:21 pm Which countries, in addition to Mexico and a few other areas, are not requiring proof of vaccination for travel?

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:08 am

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

Well you've gotta tell Jesus why he didn't incite the people he was teaching into an open rebellion against the Romans, who were FAR more tyrannical than anyone we have governing today, with maybe the exception of countries like China, North Korea, or some Central Asian nations like Turkmenistan.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:06 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:53 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:35 pm

Which countries are requiring boosters for people to travel to them? Which that already have people living in them require boosters? Answer- very, very few. Even those who want travelers or citizens to be vaccinated do not consider boosters to be required. Please show me which countries REQUIRE boosters.

Actually, it's still many countries:

https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel ... -travelers

Even those countries that have removed many INTERNAL restrictions, still have many EXTERNAL ones.

Others do not require vaccinations straightway, but levy heavy restrictions on those that have not been vaccinated.

You know we are talking about boosters. Fully vaccinated does not mean receiving boosters in almost every single country. Fully vaccinated in most countries means the two shot regime of AstraZeneca, pfizer, modena, etc., or if J&J, one. Why are you purposefully conflating boosters with fully vaccinated?

Because in many of those countries, they have different regimen to determine what constitutes fully vaccinated. Once you're past six months in some of these cases, you won't be considered fully vaccinated. Some countries as little as four months, others as long as a year. In a few other countries, a certificate showing that you had the virus but have since recovered, also counts in lieu of a vaccination, whereas in others, that won't help you.

So the Church, seeing a multitude of differing restrictions around the world, simplifies the regimen that they ask of foreign serving missionaries so that no one can be accused of flouting the rules, and no one can use that excuse to attack the Church afterwards for breaking the rules. In some countries, the results of that can be quite severe.

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:09 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 8:21 pm Which countries, in addition to Mexico and a few other areas, are not requiring proof of vaccination for travel?

I’ll bite…my bosses family is currently on vacation. I know as a fact that none are vaxxed. (They talk about it all the time) They have been in Denmark, England, and Ireland. (And other places because they have been traveling by train, bus and car in between those specified places)

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:18 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:06 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:53 am

Actually, it's still many countries:

https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel ... -travelers

Even those countries that have removed many INTERNAL restrictions, still have many EXTERNAL ones.

Others do not require vaccinations straightway, but levy heavy restrictions on those that have not been vaccinated.

You know we are talking about boosters. Fully vaccinated does not mean receiving boosters in almost every single country. Fully vaccinated in most countries means the two shot regime of AstraZeneca, pfizer, modena, etc., or if J&J, one. Why are you purposefully conflating boosters with fully vaccinated?

Because in many of those countries, they have different regimen to determine what constitutes fully vaccinated. Once you're past six months in some of these cases, you won't be considered fully vaccinated. Some countries as little as four months, others as long as a year. In a few other countries, a certificate showing that you had the virus but have since recovered, also counts in lieu of a vaccination, whereas in others, that won't help you.

So the Church, seeing a multitude of differing restrictions around the world, simplifies the regimen that they ask of foreign serving missionaries so that no one can be accused of flouting the rules, and no one can use that excuse to attack the Church afterwards for breaking the rules. In some countries, the results of that can be quite severe.

That makes no sense either. They practice overkill on the shots because it is easier than finding out what the actual regulations are for each country? Nope, not buying it. They don't give yellow fever injections to everyone to cover their bases, they only do in REQUIRED countries. They know the laws in every country and could easily follow them. No blanket boosters needed. They wanted boosters for all, not because all the countries needed it or might get mad. There is no good reason for ALL to get it. Unless we are just that lazy that we can't take time to find out what countries each require.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:27 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:18 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:06 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

You know we are talking about boosters. Fully vaccinated does not mean receiving boosters in almost every single country. Fully vaccinated in most countries means the two shot regime of AstraZeneca, pfizer, modena, etc., or if J&J, one. Why are you purposefully conflating boosters with fully vaccinated?

Because in many of those countries, they have different regimen to determine what constitutes fully vaccinated. Once you're past six months in some of these cases, you won't be considered fully vaccinated. Some countries as little as four months, others as long as a year. In a few other countries, a certificate showing that you had the virus but have since recovered, also counts in lieu of a vaccination, whereas in others, that won't help you.

So the Church, seeing a multitude of differing restrictions around the world, simplifies the regimen that they ask of foreign serving missionaries so that no one can be accused of flouting the rules, and no one can use that excuse to attack the Church afterwards for breaking the rules. In some countries, the results of that can be quite severe.

That makes no sense either. They practice overkill on the shots because it is easier than finding out what the actual regulations are for each country? Nope, not buying it. They don't give yellow fever injections to everyone to cover their bases, they only do in REQUIRED countries. They know the laws in every country and could easily follow them. No blanket boosters needed. They wanted boosters for all, not because all the countries needed it or might get mad. There is no good reason for ALL to get it. Unless we are just that lazy that we can't take time to find out what countries each require.

Yellow fever is not a global pandemic, as the areas that have yellow fever, malaria, and other diseases like that are localized to one region. If there were to be a mutated strain of yellow fever that started affecting everyone in temperate and polar climates, then yes, you could bet that the yellow fever requirement would be made global and not to just the countries that require it.

Coronavirus has hit virtually everywhere and you have a multitude of different approaches to handling the coronavirus. Some countries like Mexico have been VERY lenient. Others like Colombia, Peru, and Argentina were significantly stricter, to the point of not even letting in missionaries into their own chapels unless they presented the vaccination certificate, as one poster here complained about in the case of Colombia. Others still were just flat-out draconian. And then there's China who just blows everyone out of the water about how strict they have been.

So for something like this, of course the Church is going to apply the strictest standards as far as vaccination requirements go because COVID is a global problem. This is a good thing, because that lets the missionary work proceed in the best way possible.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:47 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:07 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 4:04 am
And therein lies a problem. He used language and his leadership position to give his personal opinion (after consulting with his (earthly) physician) the color of authority. He didn't say it was from God, he said that he "prayed often for this literal godsend."

To many, it is manipulative speech, designed to make people think one thing without saying that actual thing.

If he prayed often for this vaccine to be developed quickly, then it is, and he believes his prayers have been answered, I don't see how it's manipulative for him to express this.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 4:04 am This speech is also arguably manipulative, "Receiving the vaccine today was part of our personal efforts to be good global citizens in helping to eliminate COVID-19 from the world."
This implies that people are not good if they don't follow his personal example.

He expressed his belief that getting vaccinated was the right thing to do and actually led by example by getting vaccinated himself. He didn't tell anyone that they were a bad person if they chose not to be vaccinated.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 4:04 am as is this, "...follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."
So are people for many varied and legitimate reasons who did not follow those recommendations, neither wise nor thoughtful?

He believes that medical experts and governments around the world are trying to do the best they can to stop the spread of Covid and that the vaccine is safe.

What do you want him to say. "Resist every effort by medical experts and your government to stop the spread of Covid?"

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 4:04 am I am not making claims or statements about the Church or its leaders. Is it possible for you to understand how one might objectively view these statements as problematic?

I can see why someone who believes that the Covid 19 vaccines, lock downs, travel restrictions, mask mandates, etc. are all part of a global conspiracy to permanently take away our rights would view Nelson statements as problematic, because it goes against their beliefs.

Praying for your own biased outcome and not the Lord God's will is an unrighteous prayer.

Correct he expressed his belief, not God's will. Anyone who is in a position of leadership, especially as the head of a church full of devout members who see his words as God's words, would know that they need to be careful not to abuse the power of that position and the trust that people put in that position. At the very least Pres. Nelson was irresponsible concerning the promotion of his personal vaccine beliefs, at worst it was the utter exercise of unrighteous dominion.

Saying follow the government is about the stupidest advice ever I must say. Governments are the worst, least trustful actors throughout history. Many a simpleton understands the concepts of the revolving door, greed, lust for power, regulatory bodies being captured, politicians being bought, Government itself being captured, etc. As well as understanding how science has turned into anti-science, conflicts of interest in the science, that the selectively promoted scientists were inconsistent, failed basic common sense, etc. (especially using hindsight), etc.

I never said that masks, vaccines, and lockdowns were all a part of a global conspiracy. For the most part, they are all the results of normal human emotions and motives such as fear, lust for power and gain, greed, political gain, just following the crowd, etc. Most so-called conspiracies come together as the convergence of intersecting interests. For instance, big pharma corps want money, governments want control, politicians want money and power, people want to conform, etc.

What I was saying was that masks, mass vaccination of experimental medical interventions, and lockdowns will end up having a greater negative toll on people than the virus.

Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to listen to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:36 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

And many died and or are suffering greatly for listening to RMN.

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:33 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:27 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:18 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:06 am

Because in many of those countries, they have different regimen to determine what constitutes fully vaccinated. Once you're past six months in some of these cases, you won't be considered fully vaccinated. Some countries as little as four months, others as long as a year. In a few other countries, a certificate showing that you had the virus but have since recovered, also counts in lieu of a vaccination, whereas in others, that won't help you.

So the Church, seeing a multitude of differing restrictions around the world, simplifies the regimen that they ask of foreign serving missionaries so that no one can be accused of flouting the rules, and no one can use that excuse to attack the Church afterwards for breaking the rules. In some countries, the results of that can be quite severe.

That makes no sense either. They practice overkill on the shots because it is easier than finding out what the actual regulations are for each country? Nope, not buying it. They don't give yellow fever injections to everyone to cover their bases, they only do in REQUIRED countries. They know the laws in every country and could easily follow them. No blanket boosters needed. They wanted boosters for all, not because all the countries needed it or might get mad. There is no good reason for ALL to get it. Unless we are just that lazy that we can't take time to find out what countries each require.

Yellow fever is not a global pandemic, as the areas that have yellow fever, malaria, and other diseases like that are localized to one region. If there were to be a mutated strain of yellow fever that started affecting everyone in temperate and polar climates, then yes, you could bet that the yellow fever requirement would be made global and not to just the countries that require it.

Coronavirus has hit virtually everywhere and you have a multitude of different approaches to handling the coronavirus. Some countries like Mexico have been VERY lenient. Others like Colombia, Peru, and Argentina were significantly stricter, to the point of not even letting in missionaries into their own chapels unless they presented the vaccination certificate, as one poster here complained about in the case of Colombia. Others still were just flat-out draconian. And then there's China who just blows everyone out of the water about how strict they have been.

So for something like this, of course the Church is going to apply the strictest standards as far as vaccination requirements go because COVID is a global problem. This is a good thing, because that lets the missionary work proceed in the best way possible.

Again, it is not required. The shots carry a risk. There was zero need and it was forced on those already serving for no good reason. You can make excuses till the cows come home, but it is wrong to force a shot that was NOT needed to carry on the work, and then act as if it was needed to carry on the work. Tired, old excuse.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:29 am Regardless of what one believes about the effectiveness of the vaccine, most world governments clearly weren't going to lift their restrictions without the development and widespread distribution of the vaccine first.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:46 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:47 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:07 am

If he prayed often for this vaccine to be developed quickly, then it is, and he believes his prayers have been answered, I don't see how it's manipulative for him to express this.



He expressed his belief that getting vaccinated was the right thing to do and actually led by example by getting vaccinated himself. He didn't tell anyone that they were a bad person if they chose not to be vaccinated.


He believes that medical experts and governments around the world are trying to do the best they can to stop the spread of Covid and that the vaccine is safe.

What do you want him to say. "Resist every effort by medical experts and your government to stop the spread of Covid?"



I can see why someone who believes that the Covid 19 vaccines, lock downs, travel restrictions, mask mandates, etc. are all part of a global conspiracy to permanently take away our rights would view Nelson statements as problematic, because it goes against their beliefs.

Praying for your own biased outcome and not the Lord God's will is an unrighteous prayer.

Correct he expressed his belief, not God's will. Anyone who is in a position of leadership, especially as the head of a church full of devout members who see his words as God's words, would know that they need to be careful not to abuse the power of that position and the trust that people put in that position. At the very least Pres. Nelson was irresponsible concerning the promotion of his personal vaccine beliefs, at worst it was the utter exercise of unrighteous dominion.

Saying follow the government is about the stupidest advice ever I must say. Governments are the worst, least trustful actors throughout history. Many a simpleton understands the concepts of the revolving door, greed, lust for power, regulatory bodies being captured, politicians being bought, Government itself being captured, etc. As well as understanding how science has turned into anti-science, conflicts of interest in the science, that the selectively promoted scientists were inconsistent, failed basic common sense, etc. (especially using hindsight), etc.

I never said that masks, vaccines, and lockdowns were all a part of a global conspiracy. For the most part, they are all the results of normal human emotions and motives such as fear, lust for power and gain, greed, political gain, just following the crowd, etc. Most so-called conspiracies come together as the convergence of intersecting interests. For instance, big pharma corps want money, governments want control, politicians want money and power, people want to conform, etc.

What I was saying was that masks, mass vaccination of experimental medical interventions, and lockdowns will end up having a greater negative toll on people than the virus.

Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to listen to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

1, he didn't have to say anything
2, he could have told people to be good stewards, to seek, knock and ask. To follow the spirit.
3 he could have promoted freedom and liberty
4 he could have told people to repent because all is not well in Zion
5 he should have said as a Doctor, your decisions are between you and your doctor
etc.

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 1:31 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:36 pm

Hiphopopotamus wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:20 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 11:13 pm

You don’t enjoy our public love affair?

I envy it

Actual footage of Atticus and I

That footage has now ruined my mental image of Atticus.
I had Atticus down as a frustrated spinster.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:52 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:29 am Regardless of what one believes about the effectiveness of the vaccine, most world governments clearly weren't going to lift their restrictions without the development and widespread distribution of the vaccine first.

And they can go to hell. You obviously do not see the corruption that has controlled this situation. The only “pandemic” is that of the people who still trust the governments of the world.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:53 am

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

It’s such a hard concept to grasp for some reason SMDH…

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:57 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:52 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 7:29 am Regardless of what one believes about the effectiveness of the vaccine, most world governments clearly weren't going to lift their restrictions without the development and widespread distribution of the vaccine first.

And they can go to hell. You obviously do not see the corruption that has controlled this situation. The only “pandemic” is that of the people who still trust the governments of the world.

OK. Now imagine if the prophet were to use this exact same language against the governments of the world today. Or if Jesus were to say to the Romans that they could go to hell and started to bash the Emperor, proclaiming Himself as the true King of the Earth.

Christianity would have been killed before it even begun. And in today's case, you would put targets on the backs of the vast majority of Church membership all around the world.

Maybe in Utah or Idaho such language COULD be useful, in such a setting that would only be broadcast in Utah or Idaho (until one realizes that with Youtube these messages are disseminated around the world anyways). But around the world, such language would needlessly bring upon them a religious persecution that is not needed, and turn more and more hearts into stone.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:15 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:05 am BTW, many pioneer saints died because the doctrine of obedience to leaders was pounded down their throats. The church, as they often do, only shares the faith-promoting aspects of the willie and martin companies. What they don't tell you is that Franklin Richards preached obedience to leaders, and then prophesied that the elements would be withheld and they'd arrive safely to Zion. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. And Briggy also tried to cast the blame on others, when it was at his insistence the Saints come across the plains.

Many Latter-day Saints died or suffered greatly for listening to Joseph Smith’s call to gather to Zion.

that's your go-to comparison?

It is a false equivalency.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:00 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:53 am

Luke wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:03 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 8:00 am Nelson wasn't saying to always trust the government. He was saying to the governments restrictions and recommendations when it comes to dealing with Covid. What else would you have him say?

Should he have called on the members around the world to defy their governments?

Yes...

It’s such a hard concept to grasp for some reason SMDH…

It's not a hard concept. Forming a Mormon version of a jihadi movement, especially one that is NOT backed by the Church at large, which is what you are advocating, will only lead to more pain and strife for those that participate in that movement.